Torah Observant Christians.

Whispered · Jan 19, 2020

Torah= means, "law, direction,teaching, instruction,or doctrine "
The Torah books of the Bible are: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy.

The Book of Psalms chapter 1
Blessed is the man[a] who walks not in the counsel of the wicked,nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers;
2 but his delight is in the law[b] of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night. "

49."One Torah shall be to him that is home-born, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you." The Book of Exodus chapter 12

The Book of James Chapter 2 The Sin of Partiality
1. My brothers,[a] show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory. 2 For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, 3 and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,” 4 have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? 5 Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who blaspheme the honorable name by which you were called?

8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. (Deuteronomy 1:17) 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

The Book of James chapter 1
23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. 24 For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. 25 But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.

The Book of Mark chapter 12
29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

The Book of Deuteronomy chapter 6

4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

The Books and chapters of Ezekiel 11:19,Ezekiel 36:26,Jeremiah 31:33,Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds,and write them on their hearts,and I will be their God,and they shall be my people.

The Torah is to be an inward sign of a living faith.
Now, the retort usually affixed to a post like mine is, well if the Torah is still valid, do you make sacrifices for your sins?
No!
Nor do the Jews today because the Torah forbids it.
And yet, a new covenant was to be sealed by blood. Jesus was the last sin sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. And His blood sealed the new covenant wherein as teacher of that in his short years ministering on earth, He said, if you love Him you will keep his commandments. Jesus is Yahweh, the giver of the law.
The entire Torah is the Royal Law.

Whispered · Jan 19, 2020

posthuman said:

you clearly don't comprehend what's being said either.

does the Torah command that you bring a goat, a lamb, or birds to the place of meeting, and give them to the priests for their blood to be shed at the altar whenever you sin, yes or no
is Leviticus 5 made of jots and tittles, yes or no
do you keep it, yes or no
does scripture say that if you do not keep ever single jot and tittle of the law you are guilty of breaking all of it, yes or no
so does in truth actually keep Torah, yes or no

i wonder if you hardly understand what Blik said either.
she made 3 statements.
the first is relevant and i replied to it. she confessed that she doesn't keep the jot and tittle of the Torah, she accepts that Christ has done away with it by establishing Himself as the atonement for sin.
the second was an ignorant personal attack against me.
the third was a diversion away from the fact that she doesn't observe every jot and tittle and she spoke without knowledge.

is it because i did not respond immediately to baseless insults and ignorant diversions, you accuse me of being a liar?
or is it because you are having trouble following the discussion so you though best recourse is to slander me?

but since you objected i wrote another post and answered to Blik about the mockery she had also posted, that the wise should have overlooked without mention. happy?

Oh, I comprehend what you're doing when you say things like, "So you're saying..." Which is why the example of, the sky is blue.

This might help you. If not, perhaps it will help those who choose to read you in your, "So you're saying, " manner of speaking, when you choose to speak in that way to a member.

posthuman · Jan 19, 2020

Whispered said:

yeah, duh. we know.

Whispered said:

even Leviticus 5?
do you keep it?

all the jots and tittles?

Numbers 15? the jots and the tittles? do you keep it?

if you do not keep all the Torah, are you really Torah-observant?

simple questions.

Whispered · Jan 19, 2020

posthuman said:

You know. Don't presume everyone does and therein use, we.

Wow.
And for those who take the time to read my post addressing Torah at length.....thank you.

posthuman · Jan 19, 2020

Whispered said:

is that a yes or a no?

posthuman · Jan 19, 2020

Whispered said:

is this your answer? same as the unbelieving Jews answer?
you don't keep Torah because there is no more temple?
but if there was a temple, you would make animal sacrifices there, as the jots and tittles of the Torah instruct?
is that your answer? that's the unbelieving Jew's answer. that's the answer in the link you put.

if it is why are you so full of venom towards me? it's exactly what i said in posts #117 & #118 -- no one keeps Torah; it's impossible to keep Torah, but some people keep some of it and pretend they are 'Torah observant' though they aren't, and others rationalize away parts of it saying they are symbolic or otherwise 'removed' from being necessary to carry out. why the animosity? you're confessing what i said is true, and agreeing with it.

point being, the 'jots and tittles' argument is hypocrisy coming from anyone claiming to be Torah-observing because they do not keep all the jots and tittles themselves, therefore though they boast in the law, the law condemns them.

if you are in Christ you are not under law.
if you are under Torah, you stand condemned by it with no remedy.
that's the state of unbelieving Israel. they don't mock the fact; they weep over it - will they be converted?

posthuman · Jan 19, 2020

posthuman said:

reposting just to keep track of what i was attacked for.

Whispered · Jan 19, 2020

posthuman said:

Venom? You're going to play the victim when you are the one on this attack? Your venom. Your animus. Your attack.
Is that how you avoid admitting when you're wrong about Exegesis and the scripture concerning any one point?

Ask yourself, why do you get so mad at people who don't believe what you claim you do in your posts? Have you ever fully agreed with anyone's understanding of scripture?

Why are you so angry? Why do you get angry when your understanding of scripture is proven to be in error?
It's quite simple. If the law has zero importance to the Christian, why did Jesus tell us that if we love Him , who was God, we will keep His commandments that he reiterated in the new testament, after they can be found in the Torah of the old?
Was Jesus wrong and you right?

SUNDOWNSAM · Jan 20, 2020

Judges1318 said:

-----------------------

Judges, I do not see the Scriptures saying to gather together on the Sabbath, but what I do see is that on the Sabbath day, the day that God specified to keep holy they took that day to gather together to teach the word of God. Yeshua on the Sabbath day at times appeared to be in the synagogue, but we read from the Scriptures that he was healing outside the synagogue on the Sabbath day.

What I am trying to convey as well is that a person does not need to go to a church building, they can gather together at a home and have their teachings and worships. Nowadays, what you are seeing in these so called churches is entertainment and generating wealth by marketing by marketing the name of Yeshua. How can a pastor justify himself in a yearly income of one million dollars? How can a pastor justified himself to earn a fee to preach in a church that he is invited to? To my recollection from what I heard on youtube, that a person has to pay $1000.00 to go play golf with john macarthur,

It is better for people to gather at home or at a facility than to go to a church building.

Deuteronomy · Jan 20, 2020

rily51jean said:

Hello rily51jean, as long as obeying the Law is understood as something that we do 'because' we are Christians (~NOT~ to either become or remain Christians), I think obeying it is what we should be doing. Our obedience to the Law (or the lack thereof) helps us know where we are in our walk with Him, or as you said, shows us where our allegiance lies.

God bless you!

~Deut
p.s. - here is one of my favorite quotes about the Law of God as it relates to coming to saving faith in Christ .. cf Galatians 3:24.

eternally-gratefull · Jan 20, 2020

not sure it has been said before, (have not read whole thread)

Gal 3: 19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, [f]kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our [g]tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

there is no need to Go back to the tutor if the tutor has completed its job (led us to salvation)

that’s the purpose of the law

whoever is trying to put themselves under the law to follow It?

well paul tells us about them also....

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed iseveryone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

Judges1318 · Jan 20, 2020

SUNDOWNSAM said:

What they did when they assembled together I do not know. I just know that according to the law the Sabbath day was a day of sacred assembly.

"the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, a day of sacred assembly." - Leviticus 23:3

SUNDOWNSAM · Jan 20, 2020

Judges1318 said:

---------------

I agree with you and what is more powerful is that God said to remember it and keep it holy.

Blik · Jan 20, 2020

posthuman said:

And what did God do about the animal sacrifices when His Son was sacrificed? Read scripture. Do you think you could manage the world a lot better than God?

I most certainly did not mean to attack you personally. I truly believe the Lord and it seems to me that God who created the world can be trusted with everything He does and we can learn from Him, even from everything God did that is explained in the OT. It seems that no matter what I say you and I do not understand each other.

I talk of God using symbols, and when you respond the idea of symbols is twisted out of shape. we did not communicate. I think we have a temple and blood for sacrifice but not in the way you repeat that thought. I think the Torah explains God's ways and you speak of it in a completely different way. God ordered stoning and I think the way that was managed by following the Lord's way was just. Do you?

We disagree about scripture, and that is OK.

Blik · Jan 20, 2020

posthuman said:

I don't think you have any right to ask personal questions on a public network, asking if people keep what God asks of them. You know perfectly well that it is not possible for a human to keep all the laws. If you are a saved Christian then you go to Christ and repent of your sins asking for forgiveness. What would your response be if someone asked if you kept to your repentance? If you are asking if those who believe it is God who speaks in the Torah if they keep the part of the Torah that scripture tells us should not be kept any longer, then no. When we believe in scripture we believe in following scripture.

posthuman · Jan 20, 2020

Blik said:

exactly as i have been saying..

Then said He, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that He may establish the second.

(Hebrews 10:9)

there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins

(Hebrews 10:26)

Blik said:

to the Israelites under Moses even though these things were symbolic they were most certainly to be literally, physically, corporeally carried out and physically, literally, actually performed. the commandment to circumcise males for example is 100% a commandment to do this in the flesh, physically, literally. it has a meaning, and it functions as a symbol, yes. but if you were a male and you were uncircumcised in the flesh then you are absolutely not in any way shape or form 'Torah observant' no matter how much you may appeal to it being 'symbolic'

i didn't 'twist out of shape' anything you said -- you replied to whether or not you physically, literally, actually carry out the things in Torah that are literally, physically, actually commanded to do by saying 'they are symbolic' and so you don't actually do them. that is confession on your part that you do not keep Torah, which has been my argument from the beginning. you might keep parts of Torah, but you brush aside many jots and many tittles saying they are only symbols, no longer actual commands - which again, has been my statement from the beginning. posts #117 & #118.

no one who competes in a race of 10 miles, and only runs 3, saying 'the other 7 are symbolic i ran them in my heart' can legitimately say they finished the race. that is the situation with Torah. no one keeps it. it is not possible to keep it; see the argument of the unbelieving Jews in Whispered's link: they confess they do not keep Torah because there is no temple therefore it is impossible that they keep Torah. the unbelieving Jews at least do not pretend they are keeping it; they know they are not. at least they are not hypocrites in that sense - no, they know, and they weep.

The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming -- not the realities themselves.

(Hebrews 10:1)

These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

(Colossians 2:17)

this is what a Christian keeps: the light, not the darkness. the substance, not the shadow. the former things are passed away, and the morning has broken

posthuman · Jan 20, 2020

Blik said:

do you believe God asks of you to keep Leviticus 5?
do you believe God asks of you to keep Numbers 15?

these are not 'merely symbols' to the person under Torah. they are literal, physical ordinances to be literally, physically carried out in the flesh.
do you believe God requires these from you?

Whispered · Jan 20, 2020

Deuteronomy said:

Spurgeon was a Calvinist you realize. The only lost to whom he referred was to the pre-selected, per his Calvinist delusion of how God saves.

posthuman · Jan 20, 2020

Whispered said:

i'm sorry, where did that happen?

let's restate my argument once again for the sake of the simple:

breaking one part of Torah, even the least, makes you guilty of all ((James 2:10))
Torah requires things that are impossible to keep without the temple
therefore no one keeps Torah, and anyone who says they do is hypocritical.

i said this, and you told me it was unscriptural - see post #154 - but you never substantiated your accusation; you just made it, without basis.

Blik agrees with me:

Blik said:

and you agree with me:

Whispered said:

so what is this unspecified error you are now accusing me of?

Whispered · Jan 20, 2020

SUNDOWNSAM said:

And furthmore, Jesus did not say anything about doing away with the Sabbath. In fact, the Apostles and Jesus kept the Sabbath, and the Apostles did so after Jesus departed to Heaven.
If the Sabbath mattered not after Jesus, they would have known this because Jesus would have taught it so. Instead, Jesus admonished, if you love me keep my commandments. And this after He clarified that the Sabbath was made for us, not we for the Sabbath.
I think many anti-Sabbath people ignore that part, or have not actually read it in the scripture.
I'd also think that those who should actually be under scrutiny are the one's that are so upset people honor the Sabbath.

Why would anyone be upset by that? Really.
Especially if they go to church on Sunday.
Makes no sense.

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