What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Dec 30, 2019
1,266
290
83
After the defeat of the ac and his army is a period of 1000 yrs.

A rest. A peiod of 1000 of 7000, a 7th "day" rest.
We will rule and reign with Jesus for 1,000 years. So the enemy has to be defeated for the Kingdom age to begin. That is what we see in the world today. The kingdoms of this world are becoming the kingdoms of God. The enemy knows that his time is short and he is not giving up without a fight to take as many people with him into perdition. That is why there is more of the Power and Glory of God available to us now, then ever before. We are told: "For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." (Habakkuk2:14)
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
We will rule and reign with Jesus for 1,000 years. So the enemy has to be defeated for the Kingdom age to begin. That is what we see in the world today. The kingdoms of this world are becoming the kingdoms of God. The enemy knows that his time is short and he is not giving up without a fight to take as many people with him into perdition. That is why there is more of the Power and Glory of God available to us now, then ever before. We are told: "For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." (Habakkuk2:14)
The next events are rapture and gt.
Ac ruling the masses.
Great deception.

In the 10 virgin parable neither the wise or foolish were decieved.

Just apothetic and lazy. (The foolish ones)
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
My son is very good at coming up with a formula. I wanted to know how much information the atoms in the body could hold. If we want to store one bit of information in each atom then the atoms in the human body could hold all the information on the internet 22,000 times over. I had someone on line do the math and they came up with the same results. This was a challenge to show if memory could survive death and I think I showed that not only could our memory survive death, it could survive cremation also.

Moore's Law predicted that the amount of data that can be stored on a microchip would double every 18 months. Now we are down to one bit per atom. If Moore's law is going to continue then we will have to find a way to fit more then one bit of information in an atom. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/03/170309120521.htm

The other one we worked on was the spindown rate of the earth and the recession rate of the moon. We can go back to see when the earth and moon had their collision. Also this is the cause of our tide, our season and the weather patterns that we have. He works with a lot of people that are a lot smarter then he is, but he is really good at coming up with formulas that makes it easy to figure something out. Then as you say, once you have the formula the computer can do all the math.
fascinating stuff!!
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
We will rule and reign with Jesus for 1,000 years. So the enemy has to be defeated for the Kingdom age to begin. That is what we see in the world today. The kingdoms of this world are becoming the kingdoms of God. The enemy knows that his time is short and he is not giving up without a fight to take as many people with him into perdition. That is why there is more of the Power and Glory of God available to us now, then ever before. We are told: "For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." (Habakkuk2:14)
I would say so.

Thank You Jesus!!!!
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
1,609
113
In Mat 24:9, who did Jesus say would die for His name's sake? Who was Jesus talking to? Look at the 3 companion passages. The answer is found in Mk 13: 3 "Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately..." Thus, depending on which of the four He was looking at, He was talking to them, not some distant audience. Thus we should expect to find examples of the below happening to some, or all, of the above 4.

Mat 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

Mark 13:9 “But watch out for yourselves, for they will deliver you up to councils, and you will be beaten in the synagogues. You will be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony to them. 10 And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations. 11 But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. 12 Now brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 13 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake.

Luke 21:12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. 13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake.

Taking all three companion passages together we know that of the group of Peter, James, John and Andrew some of these 4 were put to death. History tells us 3 of them were. All were subject to persecution. We have several examples of some being delivered up to councils, synagogues and prisons. Let's see if we can find fulfillment of the above with these 4.

Peter: Acts 4 is the first example of Peter and John being arrested and brought before the Jews and threatened. We find Peter in prison in Acts 12. We all know the predictions Jesus had for Peter being led away when he was old. Peter was brought before Nero and later killed by Nero.

James: James, the brother of John was killed by King Herod by sword in Acts 12. James, the half-brother of Christ was thrown from the temple roof in 66 AD and later that same day, the Romans arrived. Since Peter and Andrew were brothers, it is reasonable to assume brothers John and James were the other 2. Thus James, the brother of John, was the first of the 4 to be martyred.

John: Was arrested with Peter in Acts 4. Early church tradition says that Nero attempted to kill John by dumping him in a vat of boiling oil, but John was unharmed thus Nero banished him to Patmos.

Andrew: The Bible says little about Andrew but church tradition claims Andrew was martyred by crucifixion in the city of Patras (Patræ) in Achaea. Early texts, such as the Acts of Andrew known to Gregory of Tours describe Andrew as bound, not nailed, to a Latin Cross of the kind on which Jesus is said to have been crucified; yet a tradition developed that Andrew had been crucified on a cross of the form called crux decussata (X-shaped cross, or "saltire"), now commonly known as a "Saint Andrew's Cross" - supposedly at his own request, as he deemed himself unworthy to be crucified on the same type of cross as Jesus had been.

Thus in these four disciples, the one Christ spoke to in the above 3 companion passage fit every things Christ predicted. Thus there is no need to keep looking for future fulfillment to peoples thousands of years later.

This is I think because you are so accustomed to thinking of only defending your camp against the dispies which distracts you from seeing some things. Not that I see you as unlearned in fact I enjoy speaking with you because you seem more learned than others in your camp.

Most when they look at the O.D. see the Jews during the Jewish war taking the brunt of the G.T.(peterist) if Disp. then they see Israel but your the first I've seen who narrowed it down to only four. As for my self I see this https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+7&version=KJV ...
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
This is I think because you are so accustomed to thinking of only defending your camp against the dispies which distracts you from seeing some things. Not that I see you as unlearned in fact I enjoy speaking with you because you seem more learned than others in your camp.

Most when they look at the O.D. see the Jews during the Jewish war taking the brunt of the G.T.(peterist) if Disp. then they see Israel but your the first I've seen who narrowed it down to only four. As for my self I see this https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+7&version=KJV ...
If you, me and 3 others were having coffee and you asked me about a conference I asked you to speak at a few months from now and I started off telling you some things and said, "you" this and "you" that, would you apply it to 3 other dudes who wouldn't be born for another 1900+ years?

My main point is that everything Jesus said happened to them, just they way He said it would. They were hauled in before synagogues, kings, etc. They went to prison and they were killed. They spoke with the power of the HS. If it all fits back then, why move it thousands of years into their future especially when it was the destruction of the temple which was in focus?

Thanks for your kind words.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
1,609
113
If you, me and 3 others were having coffee and you asked me about a conference I asked you to speak at a few months from now and I started off telling you some things and said, "you" this and "you" that, would you apply it to 3 other dudes who wouldn't be born for another 1900+ years?

My main point is that everything Jesus said happened to them, just they way He said it would. They were hauled in before synagogues, kings, etc. They went to prison and they were killed. They spoke with the power of the HS. If it all fits back then, why move it thousands of years into their future especially when it was the destruction of the temple which was in focus?

Thanks for your kind words.

This is hypothetical which is fine I suppose but I am not in disagreement that those disciples did not face the things he said. When I made my post to Jimbone #1352 I purposely stated in bold (Disciples/Church) as who was to face the great tribulation.

The Jews in the siege(ad66-70) are not those being spoken of in Revelation 7:9 they are out of every (nation,tribe,peoples and tongues) https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/7-9.htm which excludes them from the Disciples alone. In Revelation 7:14 the ones dressed in white robes are the ones coming out of the great tribulation and are too numerable to be counted(vrs 9). https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/7-14.htm
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
1,609
113
Your seeing the Jews undergoing the GT and not who Jesus said in Matthew 24:9 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/24.htm

In fact in ad70 those who endured the siege of Jerusalem are seen by many as such in this but in Matthew 24:9 he said "...they will deliver you(the disciples/Church) and that they would be hated for the name of him(Jesus) so bare in mind that 1.1 million Jews died in the siege and 6 million in ww2(which is sorrowful) but of those not one of them died for Jesus name's sake(they don't believe Jesus is the Messiah we do and we face the GT).


forwarded for reference...
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
This is hypothetical which is fine I suppose but I am not in disagreement that those disciples did not face the things he said. When I made my post to Jimbone #1352 I purposely stated in bold (Disciples/Church) as who was to face the great tribulation.

The Jews in the siege(ad66-70) are not those being spoken of in Revelation 7:9 they are out of every (nation,tribe,peoples and tongues) https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/7-9.htm which excludes them from the Disciples alone. In Revelation 7:14 the ones dressed in white robes are the ones coming out of the great tribulation and are too numerable to be counted(vrs 9). https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/7-14.htm
All false doctrine carries alongside of it an impossibility.

Biblical impossibility,not mental.

The Bible is not a mental book.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
This is hypothetical which is fine I suppose but I am not in disagreement that those disciples did not face the things he said. When I made my post to Jimbone #1352 I purposely stated in bold (Disciples/Church) as who was to face the great tribulation.

The Jews in the siege(ad66-70) are not those being spoken of in Revelation 7:9 they are out of every (nation,tribe,peoples and tongues) https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/7-9.htm which excludes them from the Disciples alone. In Revelation 7:14 the ones dressed in white robes are the ones coming out of the great tribulation and are too numerable to be counted(vrs 9). https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/7-14.htm
We weren't discussing those in Rev 7:9. We were discussing those who Jesus was discussing in Mat 24:9-14. Sounds like we are in agreement then regarding Mat 24:9-14, that Jesus was directly telling the 4 Jews He was speaking to what would happen to them. More broadly, we could say He was speaking about all of His disciples, save Judas? Yes, the early church also suffered similar treatment but it isn't clear to me His statements here were more broadly directed at the future church although I do think He says so in John when He talks about them, "not being of the world, so the world hates them." I am open to Jesus speaking more broadly about the first century church up to 70 AD but not beyond that because the "great tribulation" was the siege and destruction of Jerusalem and all of Judea which ended in 70 AD. Jesus makes clear this is the region to flee His coming 70 AD wrath.

If you want to discuss Rev 7:9, we can. There are two groups mentioned in Rev 7, 1) the 144K and 2) the great multitude. Let's discuss them both because it's important.

The 144,000: were saved Jews who were sealed and protected from the BEAST (Rome) and the wrath that was about to come. The 144K was the Jerusalem church which was located on Mount Zion at the time, the place where David lived. They were the believers who the Jews in Jerusalem hated and persecuted and often killed. This church was massive and it was led by James, the half-brother of Christ, whom the priests murdered and on the same day Vespasian arrived. These are the ones who fled to the mountains, over them, and eventually settled in Pella (the place prepared for them) which was previously destroyed by Rome and they helped rebuild the city. Since the city had already been defeated, Rome did not return. I believe Christ preached in Pella (Mat 4:25) so that there would be a base of support for the 144K, whom He protected. These were strictly Jewish believers, the pilgrims of the dispersion, as Peter calls them in 1 Peter 1:1. They are from all 12 tribes, including the "10 lost tribes," which scattered when Babylon fell. They settled throughout the Roman Empire. They were then saved through the work of the disciples who went out and "preached in all the creation that [is] under the heaven, of which I became -- I Paul -- a ministrant (Col 1:23)."

It is important to remember that all devout Jews, including Christian Jews, would return to Jerusalem for the important Jewish festivals. This return was called a pilgrimage. Rather than going to the temple as non-believing Jews would, they went to the Church on Mount Zion. They were safe there. If you've ever been to Mount Zion, you'd understand why. This is also were the place of the last supper was and where David's tomb is to this day. Christian Jews stayed together for safety from the unbelieving Jews who hated them and tried to kill them as often as they could. These 144K did NOT receive the Mark of the Beast. They were NOT in an unholy alliance with Rome as the rest of Jerusalem was. The population of the Jerusalem church would swell to 5X (from these pilgrims) during important feasts including the Feast of Passover, this according to Eusebius who cites Hegesippus, who is in agreement with Clement and Josephus. Notice Eusebius notes that at the time, the return of Christ was imminent?

12. The aforesaid Scribes and Pharisees therefore placed James upon the pinnacle of the temple, and cried out to him and said: ‘Thou just one, in whom we ought all to have confidence, forasmuch as the people are led astray after Jesus, the crucified one, declare to us, what is the gate of Jesus.’

13. And he answered with a loud voice, ‘Why do ye ask me concerning Jesus, the Son of Man? He himself sitteth in heaven at the right hand of the great Power, and is about to come upon the clouds of heaven.’

16. So they went up and threw down the just man, and said to each other, ‘Let us stone James the Just.’ And they began to stone him, for he was not killed by the fall; but he turned and knelt down and said, ‘I entreat thee, Lord God our Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.’

17. And while they were thus stoning him one of the priests of the sons of Rechab, the son of the Rechabites, who are mentioned by Jeremiah the prophet, cried out, saying, ‘Cease, what do ye? The just one prayeth for you.’

18. And one of them, who was a fuller, took the club with which he beat out clothes and struck the just man on the head. And thus he suffered martyrdom. And they buried him on the spot, by the temple, and his monument still remains by the temple. He became a true witness, both to Jews and Greeks, that Jesus is the Christ. And immediately Vespasian besieged them.


When Vespasian left, the 144K fled before Titus arrived in early 70 AD.

THE GREAT MULTITUDE:

This group was, "a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes." This group, from all over the known world (Roman Empire), "are the ones who come out of the great tribulation" to be before the throne of God in Heaven. This group is made up of all those who were trapped in the city and came to Christ during the great tribulation. They finally realized they were wrong and recognized what was happening to them. They died by the hundreds of thousands but repented before they died. Among them could also be all martyrs, Jew and Gentile, including those killed in Rome by Nero from the time of Christ to His return. It's interesting that the language here is eerily similar to the language used by Isaiah in Isa 65.
 
Dec 30, 2019
1,266
290
83
The earth and moon never collided.
The moon is moving away from the earth. If you go back 4.5 billion years then they would have occupied the same space at the same time. This dance we have between the Earth and the Moon is a unique situation and this explains why we have the weather patterns that we do. The moon holds the earth at a tilt and this is the reason for our seasons. We know there is a 50 degree difference between temperature at the poles compared to the equator. We are on an axis so there is a north and a south. East and West just goes on forever. That is why we can say: as far as the east is from the west. This should all be common information for any high school graduate. But the school system is busy wasting our time with a bunch of nonsense instead of giving people the education they are getting paid to provide for them. I just got a copy of Neil DeGrasse Tyson's "Astrophyisics for young people in a hurry". Even they could use that for a text book in our school system. So there is no excuse for not teaching this stuff.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
Chapter XIII.—Narrative concerning the Prince of the Edessenes. Eusebius, Church History:

18. And afterward Abgarus said, Thou, O Thaddeus, doest these things with the power of God, and we marvel. But, in addition to these things, I pray thee to inform me in regard to the coming of Jesus, how he was born; and in regard to his power, by what power he performed those deeds of which I have heard.

19. And Thaddeus said, Now indeed will I keep silence, since I have been sent to proclaim the word publicly. But tomorrow assemble for me all thy citizens, and I will preach in their presence and sow among them the word of God, concerning the coming of Jesus, how he was born; and concerning his mission, for what purpose he was sent by the Father; and concerning the power of his works, and the mysteries which he proclaimed in the world, and by what power he did these things; and concerning his new preaching, and his abasement and humiliation, and how he humbled himself, and died and debased his divinity and was crucified, and descended into Hades,228 and burst the bars which from eternity had not been broken,229 and raised the dead; for he descended alone, but rose with many, and thus ascended to his Father.230

228 This is probably the earliest distinct and formal statement of the descent into Hades; but no special stress is laid upon it as a new doctrine, and it is stated so much as a matter of course as to show that it was commonly accepted at Edessa at the time of the writing of these records, that is certainly as early as the third century. Justin, Irenæus, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Tertullian, &c., all witness to the belief of the Church in this doctrine, though it did not form an article in any of the older creeds, and appeared in the East first in certain Arian confessions at about 360 a.d. In the West it appeared first in the Aquileian creed, from which it was transferred to the Apostles’ creed in the fifth century or later.
The doctrine is stated in a very fantastic shape in the Gospel of Nicodemus, part II. (Ante-Nicene Fathers, Am. ed. VIII. p. 435 sq.), which is based upon an apocryphal gospel of the second century, according to Tischendorf. In it the descent of Christ into Hades and his ascent with a great multitude are dwelt upon at length. Compare Pearson, On the Creed, p. 340 sq.; Schaff’s Creeds of Christendom, I. p. 46; and especially, Plumptre’s Spirits in Prison, p. 77 sq.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
We weren't discussing those in Rev 7:9. We were discussing those who Jesus was discussing in Mat 24:9-14. Sounds like we are in agreement then regarding Mat 24:9-14, that Jesus was directly telling the 4 Jews He was speaking to what would happen to them. More broadly, we could say He was speaking about all of His disciples, save Judas? Yes, the early church also suffered similar treatment but it isn't clear to me His statements here were more broadly directed at the future church although I do think He says so in John when He talks about them, "not being of the world, so the world hates them." I am open to Jesus speaking more broadly about the first century church up to 70 AD but not beyond that because the "great tribulation" was the siege and destruction of Jerusalem and all of Judea which ended in 70 AD. Jesus makes clear this is the region to flee His coming 70 AD wrath.

If you want to discuss Rev 7:9, we can. There are two groups mentioned in Rev 7, 1) the 144K and 2) the great multitude. Let's discuss them both because it's important.

The 144,000: were saved Jews who were sealed and protected from the BEAST (Rome) and the wrath that was about to come. The 144K was the Jerusalem church which was located on Mount Zion at the time, the place where David lived. They were the believers who the Jews in Jerusalem hated and persecuted and often killed. This church was massive and it was led by James, the half-brother of Christ, whom the priests murdered and on the same day Vespasian arrived. These are the ones who fled to the mountains, over them, and eventually settled in Pella (the place prepared for them) which was previously destroyed by Rome and they helped rebuild the city. Since the city had already been defeated, Rome did not return. I believe Christ preached in Pella (Mat 4:25) so that there would be a base of support for the 144K, whom He protected. These were strictly Jewish believers, the pilgrims of the dispersion, as Peter calls them in 1 Peter 1:1. They are from all 12 tribes, including the "10 lost tribes," which scattered when Babylon fell. They settled throughout the Roman Empire. They were then saved through the work of the disciples who went out and "preached in all the creation that [is] under the heaven, of which I became -- I Paul -- a ministrant (Col 1:23)."

It is important to remember that all devout Jews, including Christian Jews, would return to Jerusalem for the important Jewish festivals. This return was called a pilgrimage. Rather than going to the temple as non-believing Jews would, they went to the Church on Mount Zion. They were safe there. If you've ever been to Mount Zion, you'd understand why. This is also were the place of the last supper was and where David's tomb is to this day. Christian Jews stayed together for safety from the unbelieving Jews who hated them and tried to kill them as often as they could. These 144K did NOT receive the Mark of the Beast. They were NOT in an unholy alliance with Rome as the rest of Jerusalem was. The population of the Jerusalem church would swell to 5X (from these pilgrims) during important feasts including the Feast of Passover, this according to Eusebius who cites Hegesippus, who is in agreement with Clement and Josephus. Notice Eusebius notes that at the time, the return of Christ was imminent?

12. The aforesaid Scribes and Pharisees therefore placed James upon the pinnacle of the temple, and cried out to him and said: ‘Thou just one, in whom we ought all to have confidence, forasmuch as the people are led astray after Jesus, the crucified one, declare to us, what is the gate of Jesus.’

13. And he answered with a loud voice, ‘Why do ye ask me concerning Jesus, the Son of Man? He himself sitteth in heaven at the right hand of the great Power, and is about to come upon the clouds of heaven.’

16. So they went up and threw down the just man, and said to each other, ‘Let us stone James the Just.’ And they began to stone him, for he was not killed by the fall; but he turned and knelt down and said, ‘I entreat thee, Lord God our Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.’

17. And while they were thus stoning him one of the priests of the sons of Rechab, the son of the Rechabites, who are mentioned by Jeremiah the prophet, cried out, saying, ‘Cease, what do ye? The just one prayeth for you.’

18. And one of them, who was a fuller, took the club with which he beat out clothes and struck the just man on the head. And thus he suffered martyrdom. And they buried him on the spot, by the temple, and his monument still remains by the temple. He became a true witness, both to Jews and Greeks, that Jesus is the Christ. And immediately Vespasian besieged them.

When Vespasian left, the 144K fled before Titus arrived in early 70 AD.

THE GREAT MULTITUDE:

This group was, "a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes." This group, from all over the known world (Roman Empire), "are the ones who come out of the great tribulation" to be before the throne of God in Heaven. This group is made up of all those who were trapped in the city and came to Christ during the great tribulation. They finally realized they were wrong and recognized what was happening to them. They died by the hundreds of thousands but repented before they died. Among them could also be all martyrs, Jew and Gentile, including those killed in Rome by Nero from the time of Christ to His return. It's interesting that the language here is eerily similar to the language used by Isaiah in Isa 65.
Wow. That is bogus.

The 144k are firstfruits that are found in heaven DURING THE GT.

The reason they are firstfruits is because they PRECEDE THE MAIN JEWISH HARVEST.
All DURING THE GT. (Rev 14)

In your imagination you left out firstfruits and the fact that the flying scorpions were ordered not to eat green vegetation or sting the 144 k.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
Here is your famine and confirmation that the Gospel was preached to the ends of the earth. We see this is how they wrote back then. The "world" was the known world, not the entire planet of which they did not know.

Chapter III.—The Doctrine of Christ soon spread throughout All the World.

1. Thus, under the influence of heavenly power, and with the divine co-operation, the doctrine of the Saviour, like the rays of the sun, quickly illumined the whole world;283 and straightway, in accordance with the divine Scriptures,284 the voice of the inspired evangelists and apostles went forth through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world.

2. In every city and village, churches were quickly established, filled with multitudes of people like a replenished threshing-floor. And those whose minds, in consequence of errors which had descended to them from their forefathers, were fettered by the ancient disease of idolatrous superstition, were, by the power of Christ operating through the teaching and the wonderful works of his disciples, set free, as it were, from terrible masters, and found a release from the most cruel bondage. They renounced with abhorrence every species of demoniacal polytheism, and confessed that there was only one God, the creator of all things, and him they honored with the rites of true piety, through the inspired and rational worship which has been planted by our Saviour among men.

3. But the divine grace being now poured out upon the rest of the nations, Cornelius, of Cæsarea in Palestine, with his whole house, through a divine revelation and the agency of Peter, first received faith in Christ;285 and after him a multitude of other Greeks in Antioch,286 to whom those who were scattered by the persecution of Stephen had preached the Gospel. When the church of Antioch was now increasing and abounding, and a multitude of prophets from Jerusalem were on the ground,287 among them Barnabas and Paul and in addition many other brethren, the name of Christians first sprang up there,288 as from a fresh and life-giving fountain.289

4. And Agabus, one of the prophets who was with them, uttered a prophecy concerning the famine which was about to take place,290 and Paul and Barnabas were sent to relieve the necessities of the brethren.291
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
Wow. That is bogus.

The 144k are firstfruits that are found in heaven DURING THE GT.

The reason they are firstfruits is because they PRECEDE THE MAIN JEWISH HARVEST.
All DURING THE GT. (Rev 14)

In your imagination you left out firstfruits and the fact that the flying scorpions were ordered not to eat green vegetation or sting the 144 k.
They are NOT in heaven. They are on Mount Zion. You've shown us all that you have zero discerment skills but can't you at least read and comprehend basic English?

“Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

If they were in heaven, they wouldn't need to be sealed or protected, now would they?
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
1,609
113
Wow. That is bogus.

The 144k are firstfruits that are found in heaven DURING THE GT.

The reason they are firstfruits is because they PRECEDE THE MAIN JEWISH HARVEST.
All DURING THE GT. (Rev 14)

In your imagination you left out firstfruits and the fact that the flying scorpions were ordered not to eat green vegetation or sting the 144 k.
The error I think is to protect an preterist camps position it must constantly be modified. It is apparent in Eusebius and Ephiphanius statements of Pella that the Ebionites and Nazroines who were Judaizers would have fled to Pella. Josephus states in Wars 2,18.1 that Pella was destroyed by the "Jews" so I suppose it is in error in post #1391 that the Romans destroyed it(the Jews did). http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-2.html

If Eusebius or Ephiphanius had read Wars 3,chapter 3 paragraph 5 they would have known that Pella was in the time of Josephus still within the boundaries of Roman Judea, http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-3.html So Pella being in Judea would still be not safe for Christians and more importantly within the place Jesus told them to flee(Judea) . This was some of the issues of the criticism of Eusebius by others after he wrote his works in that he fabricated things or was outright a lair. Search for "criticism Eusebius" for these there are many.

If these things were an fulfillment of the 144,000 or the multitude so large they could not be numbered then this would pose even a larger problem in that the Jews did not worship Rome/Caesar they revolted instead so there is no fulfillment. Then afterwards if those who were in the siege in Jerusalem repented and received Jesus as the Christ the beast(Rome) won the war and Jesus did not cut those days short.

This though is only ones opinion that is Josephus who was there and records the details of what went on in Jerusalem does not speak of an mass conversion of Jews to Christ but instead that the Jews died to the utmost to defend the Temple this against Titus plea to not pollute it themselves.

Wars 6,2,4 (Titus speaking), "...,that I do not force you to defile this your sanctuary...." then said he would see that no Roman would enter it if they would change the place they would fight and would endeavor to preserve their Holy House whether the Jews would or not. https://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-6.html Hence these Jews did not convert to Christianity but rather the other they remained in denial as Josephus described.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
Here Eusebius makes clear that the writings of the disciples were in agreement with those of Josephus concerning all the calamities that were coming upon the Jews because of their crimes against Christ. There is no other future predicted!!

4. Hear what he says in the second book of his Jewish War, where he writes as follows:316 “Pilate being sent to Judea as procurator by Tiberius, secretly carried veiled images of the emperor, called ensigns,317 to Jerusalem by night. The following day this caused the greatest disturbance among the Jews. For those who were near were confounded at the sight, beholding their laws, as it were, trampled under foot. For they allow no image to be set up in their city.”

5. Comparing these things with the writings of the evangelists, you will see that it was not long before there came upon them the penalty for the exclamation which they had uttered under the same Pilate, when they cried out that they had no other king than Cæsar.318

6. The same writer further records that after this another calamity overtook them. He writes as follows:319 “After this he stirred up another tumult by making use of the holy treasure, which is called Corban,320 in the construction of an aqueduct 110three hundred stadia in length.321

7. The multitude were greatly displeased at it, and when Pilate was in Jerusalem they surrounded his tribunal and gave utterance to loud complaints. But he, anticipating the tumult, had distributed through the crowd armed soldiers disguised in citizen’s clothing, forbidding them to use the sword, but commanding them to strike with clubs those who should make an outcry. To them he now gave the preconcerted signal from the tribunal. And the Jews being beaten, many of them perished in consequence of the blows, while many others were trampled under foot by their own countrymen in their flight, and thus lost their lives. But the multitude, overawed by the fate of those who were slain, held their peace.”

8. In addition to these the same author records322 many other tumults which were stirred up in Jerusalem itself, and shows that from that time seditions and wars and mischievous plots followed each other in quick succession, and never ceased in the city and in all Judea until finally the siege of Vespasian overwhelmed them. Thus the divine vengeance overtook the Jews for the crimes which they dared to commit against Christ.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
1,609
113
I would suggest examining who Eusebius and Epiphanius were even quoting and referring to as evangelist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish–Christian_gospels Then examine who exactly were the Ebionites and the Nazarene's and what did they believe.

Then bare in mind that Josephus was present in ad70 and that Eusebius was born 193 years later which then would amount to him getting all the facts correct if we consider ourselves accurate at reciting history from 1827 or Epiphanius the same who was bon 240 years after ad70. The truth to the matter is that all we have is their opinion because they were not eyewitnesses and so theirs is as ours is.

If we rather choose opinions though we could find writers from within our own forum and say that in "thread blah blah screenname said" and quote it as if it is of authority. Or we could go back through history and quote from the many theological writers as authoritative but then one of us will say one is but the others are not.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
They are NOT in heaven. They are on Mount Zion. You've shown us all that you have zero discerment skills but can't you at least read and comprehend basic English?

“Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

If they were in heaven, they wouldn't need to be sealed or protected, now would they?
Nope
Read it again

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

They are in heaven before the beasts and the throne.
They WERE REDEEMED
Past tense.

BEING THE FIRSTFRUITS UNTO GOD.

Hands down no brainer
They ARE in heaven in rev 14.