What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

[garee]

So you believe that Judas, who repented, and Jesus told him to go do is the only one sentenced to die and not Satan? You don't believe he was possessed? How do you explain these verses?

John 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.

John 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

John 13:28 Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him.

Not sure what you mean by; Jesus told him to go do is the only one sentenced to die and not Satan? Are you saying the sin was attributed to Judas and not Satan?

 

[DeighAnn]

Yes we are signified as watchers like Noah. We walk by faith .

Yes,
Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

 

[DeighAnn]

Not sure what you mean by; Jesus told him to go do is the only one sentenced to die and not Satan? Are you saying the sin was attributed to Judas and not Satan?

No, I am saying that Satan is the son of perdition, not Judas.

 

[garee]

No, I am saying that Satan is the son of perdition, not Judas.

Yes like when the father of lies moved Peter, and Peter blasphemously said ; "Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee". It was a repeat method of operation of the garden, Satan giving his wisdom of the world questions God word as the poison of serpents. The god of this world putting words in the mouth of mankind. Peter was not addressed as the author. He was forgiven of his blasphemy against the Son of man, Jesus when the Son of man was there on earth.

Peter learned to walk by faith, the things of God. . learning it is useless to wrestle against flesh and blood the things of men.

But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Mathew 16: 23

Judas an apostle like, the tribe of Dan were used to signify the "spirit of judgement" it will not be part of the new order.

 

[Jimbone]

easy no problem. temple will be back tomorrow. next problem sir

Well God's temple is gone forever sir, the age of sacrifice is over. Just because men build a temple and say "it's Gods" does not make it so. Problem still VERY MUCH there. Your smug short non-answer was cute, but I'm as serious as I can be. God will not dwell in a temple made with hands again. Do you think men can just build a "Gods temple"? Are you suggesting God is going to reinstitute the sacrificial system and dwell in a man made temple again? I would like to see in Gods word where He says this. Your flippant attitude towards a very serious question makes me wonder if you're even serious about the subject. so still very much "current problem", for your view anyway.

 

[bud62]

The passage you cite is mostly about the resurrection which came after the start of the Jewish War. Notice that the dead (who were in Hades) were raised and are with the Lord prior to any living person. Your entire premise relies on 2 passages from Paul, both of which are poorly written or hard to understand. The dead rise at the sound of the trumpet. The word, "prevent" should be "proceed."

The living will not proceed those being resurrected when it comes to being with the Lord. Those who were still alive at the time of the 66-68 AD resurrection will be caught up to heaven to join those resurrected when they die, not while they are physical living beings.

We have to take this view to harmonize other teachings on the subject, including teachings from Paul and Peter.

2 Cor 5:1-4 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens...For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.

2 Pet 1: 12 For this reason I will not be negligent to remind you always of these things, though you know and are established in the present truth. 13 Yes, I think it is right, as long as I am in this tent, to stir you up by reminding you, 14 knowing that shortly I must put off my tent, just as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. 15 Moreover I will be careful to ensure that you always have a reminder of these things after my decease.

Both of these 2 witnesses describe are flesh bodies as tents implying our body is covering our spiritual body that we have now. Thus when our tent dies, our spiritual body within us is immediately raptured to heaven.

 

[DeighAnn]

Judas an apostle like, the tribe of Dan were used to signify the "spirit of judgement" it will not be part of the new order.

I don't know what you mean, if you could explain. Thank you.

 

[bud62]

This dose away with paul saying that we shall not all sleep . Paul as well as king david is still a sleep until Jesus comes again .

 

[DeighAnn]

Well God's temple is gone forever sir, the age of sacrifice is over. Just because men build a temple and say "it's Gods" does not make it so. Problem still VERY MUCH there. Your smug short non-answer was cute, but I'm as serious as I can be. God will not dwell in a temple made with hands again. Do you think men can just build a "Gods temple"? Are you suggesting God is going to reinstitute the sacrificial system and dwell in a man made temple again? I would like to see in Gods word where He says this. Your flippant attitude towards a very serious question makes me wonder if you're even serious about the subject. so still very much "current problem", for your view anyway.

Are you suggesting that anything is impossible with God? DO we have to KNOW how God will do it? Does it matter that you don't know the How? Does that change any of the Scripture? or are you using the question to promote a belief of yours? It is not a "PROBLEM" for those walking spiritually and who have faith, it is a problem for the flesh, gotta see it or it can't be. Didn't Jesus tell us the temple would be destroyed. Are we also told Satan will stand in the temple proclaiming to be? Just take it on faith.

And if you are promiting a "Jesus already returned" then where is the great valley formed from His feet touching the mount?

 

[bud62]

The one that is alive when JESUS comes back will not sleep they will be changed & go up to meet JESUS in the air .GOD BLESS

 

[Melach]

Well God's temple is gone forever sir, the age of sacrifice is over. Just because men build a temple and say "it's Gods" does not make it so. Problem still VERY MUCH there. Your smug short non-answer was cute, but I'm as serious as I can be. God will not dwell in a temple made with hands again. Do you think men can just build a "Gods temple"? Are you suggesting God is going to reinstitute the sacrificial system and dwell in a man made temple again? I would like to see in Gods word where He says this. Your flippant attitude towards a very serious question makes me wonder if you're even serious about the subject. so still very much "current problem", for your view anyway.

im not really serious because i find preterism to be absolute joke so i find it hard to be serious discussing it. 2 thessalonians 2:3-4 say the man of sin will go to the temple proclaiming he is god and this happens in last times because it says Jesus returns in brightness of coming. its like in matthew 24:15 and onwards. its not difficult at all and there is no problem for my view at all, doesnt matter where you say God dwells or doesnt, scripture will be fulfilled and whether God dwells there or not doesnt matter because its the man of sin who will go in there and proclaim to be god

 

[bud62]

Are you suggesting that anything is impossible with God? DO we have to KNOW how God will do it? Does it matter that you don't know the How? Does that change any of the Scripture? or are you using the question to promote a belief of yours? It is not a "PROBLEM" for those walking spiritually and who have faith, it is a problem for the flesh, gotta see it or it can't be. Didn't Jesus tell us the temple would be destroyed. Are we also told Satan will stand in the temple proclaiming to be? Just take it on faith.

And if you are promiting a "Jesus already returned" then where is the great valley formed from His feet touching the mount?

When the mountains separate will be preparing for the new Jeruslem coming down.

 

[bud62]

Yes we are signified as watchers like Noah. We walk by faith .

I believe this is right , for revelation tells that HE is comming as a thief after the 6 plagues this show us that the church will be here go through the plagues like the Jews did when they came out of Egypt .

 

[garee]

I believe this is right , for revelation tells that HE is comming as a thief after the 6 plagues this show us that the church will be here go through the plagues like the Jews did when they came out of Egypt .

Yes, the plagues will end on the last day when death as to the letter of the law will be cast into the fiery judgement of God. Never to rise and corrupt another creation forevermore.

I would question the idea that the church will not suffer tribulation which increased because of the time or reformation . . beginning the last days. It's not a matter of if a person perishes under the sun but when. I would think the wrath of God revealed from heaven which began in the garden when God corrupted this creation in respect death continues today .It could not get any greater for those who know not Christ's gospel. No living hope without God .

 

[bud62]

im not really serious because i find preterism to be absolute joke so i find it hard to be serious discussing it. 2 thessalonians 2:3-4 say the man of sin will go to the temple proclaiming he is god and this happens in last times because it says Jesus returns in brightness of coming. its like in matthew 24:15 and onwards. its not difficult at all and there is no problem for my view at all, doesnt matter where you say God dwells or doesnt, scripture will be fulfilled and whether God dwells there or not doesnt matter because its the man of sin who will go in there and proclaim to be god

Yes, the plagues will end on the last day when death as to the letter of the law will be cast into the fiery judgement of God. Never to rise and corrupt another creation forevermore.

I would question the idea that the church will not suffer tribulation which increased because of the time or reformation . . beginning the last days. It's not a matter of if a person perishes under the sun but when. I would think the wrath of God revealed from heaven which began in the garden when God corrupted this creation in respect death continues today .It could not get any greater for those who know not Christ's gospel. No living hope without God .

GOD will protect HIS people just like in Egypt . The plagues didn't harm HIS people . or come close .

 

[iamsoandso]

"If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death-whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master-how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, being come, raised them from the dead." The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians Chapter IX.-Let Us Live with Christ.

Did Ignatius, who wrote around 105-115 AD tell the Magnesians that Christ returned and raised the disciples from the dead – as in past tense?

The Devil and Satan,,,does Ignatius speak of the Devil and Satan in past tense or present tense,(In his epistles) and if present tense does that not mean Ignatius believed that he was not yet bound? http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/ http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ignatius.html

 

[PlainWord]

The Devil and Satan,,,does Ignatius speak of the Devil and Satan in past tense or present tense,(In his epistles) and if present tense does that not mean Ignatius believed that he was not yet bound? http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/ http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ignatius.html

Please copy and paste the citation rather than links to all his works. I am not going to re-read all of his works to answer your question about Ignatius' view on the binding of Satan. Frankly I think it is irrelevant to what he said about the resurrection where he clearly referred to it in the past tense.

The resurrection occurred people. The disciples and all our dearly beloved who have passed are not disembodied souls in Hades. They are all in heaven with Father and Son and each other. Some day we will join them without having to "sleep" in Hades. This is a good thing. Heb 9:27 applies to all of us.

 

[PlainWord]

No, I am saying that Satan is the son of perdition, not Judas.

No, Satan is the Father of Perdition. Judas and Titus were his sons, spiritually speaking of course. Your view makes Satan one of the 12 disciples.

 

[PlainWord]

Do you believe Christ rose?
Or
Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Or
Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Or
Luke 20:32 Last of all the woman died also.
Luke 20:33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.
Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Luke 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Because I do.

Do you believe Christ rose?

Of course. Hello. Wouldn't be a Christian if I didn't.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Job says the same thing. Prior to the first century Jewish War and the resurrection of the just this was the case. Ecclesiastes is an OT book, is it not? Thus prior to the resurrection when a saved person died, their body went into the ground and turned to dust and not one molecule of it would ever be resurrected. The spirit returned to God and the soul and spiritual body slept in Hades. Paul teaches in 1 Cor 15 that our earthly bodies are corrupt thus they can have no part of our spiritual body.

The resurrection has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with our flesh body coming back to life. It has everything to do with us being with the Lord upon death. Back then, they had to wait. We don't. As I pointed out from both Peter and Paul, our earth bodies are nothing more than a tent, a temporary cover for our spiritual bodies. Once the tent dies, we step out of that body and immediately go to judgment and heaven.

Peter makes clear in Act 2 that Christ was the only one who died whose body was NOT allowed to face corruption. Christ's resurrection was different than ours. When He died, He went to Hades (as did everyone before Him), but He went there to minister to the dead. Thus everyone who passed before Him heard the message of salvation and had roughly 35-40 years to decide. Christ then rose in 3 days as a spiritual man but He stayed on earth for a short period of time with a body like an angel would have if they were in our physical realm. Christ's wounds were still visible but He had all the power of a spiritual being. When Christ ascended and was taken into Heaven, this is when He was glorified. To us on earth, He would appear as an extremely bright light, as Paul can attest.

When we die, we are immediately resurrected to heaven. We are given a spiritual body of brightness according to our works. Glory is measured in brightness, according to 1 Cor 15. To others in the spiritual realm, our bodies are young, 30 ish, and beautiful without blemish.

Although rare, spiritual beings can come into our physical realm and we can enter their spiritual realm. We have examples of both. We have plenty of instances of angels coming to earth and interacting with humans (Lot, Mary, Abraham, etc). We have Ezekiel, Paul and John who as humans were taken in the spirit. Since they were in the spirit, they were spiritual beings having stepped out of their earthly body for a period of time only to return to their flesh bodies. While in the spiritual realm, they had eyes and ears and could see, hear and remember. A disembodied soul would have none of those capabilities. I truly hope this helps you???

 

[PlainWord]

What does that have to do with Christs return? Because we are told in no uncertain terms that

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Was everyone which was alive and remained CHANGED INTO THEIR SPIRITUAL BODIES AND DID THE LORDS DAY BEGIN? IF not then He has not retur

ned no matter what ANY MAN WROTE at any time.

There you go again. Did Paul write anything of meaning to the Thessalonians or was he writing to you? Do you think Paul had any idea you would be born 2,000 years later and live half way across the globe? Let's review the whole letter and not just those same 4-5 verses in Chapter 4.

1 Thes 1:

6 And you became followers of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit, 7 so that you became examples to all in Macedonia and Achaia who believe...and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

The Thessalonian persecution is in focus, not anything today's Christian might be experiencing. "The wrath to come" was against the unbelieving Jews who Jesus called "wicked and perverse generation." The Thessalonians were to wait for the Son from Heaven to deliver them from the wrath to come. This has NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR FUTURE!!!

1 Thes 3:

12 And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you, 13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

Their hearts were to be established blames in holiness before God and Jesus when Christ's presence returned with all the saints who were resurrected. There is no other way to interpret this. They were to witness the return event. Now let's turn to Chapter 5:

3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.

They were to watch and wait so that day would not overtake them. If they were dead 2,000 years there would be no need to watch and wait because that day could not overtake them. Paul clearly is telling them all of this would happen in their lifetimes!! Sudden destruction came to the wicked of their day in the siege of Jerusalem. Paul reinforces this in his second letter.

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God...

Here again, the Thessalonians were being persecuted by the Jews of their day as told in more detail in Acts 17. They were to get rest, not us!! Otherwise, why did Paul write to them at all since he had nothing encouraging to say?? The "flaming fire vengeance" was Jerusalem and its temple being totally burned to the ground.

Writing appox 40 years after the Jewish War, Ignatius makes clear that Christ returned and raised up His saints. You are simply misunderstanding Paul's letter to the Thessalonians. They would be raised first. Those living when this happened would then after be raptured to heaven when they died, as a continuous event, not a singular event. Take this matter to the Lord in earnest prayer and ask that your eyes be open to these truths. This is what I did years ago.