Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[JohnR7]

Old Testament moral law's are Still in effect today, and are to be obeyed!

There is actually a lot riding on this: "So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:19) There is a more to the law then just the commandments. I am not even sure what the commandments are other then to Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself. Even Jesus said all of he law is to love God and our neighbor as ourself.

If we want to be "great" then we are to "practice and teach this". If we want to be "Least" then break one of the least of the commandments and teach others to do the same. I do not know what it means to teach. But with so much riding on this we should put some effort into trying to figure out what Jesus is teaching us here.

If people say we do not have to follow the law, then they are saying we do not have to love God and we do not have to love our neighbor as ourself. Sometimes I wonder between God, our neighbor and our-self. The most difficult maybe to love our-self.

 

[Marcelo]

The difference in the covenant is that GOD wrote the old covenant on stone witch was the commandments that HE wrote with HIS finger .
And the new covenant HE write the Ten commandments on our HEARTS .
REVELATION tells us that they have the faith of JESUS & they keep the COMMANDMENTS of GOD .GOD BLESS as HE sees FIT for you .

OK, but Jesus, in the Gospels, taught obedience to the law of Moses while Paul said we are not under the Law. Who do you follow? Jesus or Paul?

 

[JohnR7]

Paul said we are not under the Law

"His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." (2Peter3:15)

 

[Marcelo]

"His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." (2Peter3:15)

You mean Paul didn't actually say we are not under the Law?

 

[JohnR7]

You mean Paul didn't actually say we are not under the Law?

What scripture are you wanting to talk about? The word of God and the law of God are the exact same thing. Jesus said we are to love God and love our neighbor as our self. What part of that do you suggest we do not have to do? "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:40)

 

[Marcelo]

What scripture are you wanting to talk about? The word of God and the law of God are the exact same thing. Jesus said we are to love God and love our neighbor as our self. What part of that do you suggest we do not have to do? "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:40)

I suggest we don't have to obey some of the teachings of Jesus as, for example; to obey the scribes and the Pharisees; to offer sacrifices; to sell all we have and give alms; etc.

 

[JohnR7]

to sell all we have and give alms; etc.

I use to wonder about this. What does this mean to sell all we have and give to the poor? I did not understand until I went to a third world nation. Then I realized this is a question of who needs it more. Why should I over indulge if there is someone that needs something more then I do. We have to have some degree of empathy, some degree of compassion to want to help others with their needs in life. If there is something we can do to help others then an expression of our love for them is to do all we can do to help them. In real life we can not out give God. The more we give the more He gives back to us. In American it is very difficult to find people that have needs that we are able to do something to help. Sin has no limit. We can find alcoholics that need alcohol. Drug addicts that need drugs. But I am talking about children that are hungry and need food. Things like that. If it is within our means to do something to help others, then an expression of our love for them is to do all we can to help them. Why would we withhold what we have if they need it more then we do? Americans are very generous people. There are lots of people in American that would be glad to give all they have if there were something they could do to help others. Because of our love, empathy and compassion for others. My closets are full of stuff. My garage is full, my shed is full. I wish I could find someone to give some of this stuff to. There is a hardware store here that will take in used stuff like a thrift store. There is habitat for humanity that will take building materials. But it is work to go though and clean it out to give it all away. Maybe I am lazy and if I could see the need I would be more motivated.

 

[Marcelo]

I use to wonder about this. What does this mean to sell all we have and give to the poor? I did not understand until I went to a third world nation. Then I realized this is a question of who needs it more. Why should I over indulge if there is someone that needs something more then I do. We have to have some degree of empathy, some degree of compassion to want to help others with their needs in life. If there is something we can do to help others then an expression of our love for them is to do all we can do to help them. In real life we can not out give God. The more we give the more He gives back to us. In American it is very difficult to find people that have needs that we are able to do something to help. Sin has no limit. We can find alcoholics that need alcohol. Drug addicts that need drugs. But I am talking about children that are hungry and need food. Things like that. If it is within our means to do something to help others, then an expression of our love for them is to do all we can to help them. Why would we withhold what we have if they need it more then we do? Americans are very generous people. There are lots of people in American that would be glad to give all they have if there were something they could do to help others. Because of our love, empathy and compassion for others. My closets are full of stuff. My garage is full, my shed is full. I wish I could find someone to give some of this stuff to. There is a hardware store here that will take in used stuff like a thrift store. There is habitat for humanity that will take building materials. But it is work to go though and clean it out to give it all away. Maybe I am lazy and if I could see the need I would be more motivated.

I'm sure God appreciates your willingness to give away your possessions. Jesus really told the Jews to sell their properties and give alms, and in Acts we see the disciples obeying that commandment. But Paul's teachings are different from Jesus'.

Some 30 years ago I had a co-worker who claimed that Christians should obey the commandment Jesus gave to the young rich ruler. He gave away almost everything he had, but a year or so later he realized it would be impossible to serve God that way. He then started living off his friends and ate a huge humble pie.

My co-worker's attitude caused a lot of discussion about the differences between Jesus and Paul and one of our pastors expressed the following opinion: "Jesus preached to the Jews and Paul preached to the Gentiles. In case of conflict we must follow Paul, not Jesus".

I accepted the pastor's opinion, but didn't assimilate it -- I continued thinking Jesus' words should take precedence over Paul's.

Some five years ago I heard detailed teachings about the subject and realized that Jesus basically preached the law of Moses and this is the reason why some of His teachings differ from those of Paul.

God will be pleased if you (moved by genuine love) give away all your possessions, but you don't have to do that to be saved. The scriptural basis for this is found in the letters of Paul (Paul's letters take precedent because they express the teachings of the risen Christ).

 

[JohnR7]

He gave away almost everything he had, but a year or so later he realized it would be impossible to serve God that way. He then started living off his friends

If the idea is to have something to help others then why was he not working? There were plenty of times in my life I had very little. In the army all we have is what we can fit in a duffel bag or foot locker. Which is inspected to make sure we do not have any thing banned in there. I lived out of a back pack once for three months and I attended a boarding school for a few years where were have very little other then our clothing. Not to have to carry a lot of stuff is sort of liberating. When we go on vacation we usually take very little with us. My wife was working in Hong Kong before we got married. When she came to America she brought very little with her. She thought she was going to get everything new in America. although we got a lot of our stuff at thrift stores and garage sales.

One note. When you carry everything you own on your back people are VERY generous to want to feed you and give you a place to sleep for the night. It is rather surprising how good people are. For me I was young and it was just an adventure. Jesus and His disciples lived that way because they traveled lot.

 

[Marcelo]

If the idea is to have something to help others then why was he not working? There were plenty of times in my life I had very little. In the army all we have is what we can fit in a duffel bag or foot locker. Which is inspected to make sure we do not have any thing banned in there. I lived out of a back pack once for three months and I attended a boarding school for a few years where were have very little other then our clothing. Not to have to carry a lot of stuff is sort of liberating. When we go on vacation we usually take very little with us. My wife was working in Hong Kong before we got married. When she came to America she brought very little with her. She thought she was going to get everything new in America. although we got a lot of our stuff at thrift stores and garage sales.

One note. When you carry everything you own on your back people are VERY generous to want to feed you and give you a place to sleep for the night. It is rather surprising how good people are. For me I was young and it was just an adventure. Jesus and His disciples lived that way because they traveled lot.

He quit his job because it was too "worldly" (not compatible with Christian life). Too bad he didn't give ears to Paul, because the apostle says it is important to have means to help the poor. He instead attempted to follow the teachings of Jesus (which were for the Jews, not for us) and gave away almost everything. He quit his job because he thought it was too worldly, but ended up being employed by South America's greatest false prophet, Edir Macedo.

In our churches we almost never have problems with the differences between Jesus and Paul because people just claim we must follow Jesus (not Paul) but they don't really mean it, they actually cling to Paul's words.

I know what you mean about military life -- I served the armed forces for six and a half years.

 

[JohnR7]

He quit his job because it was too "worldly" (not compatible with Christian life).

Oh I agree with that. There was a book in the 80's called: "In His Steps" that asks what would Jesus do. I always tried to work a job that did not do harm to others. This is a challenge to honor God in the work we do.

 

[cv5]

There are a few things to consider here;

1)God is a non-changing God so He would never change His word.

2)The Bible teaches us that everything is about Jesus. So if He tells us not to follow Torah, He basically tells us not to follow Him anymore.

3)After His crucifixion, Jesus appeared to the two men and taught them from the Old Testament about himself.

4)Jesus said that the Pharisees sit in the seat of Moses (that is to keep the Torah) so do what they tell you to do (keep Torah) but don’t do what they do (keep Talmud). The Talmud is basically man’s opinion and will lead to destruction.

Okay Gandalf now we can see what where the problem lies. Maybe you are following and attending one of the British Israelism churches? If you are get out and get out now!
The Old Covenant has been replaced by the New Covenant and we are no longer under the Law of Moses, but under the Law of Christ.

 

[Ahwatukee]

There are a few things to consider here;

1)God is a non-changing God so He would never change His word.

2)The Bible teaches us that everything is about Jesus. So if He tells us not to follow Torah, He basically tells us not to follow Him anymore.

3)After His crucifixion, Jesus appeared to the two men and taught them from the Old Testament about himself.

4)Jesus said that the Pharisees sit in the seat of Moses (that is to keep the Torah) so do what they tell you to do (keep Torah) but don’t do what they do (keep Talmud). The Talmud is basically man’s opinion and will lead to destruction.

==================================================

Good day, Gandalf! Just some scriptures to consider regarding salvation by grace through faith vs. the law

Instead, those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5Therefore, when Christ came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,

but a body You prepared for Me.

6In burnt offerings and sin offerings

You took no delight.

7Then I said, ‘Here I am, it is written about Me in the scroll:

I have come to do Your will, O God.’”

8In the passage above He says, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings You did not desire, nor did You delight in them” (although they are offered according to the law). 9Then He adds, “Here I am, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been sanctified through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11Day after day every priest stands to minister and to offer again and again the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time, He waits for His enemies to be made a footstool for His feet, 14because by a single offering He has made perfect for all time those who are being sanctified.
===========================================================

Acts 13:38-39
Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the Law of Moses.

Romans 4:4-5
Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness

Romans 4:13-15
It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. (The best way to not break the law is to have no law to break.)

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Romans 10:4
Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 2:19-21
For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing.

Galatians 3:10
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written” “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”

=======================================================================

I have many more, but I think that you get the picture

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Okay Gandalf now we can see what where the problem lies. Maybe you are following and attending one of the British Israelism churches? If you are get out and get out now!
The Old Covenant has been replaced by the New Covenant and we are no longer under the Law of Moses, but under the Law of Christ.

Thank you cv5 but I am not from the UK so I actually couldn’t care less. I know there are Israel vision churches and that is not my belief. Relax be grateful and be blessed

I want to share something with everybody; one thing I always struggled with is why we would say the Law of Moses while it is clear there have always been a Law/Torah. I recently watched a sermon on YouTube about a Chinses preacher from Hong Kong and my mind was blown. Basically what it boiled down to is that the Chinese culture is documented just as far back as the Hebrew culture and the first years are basically a parallel up to the tower of Babel when God moved the nations away from each other.

After that the Chinses worshipped this one God (Shangdi) for thousands of years until they founded Buddhism etc from about 5BC.

What really caught my attention was the fact that the Chinese people made the same sacrifices as the Hebrew people but clearly they didn’t live together for a very long time. They also had the laver where they had to clean themselves etc. When we look at it, it is clear to see that God just reiterated to Moses what was already in place for a long time.

 

[Dave-L]

I'm not a law-keeper, but I still haven't found a single piece of evidence -- in the Gospels -- that Jesus ever told us to stop keeping the Law. Should we rely solely on what Paul said?

Jesus taught the Law and came to fulfill it. But the New Covenant replaced all of the Law after he fulfilled it. We use it only as a commentary as it has given way to the Two Great Commandments of love for God and People.

 

[Beckworth]

Jesus taught the Law and came to fulfill it. But the New Covenant replaced all of the Law after he fulfilled it. We use it only as a commentary as it has given way to the Two Great Commandments of love for God and People.

2 Timothy 3:16 says that ALL scripture is inspired by God.

There are 3 in the godhead: God, the Father; God, the Son; and God, the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is just as much GOD as Jesus.

2 Peter 1:21 days that we got the scriptures by “holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit “ Paul ‘s writings are just as authoritative as Jesus’s words because they did not come from him but from God, the Holy Spirit. The Spirit guided him, telling him what to say.

So, I say, yes to Marcelo. We should rely just as much on Paul’s writings as on Jesus’s words. They both have the same source.

In Matthew 5 Jesus says he fulfilled the law and then he goes about changing it. It’s not enough anymore to just not murder, now under the New Law if Christ, he says we cannot even hate our brother. If we do , we have already committed murder in our heart.

We can no longer just not commit adultery, now under Chrust’s New law we cannot even look at a woman to LUST after her. If we do, we have committed adultery with her in our heart.

We no longer hate our enemies but now we love them, not rendering an “eye for an eye” but turning the other cheek.

There is complete harmony between what Jesus taught and what Paul wrote.

 

[JaumeJ]

The two great laws are within the laws of the Torah. Nothing gave way to them.

Jesus has fulfilled the law for me and all that no longer have that veil of Moses blinding them. I fear most today have no understanding of living under grace and yet obedience to the Eternal Father.

 

[Grandpa]

2 Timothy 3:16 says that ALL scripture is inspired by God.

There are 3 in the godhead: God, the Father; God, the Son; and God, the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is just as much GOD as Jesus.

2 Peter 1:21 days that we got the scriptures by “holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit “ Paul ‘s writings are just as authoritative as Jesus’s words because they did not come from him but from God, the Holy Spirit. The Spirit guided him, telling him what to say.

So, I say, yes to Marcelo. We should rely just as much on Paul’s writings as on Jesus’s words. They both have the same source.

In Matthew 5 Jesus says he fulfilled the law and then he goes about changing it. It’s not enough anymore to just not murder, now under the New Law if Christ, he says we cannot even hate our brother. If we do , we have already committed murder in our heart.

We can no longer just not commit adultery, now under Chrust’s New law we cannot even look at a woman to LUST after her. If we do, we have committed adultery with her in our heart.

We no longer hate our enemies but now we love them, not rendering an “eye for an eye” but turning the other cheek.

There is complete harmony between what Jesus taught and what Paul wrote.

The New Law of Christ is a more difficult 10 commandments?

No. Of course not.

The Lord was showing that the 10 commandments were much harder to keep than what people thought. People thought that if they didn't kill anyone and didn't commit adultery then they were keeping the commandments and deserved to be with God.

The Lord showed that wasn't the case. People would have to be perfectly without sin in order to be with God.



In order to be PERFECTLY sinless you are going to need help, right?

Matthew 11:28-30
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

A more difficult 10 commandments isn't easy or light. But rest from your labour at working at the 10 commandments is easy and light.

Galatians 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


These parts of what the Lord Jesus taught and what Paul taught are in perfect harmony.

But the Lord taught more of the Law that would bring people to Himself.

Paul taught more of what comes after coming to Christ, which is not being under the law anymore.

 

[Dave-L]

2 Timothy 3:16 says that ALL scripture is inspired by God.

There are 3 in the godhead: God, the Father; God, the Son; and God, the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is just as much GOD as Jesus.

2 Peter 1:21 days that we got the scriptures by “holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit “ Paul ‘s writings are just as authoritative as Jesus’s words because they did not come from him but from God, the Holy Spirit. The Spirit guided him, telling him what to say.

So, I say, yes to Marcelo. We should rely just as much on Paul’s writings as on Jesus’s words. They both have the same source.

In Matthew 5 Jesus says he fulfilled the law and then he goes about changing it. It’s not enough anymore to just not murder, now under the New Law if Christ, he says we cannot even hate our brother. If we do , we have already committed murder in our heart.

We can no longer just not commit adultery, now under Chrust’s New law we cannot even look at a woman to LUST after her. If we do, we have committed adultery with her in our heart.

We no longer hate our enemies but now we love them, not rendering an “eye for an eye” but turning the other cheek.

There is complete harmony between what Jesus taught and what Paul wrote.

The New Covenant replaced the Ten Commandments.

 

[Beckworth]

Okay Gandalf now we can see what where the problem lies. Maybe you are following and attending one of the British Israelism churches? If you are get out and get out now!
The Old Covenant has been replaced by the New Covenant and we are no longer under the Law of Moses, but under the Law of Christ.[/QUOTE

To Gandalf theWhite, regarding your comment that God does not change his word, I have to disagree.

Hebrews 7:11-12. The Holy Spirit makes a very interesting argument concerning “priesthood”. We know that under the old law of Moses God specifies that only men from the tribe of Levi could be priests. But in the New Testament Jesus is called our High Priest. Jesus was from the tribe of JUDAH, not the tribe of Levi. So the Spirit says, “ for if the priesthood is changed, there is also of necessity a CHANGE Of the law. Jesus could never be a high priest under the law of Moses. He wasn’t from the tribe of Levi. The only way Jesus could be a priest was if the law was changed. And there is proof from the Holy Spirit that the law has been changed. God does change his word. We are bound by a different law today than what the Jews were under in the Old Testament.

So what purpose does the Old Law serve? 1Corinthians 10:6-11. Says that it serves as an example to us that we should not sin as they sinned. Jesus is portrayed in the Old Testament in prophecy. But God is the main character. We learn about God. How he dealt with the Jews and Gentiles gives us insight into his character, likes, and dislikes. It is a reference book. It is scripture so it is inspired. Jesus taught from it because Jesus lived under it. Jesus’s last will and Testament did not become binding until he died. Just as any other mans will is not binding until his death. This is what Hebrews 8:16-17 says.