Apostasy 101

[Chris1975]

Yep

just like the israelites

THEY WERE NEVER SAVED

osas does not Teach licentious believers will get to heaven or will ever saved.

if you would stop listening to whoever is feeding you lies about us, you would see that.

You were having a massive argument with EH just the other day about this. She hasn't changed her mind. She teaches OSAS. She also teaches that no matter what a believer does henceforth they cannot lose salvation. Because saved is saved.

Is she right or are you right?

 

[Chris1975]

Remember, according to him, God makes mistakes

he gives people who say they have faith the gift of eternal life through Christ, not knowing, their faith is dead. And he will have to take that”eternal” gift back. Embarrassing himself

Israel was called into covenent, entered into covenent, forsook God and broke covenant. They fell and were no longer saved (those who disobeyed). So too with those who break the new covenant. It is in fact a higher standard under the new. Before you had to physically murder. Now you only need to hate. Before you and to physically commit adultery. Now you only need to list.

Because we have the HS in is, we are without excuse, because all the grace to overcome is available to us.

 

[Chris1975]

You still talk to him?

She seeks every opportunity to talk to me. Lol.

 

[mailmandan]

You didn’t answer my question. Were they saved before they shipwrecked their faith?

I've heard arguments for yes and no yet I have no infallible answer of yes or no to your question and regardless, it could be yes, which would still not prove that Paul used “shipwrecked” as a metaphor for losing one’s salvation, which is a big and unfounded assumption. Being shipwrecked does not automatically kill people. It isolates them in an unfortunate situation, but they can be rescued from it. The apostle Paul himself was shipwrecked multiple times (2 Corinthians 11:25) and he was rescued each time. So what was their ultimate outcome? Do you claim to infallibly know?

If they truly were saved in the first place, God works with them by chastening them as a loving Father in order to bring them back to their senses, to teach them “not to blaspheme.” Paul says that he had delivered Hymenaeus and Alexander “to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme” (1 Timothy 1:19). There is one other time when Paul had delivered a man “over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.” If Hymenaeus and Alexander were truly saved, then how do we know the outcome was not the same for them as it was the adulterer in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 who later repented in 2 Corinthians chapter 2? Nothing is mentioned about him "losing his salvation" either. So once again, your argument about losing salvation is INCONCLUSIVE.

 

[mailmandan]

I did say dead faith is also mentioned in the Bible and James made it clear the faith of demons is dead faith.

So you admit that NOT ALL faith is the same?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I've heard arguments for yes and no yet I have no infallible answer of yes or no to your question and regardless, it could be yes, which would still not prove that Paul used “shipwrecked” as a metaphor for losing one’s salvation, which is a big and unfounded assumption. Being shipwrecked does not automatically kill people. It isolates them in an unfortunate situation, but they can be rescued from it. The apostle Paul himself was shipwrecked multiple times (2 Corinthians 11:25) and he was rescued each time. So what was their ultimate outcome? Do you claim to infallibly know?

If they truly were saved in the first place, God works with them by chastening them as a loving Father in order to bring them back to their senses, to teach them “not to blaspheme.” Paul says that he had delivered Hymenaeus and Alexander “to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme” (1 Timothy 1:19). There is one other time when Paul had delivered a man “over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.” If Hymenaeus and Alexander were truly saved, then how do we know the outcome was not the same for them as it was the adulterer in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 who later repented in 2 Corinthians chapter 2? Nothing is mentioned about him "losing his salvation" either. So once again, your argument about losing salvation is INCONCLUSIVE.

Paul was shipwrecked

he lived.

 

[mailmandan]

I do get what you mean and I’m saying it’s extra-Scriptural. Your interpretations change the meaning of the verse 31 in Exodus 14 altogether. Besides, James made it clear that faith of demons or any kind of faith that is false will never bring salvation, yet Israel was saved after their act of faith in Exodus 14. It is you who don’t get the contradiction of your beliefs.

I've been using scripture to back up my arguments. I did not change the meaning in Exodus 31:14. I simply pointed out to you that not everyone who is said to "believe" truly believes unto salvation. Exodus 31:14 - When Israel saw the great power which the Lord had used against the Egyptians, the people feared the Lord, and they believed in the Lord and in His servant Moses. Oh sure, these faltering Hebrews who are later destroyed because they did not believe (Jude 1:5) begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? It's easy for people to have a certain level of progress in belief when things are going well, yet ultimately, perseverance confirms consummated belief that resulted in salvation. (Hebrews 3:14)

There is a stage in the progress of believing which "falls short of consummated belief resulting in salvation." If you read in John 8:31-59, you will see that the Jews who were said to have "believed in Him" turned out to be: slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. *So we can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus up to that point, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe in His name/believe in Him" and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18).

 

[Noose]

If they truly were saved in the first place, God works with them by chastening them as a loving Father in order to bring them back to their senses, to teach them “not to blaspheme.” Paul says that he had delivered Hymenaeus and Alexander “to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme” (1 Timothy 1:19). There is one other time when Paul had delivered a man “over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.” If Hymenaeus and Alexander were truly saved, then how do we know the outcome was not the same for them as it was the adulterer in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 who later repented in 2 Corinthians chapter 2? Nothing is mentioned about him "losing his salvation" either. So once again, your argument about losing salvation is INCONCLUSIVE.

Why is the adulterer being saved twice? If his flesh is destroyed so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord, does it mean he is saved twice? once before he departed from his faith and before destruction of his flesh and a second time on the day of the Lord.

Kindly explain.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

You were having a massive argument with EH just the other day about this. She hasn't changed her mind. She teaches OSAS. She also teaches that no matter what a believer does henceforth they cannot lose salvation. Because saved is saved.

Is she right?

A person that Really got saved WILL seek to purify themselves even as they are pure.So they would not do whatever they wanted.

To GOD you can't lose your salvation because of sin because that person was changed,GODs workmanship created IN CHRIST unto good works.

Of course as men In the flesh we know we can't do whatever we want to and expect others to believe our faith Is true but from GODs view the answer would be No,sin does not cause a person that has been made perfect by GOD to lose their salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

As I before said, The Gospel isnt a to-do list, its a message of the reconciliation of God with man..

Amen! The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

Why is the adulterer being saved twice? If his flesh is destroyed so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord, does it mean he is saved twice? once before he departed from his faith and before destruction of his flesh and a second time on the day of the Lord.

Kindly explain.

Who said he was saved twice or permanently departed from his faith? Just because you stumble as a Christian does not mean you no longer have faith. Also, saved has a past, present and future tense. Justification, Sanctification, Glorification.

 

[Noose]

A person that Really got saved WILL seek to purify themselves even as they are pure.So they would not do whatever they wanted.

To GOD you can't lose your salvation because of sin because that person was changed,GODs workmanship created IN CHRIST unto good works.

Of course as men In the flesh we know we can't do whatever we want to and expect others to believe our faith Is true but from GODs view the answer would be No,sin does not cause a person that has been made perfect by GOD to lose their salvation.

What about this:

2 Pet 2:20If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,f only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”g and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”

 

[Chris1975]

A person that Really got saved WILL seek to purify themselves even as they are pure.So they would not do whatever they wanted.

To GOD you can't lose your salvation because of sin because that person was changed,GODs workmanship created IN CHRIST unto good works.

Of course as men In the flesh we know we can't do whatever we want to and expect others to believe our faith Is true but from GODs view the answer would be No,sin does not cause a person that has been made perfect by GOD to lose their salvation.

STH, then what are your views on the sanctified believers who wilfully and continually live in sin in Hebrews 10v26? How does that reconcile to your above assertions?

 

[Noose]

Who said he was saved twice or permanently departed from his faith? Just because you stumble as a Christian does not mean you no longer have faith. Also, saved has a past, present and future tense. Justification, Sanctification, Glorification.

So what exactly does "..his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord" mean.

Can it mean his salvation may be maintained until the day of the Lord?

 

[Chris1975]

So what exactly does "..his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord" mean.

Can it mean his salvation may be maintained until the day of the Lord?

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/1-corinth-5-brother-lets-get-into-it.153638/

 

[mailmandan]

Yes

2 Pet 2:20If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,f only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”g and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”

See post #458. - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/apostasy-101.189485/page-23#post-4135400

 

[mailmandan]

So what exactly does "..his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord" mean.

Can it mean his salvation may be maintained until the day of the Lord?

Salvation maintained, as in type 2 works salvation? NO.

 

[Chris1975]

What about this:

2 Pet 2:20If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,f only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”g and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”

The scripture here is clear - they ESCAPED the corruption of the world. They came to faith (and forgiveness by the Lord). They were Christians in every sense of the word.

Then the enemy overcame them because they were led astray by temptation which leads to death (James 1). They did not crucify the flesh, deny themselves and pick up their cross. They did not live by the Spirit, but instead according to the flesh.

The scriptures are in perfect harmony.

 

[gb9]

STH, then what are your views on the sanctified believers who wilfully and continually live in sin in Hebrews 10v26? How does that reconcile to your above assertions?

is Hebrews 10 46 the king of the Bible? is ist?

this is why your theology is pure junk. you just pluck out individual verses and throw them out there and them want others to " refute" them.

you are doing what so many other work salvationists do- try to pit Scripture against Scripture. shameful.

 

[Noose]

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/1-corinth-5-brother-lets-get-into-it.153638/

I'll go through the details further to understand.