Apostasy 101
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Isa 57:
1The righteous perish,
and no one takes it to heart;
the devout are taken away,
and no one understands
that the righteous are taken away
to be spared from evil.
2Those who walk uprightly
enter into peace;
they find rest as they lie in death.
Rev 14:
13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”
"..Come to me and i will give you rest ..."
True, but that rest is after you die as per the scriptures so don't get it twisted.
1The righteous perish,
and no one takes it to heart;
the devout are taken away,
and no one understands
that the righteous are taken away
to be spared from evil.
2Those who walk uprightly
enter into peace;
they find rest as they lie in death.
Rev 14:
13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”
"..Come to me and i will give you rest ..."
True, but that rest is after you die as per the scriptures so don't get it twisted.
Yes, I know. You're doing it again.
Since they did not persevere you instantly reject any suggestion or proof that the person was ever saved to begin with and so you decide that 'sanctified' can only be in reference to unbelievers made clean for contact by believers. Even though the writer himself says that 'sanctified' is the person forever made perfect in Christ (a saved person). And that the writer says 'forever' means that Christ's ministry does not need to be repeated, not that you can't lose it.
Since they did not persevere you instantly reject any suggestion or proof that the person was ever saved to begin with and so you decide that 'sanctified' can only be in reference to unbelievers made clean for contact by believers. Even though the writer himself says that 'sanctified' is the person forever made perfect in Christ (a saved person). And that the writer says 'forever' means that Christ's ministry does not need to be repeated, not that you can't lose it.
Because you say that only 4th type of soil people are saved.
I'm quite confident that you spend most of your time in soil #3. Bet.
Hey, if I'm wrong, good for you. And I mean that.
But my observation of myself and the church in general tells me you're a 3rd type of soil believer most of the time. You're saved, but the pace and demands and challenges of life choke out the qualities of patience, mercy, joy, and calmness to the point that you are pretty much indiscernible from the unbeliever.
The fruit of the Spirit describes character qualities, which don't necessarily have to find expression in a specific active work (i.e. joy). And so according to your interpretation of the Parable of the Sower, unless you are characterized by the fruit of the Spirit in a type 4 soil life of fruitfulness you are not saved. And since you are more likely characterized by a lack of the fruit of the Spirit in a type 3 soil life you are by your own definition not saved. And never have been.
So I'd back up a bit and reconsider your hard line on those you instantly consider not saved and, therefore, have never been saved, in the Parable of the Sower.
I'm quite confident that you spend most of your time in soil #3. Bet.
Hey, if I'm wrong, good for you. And I mean that.
But my observation of myself and the church in general tells me you're a 3rd type of soil believer most of the time. You're saved, but the pace and demands and challenges of life choke out the qualities of patience, mercy, joy, and calmness to the point that you are pretty much indiscernible from the unbeliever.
So it's fruit of the Spirit vs. active works of righteousness, which is not a fruit of the Spirit? Then why are they called works of "righteousness?" (Literally, of works which are done in righteousness).
Then why are they called works of "righteousness?" (Literally, of works which are done in righteousness).
So I'd back up a bit and reconsider your hard line on those you instantly consider not saved and, therefore, have never been saved, in the Parable of the Sower.
Saved but unclean?
You've been made clean in Christ, but your walk is not clean. The bath was a one time happening, and does not need to be repeated. The washing of the feet in your walk of life is a life long repetitious process.
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No, I think you mean people in the works salvation camp teach soils #2 and #3 are not saved. You are making a HUGE mistake when you instantly equate works salvation with believing you can lose your salvation. HUGE!
And, no, I did not say soil #2 is definitely saved. It can represent the person who never believed, or the person who falls away from faith in Christ. They can fall away and never come back. Or the word in them can become more deeply rooted as their heart changes to soil #3 or #4.
And, no, this has nothing to do with personal logic. It has a lot to do with personal observation and experience. In fact, my soil #2 experience was before my salvation before I had the 'Spirit' part of 'water and Spirit'. My wife's soil #2 experience was after she was saved and had received a gift of the Spirit.
And, no, I did not say soil #2 is definitely saved. It can represent the person who never believed, or the person who falls away from faith in Christ. They can fall away and never come back. Or the word in them can become more deeply rooted as their heart changes to soil #3 or #4.
And, no, this has nothing to do with personal logic. It has a lot to do with personal observation and experience. In fact, my soil #2 experience was before my salvation before I had the 'Spirit' part of 'water and Spirit'. My wife's soil #2 experience was after she was saved and had received a gift of the Spirit.
Well, I'm glad you got right to the 4th type of soil when you were saved , but you're dead wrong to project your personal experience onto everyone else and condemn them as not being saved, and never have been saved, because the word of God is not as deeply rooted and flourishing in them as it is in you.
But as I'm suggesting, because fruitfulness is referring to the qualities of the Spirit (peace, joy, patience, etc.) and not necessarily outward works, you probably are not spending as much time as a 4th type of soil believer as you think you are, which according to your biased interpretation of the Parable of the Sower means you are not saved, and never have been. Are you still willing to go there?
, but you're dead wrong to project your personal experience onto everyone else and condemn them as not being saved, and never have been saved, because the word of God is not as deeply rooted and flourishing in them as it is in you.But as I'm suggesting, because fruitfulness is referring to the qualities of the Spirit (peace, joy, patience, etc.) and not necessarily outward works, you probably are not spending as much time as a 4th type of soil believer as you think you are, which according to your biased interpretation of the Parable of the Sower means you are not saved, and never have been. Are you still willing to go there?
I was wondering if you could help me. You are calling certain individuals legalists, and then saying they miss-understand the words believe and obey.
Jesus who we (the elect) love, said our expression in our lives will be to obey His commands.
And His commands are about love, sacrifice and service for others.
Are you criticising people for saying they love, sacrifice and serve others as an expression of their love, as trying to prove the love they do not have by trying to love, sacrifice and serve?
The group you are talking about, could be faking it all, and trying to prove something they are not, or they could be actually testifying to what God has done in their souls, and witnessing to His great work.
If I met Jesus, and decided He must be fake because no one could speak and live like Him, would I know God?
As I do not know anyone here, and only can go by what they share, I try and believe the best about them, on face value.
Am I wrong to do this, or should I take a different approach?
Jesus who we (the elect) love, said our expression in our lives will be to obey His commands.
And His commands are about love, sacrifice and service for others.
Are you criticising people for saying they love, sacrifice and serve others as an expression of their love, as trying to prove the love they do not have by trying to love, sacrifice and serve?
The group you are talking about, could be faking it all, and trying to prove something they are not, or they could be actually testifying to what God has done in their souls, and witnessing to His great work.
If I met Jesus, and decided He must be fake because no one could speak and live like Him, would I know God?
As I do not know anyone here, and only can go by what they share, I try and believe the best about them, on face value.
Am I wrong to do this, or should I take a different approach?
As I already explained numerous times, in context, to "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately, continuous action, a matter of practice. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).
Also, if the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation as you teach, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." So in Hebrews 10:10, we clearly read ..WE have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. In Hebrews 10:14, we read - For by one offering He has perfected for all time THOSE who are sanctified. To go from sanctified back to un-sanctified would be in contradiction here. *NOWHERE in the context does it specifically say the person who "trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant" was "saved" and/or "lost their salvation."
In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses the word 'sanctified' to refer to non-Christians who are "set apart" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" without experiencing salvation as Paul explained.
In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers/nominal Christians, not saved people: But WE are not of those who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.
So after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a professing believer in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but later renounces his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.
It looks someone else from the Hebrews 10v26 thread gets it!
Also, if the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation as you teach, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." So in Hebrews 10:10, we clearly read ..WE have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. In Hebrews 10:14, we read - For by one offering He has perfected for all time THOSE who are sanctified. To go from sanctified back to un-sanctified would be in contradiction here. *NOWHERE in the context does it specifically say the person who "trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant" was "saved" and/or "lost their salvation."
In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses the word 'sanctified' to refer to non-Christians who are "set apart" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" without experiencing salvation as Paul explained.
In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers/nominal Christians, not saved people: But WE are not of those who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.
So after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a professing believer in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but later renounces his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.
It looks someone else from the Hebrews 10v26 thread gets it!
Only the 4th soil produced fruit in various quantities, so I guess fruitless faith represents saving faith anyway? Faith without works is dead only applies in James 2?
You seem to view these various soils as revolving doors for believers. These soils represent our heart, the seed represents the word and the types of soil the word lands in determines the outcome.
So if someone is saved will they produce fruit or not? Does fruitless faith represent saving faith to you? I believe that ALL genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. How much fruit did the #2 and #3 soil produce? I see NONE. Only the 4th soil produced fruit.
So fruitless faith is still saving faith according to you? Would James agree with that? (James 2:14)
You seem to view these various soils as revolving doors for believers. These soils represent our heart, the seed represents the word and the types of soil the word lands in determines the outcome.
So if someone is saved will they produce fruit or not? Does fruitless faith represent saving faith to you? I believe that ALL genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. How much fruit did the #2 and #3 soil produce? I see NONE. Only the 4th soil produced fruit.
So I'd back up a bit and reconsider your hard line on those you instantly consider not saved and, therefore, have never been saved, in the Parable of the Sower.
Generally, people in the works salvation camp (who also teach NOSAS) teach that #2 and #3 soils represent saved individuals who lost their salvation. Equating works salvation with believing you can lose your salvation in most cases (but not all) are tied together. Even people who teach we are saved through faith, not works who subscribe to NOSAS seem to have "type 2 works salvation" continuously knocking at their back door, even if they don't end up answering the door.
You are the first person in the NOSAS camp that I heard say soil #2 can represent a person who never believed. You are full of surprises!
You seem to view these different soils as revolving and evolving experiences.
You are the first person in the NOSAS camp that I heard say soil #2 can represent a person who never believed. You are full of surprises!
You seem to view these different soils as revolving and evolving experiences.
you are wrong. you and chris teach a works based salvation. this " trying to be nice post" does not change that.
and, I do not try and believe the best of others here. I believe, promote , and stand up for truth. that is what I believe in.
the only thing it takes for one to be saved is faith and trust in Christ. every thing else is a separate conversation.
and, I do not try and believe the best of others here. I believe, promote , and stand up for truth. that is what I believe in.
the only thing it takes for one to be saved is faith and trust in Christ. every thing else is a separate conversation.
You have admitted that you need to obey the commandments of Jesus. Here on this thread:
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/apostasy-101.189485/page-18#post-4133159
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/apostasy-101.189485/page-18#post-4133177
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/apostasy-101.189485/page-18#post-4133190
You have become a works salvationist. You have become a Faith + Obedience salvationist. You said we are to believe AND love our neighbour.
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/apostasy-101.189485/page-18#post-4133159
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/apostasy-101.189485/page-18#post-4133177
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/apostasy-101.189485/page-18#post-4133190
You have become a works salvationist. You have become a Faith + Obedience salvationist. You said we are to believe AND love our neighbour.
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yes. but, what happens when I fail to love others as I should?
I ask for forgiveness and move on.
belief saves. loving others is an outflow of that belief.
but, failure to love others does not disqualify one from salvation, as long as one confesses their sin. ( He is faithful and just to forgive our sins)
I ask for forgiveness and move on.
belief saves. loving others is an outflow of that belief.
but, failure to love others does not disqualify one from salvation, as long as one confesses their sin. ( He is faithful and just to forgive our sins)
