John MacArthur claims "no allegories in Scripture" - dispensationalist delusions

[UnitedWithChrist]

In Acts 17:31,1 Corinthians 15:52,1 Thess.4:16, Acts 24:15 why do the Apostles use the future tense speech of the resurrection?

Because it's a future event. I don't deny that. It will happen when Jesus returns.

I'm not sure why you're asking me that. I believe that the saints in heaven are "ruling", in a sense, now, because they are sharing Jesus' throne. That doesn't mean I think the resurrection has occurred.

The kingdom has been inaugurated, but not fully consummated. Believers in heaven are reigning with Christ on his throne. In fact, even living believers are sharing his throne.

When the resurrection occurs, though, the New Heavens and New Earth begin. I do not believe in an intermediate Millennial rule of Jesus Christ. I believe that he reigns now, and as soon as he comes back, all his enemies will be defeated, the resurrection will occur, and the New Heavens and New Earth will begin. I don't believe in an intervening Millennium, as I believe Jesus is reigning from heaven now. Satan is bound in the sense that he cannot deceive mankind universally, but he is not bound in the sense of being unable to affect specific individuals or large groups of people. Specifically, I believe the phrase "the nations" relates to the Gentiles, and he is no longer able to deceive them with universal idolatry as he did before. However, he will be loosed prior to Jesus' return and allowed to do this again for a short period of time before Christ returns and vanquishes him.

Premillennialists believe two descriptions of the same battle are in fact separate incidences. I do not agree. I think their view is wrong because they read Revelation as a sequence of events from Rev 5 forward. I do not read Revelation like this, but I read it as four or more visions that have overlapping content.

Perhaps I don't understand your question though.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

The Amillennial position is totally bogus, since what we see all around us (and in the daily news) is that Satan is presently deceiving and influencing the nations. As to the rest of your post, it is immaterial since this core truth is being denied.

Furthermore God will give Satan and the Antichrist 3 1/2 years TO TAKE TOTAL CONTROL OF THIS EARTH AND ITS INHABITANTS (Rev 13). So either Satan is LITERALLY bound or he is not. And at present he is definitely not bound.

Believers are positionally with Christ in Heaven, but definitely not reigning on earth. Christians are been persecuted and killed daily instead.

Yes, believers are persecuted and killed daily, and they go to heaven in a disembodied state and reign with Jesus. Then, they return with him and are given their resurrection bodies. Their tormenters will be defeated by Jesus at his return.

Simple, and clear..doesn't require a billion charts and stringing together a bunch of verses to prove it. It also doesn't require John Darby to come along and inform the rest of Christianity about it 1800 years after the fact. Revelation also meant something to those people suffering at that time, and wasn't addressed originally to prophecy nuts in the 21st century who see Blackhawk helicopters in the verses.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

By the way, just to console you guys who are still struggling, I used to read my Bible with the newspaper in my hand, listening to some guy claiming he knew what was up in Revelation. Waste of time. I don't play pin the tail on the antiChrist anymore.

 

[azamzimtoti]

Amillennials teach that believers, especially those who have died in the past, are ruling with Jesus now, sharing his authority as he rules over the nations. You can find numerous Scriptures that support this concept that believers are reigning with Christ now. Rev. 20 would be one place to start.

This is true to some extent, the amills and most futurists are wrong in understanding the nature of the resurrections.

The 1st resurrection of John's revelation is about being made alive in Christ (the new birth), therefore it is a spiritual resurrection and while John specifically writes about the 1st resurrection relating to the 1st century believers because he is dealing with the context of of that time i.e. the judgement of apostate Israel aka "Bablyon" for killing the prophets all Christians partake in a 1st "resurrection" upon being born from above, this is the "quickening" as the KJV translates it.

This zoopoieo (quickening) is precisely the Greek word used by Paul in 1 Cor 15:22 and in Ephesians 2.

The general resurrection that both the old testament and Jesus spoke of in John's gospel "(John 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.) " is the one and the same that John in the revelation states occurs after the "thousand" years which ended in the 1st century.

(Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.)

The above is the resurrection that Paul said was about to be when the Greek is literally rendered:

(Acts 24:15 Young's Literal) having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous ).

 

[iamsoandso]

I'm not sure what you are saying but my position is that the kingdom of God has already been inaugurated, the new creation was begun with the resurrection of Jesus' physical body, and creation awaits final consummation (New Heavens/New Earth) at the return of Jesus. Jesus now rules from heaven. Believers are already participating in the New Creation in an incomplete sense, and will experience the fullness at the resurrection, when death is totally defeated. That is why it is absurd, in my not-so-humble opinion, to have a Millennium with physical people still experiencing death and corruption after Jesus returns. Death is totally defeated at his coming.

Additionally, those who are joined with Christ will experience his resurrection at his return. They are joined to their Lord so defeat of Satan and evil is inevitable. Again, my eschatology is tied to my soteriology.

"about to be",,, he doesn't agree with you on...

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Okay, how 'bout this... do YOU equate (at least in some measure):

--the Rev19:15b wording regarding Jesus (at that point in the chronology) and it saying "HE SHALL [future] shepherd them [the nations] with a rod [/sceptre] of iron [righteousness and strength, like in Heb1:8]"?

[with]

--the Lk19:12,15,17,19 passage [re: His "RETURN"]? and what that passage ALSO shows to involve? ["have thou authority over 10 cities"... "likewise be thou over 5 [cities]"... and that "cities" are located on the earth]




OR, do you NOT see Rev19:15b as referring to that which follows His "RETURN"?

With regards to Rev 19:15, it seems to be a reference to God's wrath. Compare to Rev 2:9.

By the way, I don't deny that there will be different levels of authority in the eternal state, related to one's rewards, and that those who inhabit it will exercise authority over others.

But, here, it seems to be a description of an expression of God's wrath towards those in rebellion against him.

There is no mention of shepherding, though, the word is "rule". And if it is a reference to Rev 2:9, this is more clear.

Notes on Ps 2:9 in the ESV:

Psalms 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.”
(ESV Strong's)

The word "break" here could be "rule". The words are very close in the Hebrew, and this is the way the Septuagint words it.

Psalms 2:9 You shall shepherd them with an iron rod,
and like a potter's vessel you will shatter them.' " (NETS)

To shatter a potter's vessel had some interesting cultural significance amongst the neighboring nations:

Psalms 2:9 Egyptian kings attempted to extend control over foreign kings beyond their normal sphere of military control by inscribing their names with curses on pottery jars and then smashing the jars as an invocation of curse. This exact ritual is unknown in Israel, but the breaking of earthen pottery as a symbol of destroying enemies was understood across the ancient Near East. That said, the metaphor is sufficiently facile and transparent.
(NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible)

So, while you may view that set of Scriptures as a distribution of power over nations, my position would be that it describes utter defeat of God's enemies. The context indicates that this is appropriate.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Revelation also meant something to those people suffering at that time, and wasn't addressed originally to prophecy nuts in the 21st century who see Blackhawk helicopters in the verses.

Let me just say (re: the bold ^ ) that not all dispensationalists interpret in such a way (but by means of comparing scripture with scripture, etc). I am one who does not see "Blackhawk helicopters" in the verses.

So, perhaps it might be more profitable for you, if you didn't automatically think this of all dispensationalists.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

The Amillennial position is totally bogus, since what we see all around us (and in the daily news) is that Satan is presently deceiving and influencing the nations. As to the rest of your post, it is immaterial since this core truth is being denied.

Furthermore God will give Satan and the Antichrist 3 1/2 years TO TAKE TOTAL CONTROL OF THIS EARTH AND ITS INHABITANTS (Rev 13). So either Satan is LITERALLY bound or he is not. And at present he is definitely not bound.

Believers are positionally with Christ in Heaven, but definitely not reigning on earth. Christians are been persecuted and killed daily instead.

Prove the statement tha

Let me just say (re: the bold ^ ) that not all dispensationalists interpret in such a way (but by means of comparing scripture with scripture, etc). I am one who does not see "Blackhawk helicopters" in the verses.

So, perhaps it might be more profitable for you, if you didn't automatically think this of all dispensationalists.

When I first became a believer, those were my influences...additionally, when I visited a Calvary Chapel recently, the speaker announced that the service would be followed by an evening "Prophecy update".

However, I believe the EFree church I'm attending is dispensational, and they have rarely discussed anything I can identify with dispensationalism. So, I acknowledge your point.

I am guessing it wouldn't take me much effort to find tons of threads on this forum from similar prophecy nuts, though

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

With regards to Rev 19:15, it seems to be a reference to God's wrath. Compare to Rev 2:9.
By the way, I don't deny that there will be different levels of authority in the eternal state, related to one's rewards, and that those who inhabit it will exercise authority over others.
But, here, it seems to be a description of an expression of God's wrath towards those in rebellion against him.
There is no mention of shepherding, though, the word is "rule". And if it is a reference to Rev 2:9, this is more clear.

Notes on Ps 2:9 in the ESV:
Psalms 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.”
(ESV Strong's)
The word "break" here could be "rule". The words are very close in the Hebrew, and this is the way the Septuagint words it.
Psalms 2:9 You shall shepherd them with an iron rod,
and like a potter's vessel you will shatter them.' " (NETS)

To shatter a potter's vessel had some interesting cultural significance amongst the neighboring nations:
Psalms 2:9 Egyptian kings attempted to extend control over foreign kings beyond their normal sphere of military control by inscribing their names with curses on pottery jars and then smashing the jars as an invocation of curse. This exact ritual is unknown in Israel, but the breaking of earthen pottery as a symbol of destroying enemies was understood across the ancient Near East. That said, the metaphor is sufficiently facile and transparent. (NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible)

So, while you may view that set of Scriptures as a distribution of power over nations, my position would be that it describes utter defeat of God's enemies. The context indicates that this is appropriate.

I don't deny that that (bold) is involved, but I do note that Psalm 2 is speaking of both those who are His enemies, and also of those who are not (I think v.9 is speaking separately of each of these, just like in Rev19:15a and 15b ).

I see Rev19:15b's "rule/shepherd [G4165 - poimanei/poimaino - feed / shepherd / rule]" is used also in Revelation 7:14-17, esp v.17 "[He] shall FEED [G4165] them..." (correlating with Isaiah 49:10, a millennial kingdom passage)… so "rule/feed/shepherd" is not ALL negative.







[NOTE: my comp was disrupted while attempting to post this... no worries, my comp-tech guy is trackin it! ... but this post was supposed to be more detailed with better explanations... short and sweet will have to do! lol]

 

[iamsoandso]

I don't deny that that (bold) is involved, but I do note that Psalm 2 is speaking of both those who are His enemies, and also of those who are not (I think v.9 is speaking separately of each of these, just like in Rev19:15a and 15b ).

I see Rev19:15b's "rule/shepherd [G4165 - poimanei/poimaino - feed / shepherd / rule]" is used also in Revelation 7:14-17, esp v.17 "[He] shall FEED [G4165] them..." (correlating with Isaiah 49:10, a millennial kingdom passage)… so "rule/feed/shepherd" is not ALL negative.







[NOTE: my comp was disrupted while attempting to post this... no worries, my comp-tech guy is trackin it! ... but this post was supposed to be more detailed with better explanations... short and sweet will have to do! lol]

Yep something closed out my pages and cleared my history about 10 minutes ago also(I'm logging out,lol) maybe the admin/mods can track it...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Oh, and one more thing... my study / posts touch on the "chronology" issues as much as the other aspects of the subject, and it is just at this point that "Amill-teachings" completely miss the mark (totally disregarding a great many passages, in that regard [as though "fluff" and "unimportant"], in order to come up with their viewpoint). Just sayin'



EDIT to add: just now seeing "iamsoandso's" quoting of my post (above this one)... is there something you are wanting to address, or say, iamsoandso?? (perhaps, hinting for me to be even "shorter" and "sweeter"?? lol)


Okay, I see your comment now. Thx!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

This is true to some extent, the amills and most futurists are wrong in understanding the nature of the resurrections.
The 1st resurrection of John's revelation is about being made alive in Christ (the new birth), therefore it is a spiritual resurrection and while John specifically writes about the 1st resurrection relating to the 1st century believers because he is dealing with the context of of that time i.e. the judgement of apostate Israel aka "Bablyon" for killing the prophets all Christians partake in a 1st "resurrection" upon being born from above, this is the "quickening" as the KJV translates it.

This zoopoieo (quickening) is precisely the Greek word used by Paul in 1 Cor 15:22 and in Ephesians 2.

If (and I don't know that you are equating them), IF you are saying that this word (in the italics) is the same idea as to that which you referred in the previous section (where I bolded and underlined, above), how are you saying that "quickened" applied to Jesus... by that, I mean, how are you defining it and what was its result/outcome (with regard to Jesus... since it says in Eph2 we were "quickened-together-WITH-Him"... do you mean "a spiritual resurrection" for Him?)

The general resurrection that both the old testament and Jesus spoke of in John's gospel "(John 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.) " is the one and the same that John in the revelation states occurs after the "thousand" years which ended in the 1st century.

Is this "when" you are saying Jesus was "quickened [spiritually-resurrected]"? (perhaps, say, in 70ad?)

(Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.)
The above is the resurrection that Paul said was about to be when the Greek is literally rendered:
(Acts 24:15 Young's Literal) having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous ).

Recall, the word (you bold) can also mean "IS SURE to/ IS CERTAIN to" [mello, in Grk] (as it is prophesied to happen!)

 

[preston39]

The amillennial position is that Satan is bound in the sense that he cannot deceive the nations as a whole anymore..and the phrase "the nations" is a commonly used phrase to refer to Gentiles. Satan is not bound in every sense, only in this sense. He cannot prevent Christians from evangelizing and suppress the knowledge of the truth in a comprehensive manner like he did prior to the cross.

And.....do you deny that Christians are ruling with Jesus now? Are you really going to challenge me that I can't supply verses to this effect? By virtue of union with Christ, this is taught in Scripture. If you want me to show you verses, I will, but it will basically reveal that you aren't familiar with Scripture.

You can start with Ephesians 2:6-7. Believers are already seated with Jesus in his throne.

Geeeesssccch.......everything you said here is questionable. Please show us scriptures which support your thinking.
What is your definition of ....."amillennial"?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Presented with caveats [unmentioned]...
I think much of the following has value, on this subject:
Dr Paul Martin Henebury (aka Dr Reluctant [as in, 'Reluctant Dispensationalist']) -
https://sharperiron.org/article/forty-reasons-for-not-reinterpreting-ot-nt-last-twenty
https://sharperiron.org/article/forty-reasons-for-not-reinterpreting-ot-nt-first-twenty

[quoting from that second first part/link]
"33. It ignores the life-setting of the disciples’ question in Acts 1:6 in the context of their already having had forty days teaching about the very thing they asked about (“the kingdom” – see Acts 1:3). This reflects badly on the clarity of the Risen Lord’s teaching about the kingdom. But the tenacity with which these disciples still clung to literal fulfillments would also prove the validity of #’s 23, 26, 27, 28 & 32 above.

"34. This resistance to the clear expectation of the disciples also ignores the question of the disciples, which was about the timing of the restoration of the kingdom to Israel, not its nature."
[end quoting; underline mine]

Also, his few videos on the same/similar subject (at YouTube, I think), on "allegorizing scripture" (start with his first one, as it is the foundational one, I would say--sorry that it's in video form, when you asked for a book )
[this is not to say I agree with him 100% on every point of all of his teachings, mind you... but I generally agree with his overall direction, here...]

I finally had time to grab the link to the video (of a set of his videos on this subject),

by Paul Martin Henebury (I'm not entirely sure this one is the FIRST of the set, though... so you might look for the others in this set):

"Biblical Interpretation Series - Spiritualization" by Paul Martin Henebury [17:23 mins]

Hope this helps (and I hope it's the right one, lol)

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I found a very good set of audios on dispensationalism describing it in detail.

Did you know that many dispensationalists don't even believe the New Covenant is in effect?

Some, called progressive dispensationalists, believe it is in effect IN PART but not in full.

Anyways, this set of audios is really good.

Rob McKenzie is the main speaker, and he is explaining dispensational theology to his pastor. Rob is a former dispensationalist. He has studied this topic in depth, and has listened to thousands of sermons and read lots of books by dispensationalists from different eras.

https://reformedforum.org/tsp22/
https://reformedforum.org/tsp24/
https://reformedforum.org/tsp25/
https://reformedforum.org/tsp26/
https://reformedforum.org/tsp27/
https://reformedforum.org/tsp29/
https://reformedforum.org/tsp31/
https://reformedforum.org/tsp32/
https://reformedforum.org/tsp33/
https://reformedforum.org/tsp34/
https://reformedforum.org/tsp35/
https://reformedforum.org/tsp36/
https://reformedforum.org/tsp37/

Some follow up discussions:
https://reformedforum.org/tsp54/
https://reformedforum.org/tsp55/
https://reformedforum.org/tsp144/
https://reformedforum.org/tsp127/
https://reformedforum.org/tsp128/


As I have indicated, I don't believe dispensationalism. The above series indicates some of the problems with it, in a respectful manner. After listening to the audios, I can see better why dispensationalists believe their theology, though. Rob is very respectful toward dispensationalists in this series.

Realize that dispensationalism affects a lot of evangelical churches. In fact, I'd say about 80 percent of all evangelical churches are dispensational, and pastors are speaking from this perspective without their congregations being aware of it. So it is a pertinent topic and is something I am studying this year as part of my studies in hermeneutics.

Rob has written a book on this topic called Identifying the Seed.

https://smile.amazon.com/Identifyin...g+the+seed+rob+mckenzie&qid=1578305015&sr=8-1

 

[Guojing]

If your church believes in a pretribulation rapture, you are definitely dispensationalist. One of the characteristics of dispensationalism is the fact that they view the Church and Israel as two separate peoples of God.
.

This forum has shown me that this common thinking is not true.

We have Absolutely here who insist, rather aggressively, that there is a pre-trib rapture, yet he insist that he is not a dispensationalist and will respond just as aggressively against anyone who tries to distinguish between the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Grace.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

This forum has shown me that this common thinking is not true.

We have Absolutely here who insist, rather aggressively, that there is a pre-trib rapture, yet he insist that he is not a dispensationalist and will respond just as aggressively against anyone who tries to distinguish between the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Grace.

The whole reason for the pretribulation rapture is because the church age has ended, and God is going to start dealing with Israel again.

Some strange bird might adhere to a pretribulation rapture who is not dispensationalist, though.

 

[Guojing]

The whole reason for the pretribulation rapture is because the church age has ended, and God is going to start dealing with Israel again.

Some strange bird might adhere to a pretribulation rapture who is not dispensationalist, though.

Yes, Absolutely is the first non-dispensationalist I have encountered that somehow insisted on pre-trib rapture. His thread on this is still being discussed.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Yes, Absolutely is the first non-dispensationalist I have encountered that somehow insisted on pre-trib rapture. His thread on this is still being discussed.

LOL..

That's funny.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Rob has written a book on this topic called Identifying the Seed.

Assuming you've read his book, does he distinguish between the "seed [singular]" and the "seed [plural]" in the Genesis passages?