Apostasy 101

[Nehemiah6]

To those who claim Grace cannot be lost, how then does the bible say that it is lost here?

That is NOT what the Bible says here. So first of all get rid of the idea that people can lose their salvation.

THERE IS AN "IF" HERE FOR THOSE WHO THINK THEY CAN BE JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. [Note: this is a word of warning]

CHRISTIANS WHO PUT THEMSELVES UNDER THE LAW WILL BE OBLIGED TO KEEP THE WHOLE LAW (WHICH IS IMPOSSIBLE)
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole Law.

THE FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST WILL BECOME MEANINGLESS TO THEM
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law...

THESE CHRISTIANS WILL DEPART FROM GRACE AND SEEK TO BE JUSTIFIED BY TORAH OBSERVANCE
...ye are fallen* from grace.

*Strong's Concordance
ekpipto: I fall out, fall off, fall away, fade away, wither away
Original Word: ἐκπίπτω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: ekpipto
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-pip'-to)
Definition: to leap out
Usage: I fall out, fall off, fall away; hence in nautical language: I fall off from the straight course; of flowers: I fade away, wither away; I fall from, lose, forfeit; I am cast ashore; I am fruitless.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1601: ἐκπίπτω
2. metaphorically,
a. τίνος (Winers Grammar, 427 (398), and De verb. comp. etc. as above), to fall from a thing, to lose it: τῆς χάριτος, Galatians 5:4; τοῦ ἰδίου στηριγμοῦ, 2 Peter 3:17 (τῆς πρόςτόν δῆμον εὐνοίας, Plutarch, Tib. Gracch. 21; βασιλείας,Josephus, Antiquities 7, 9, 2; also with prepositions, ἐκ τῶνἐοντων, Herodotus 3, 14; ἀπό τῶν ἐλπίδων, Thucydides 8, 81); πόθεν, Revelation 2:5 Rec. (ἐκεῖθεν, Aelian v. h. 4, 7).

Even though Paul says "ye ARE fallen" what he means is "you SHALL HAVE" departed from grace. Which means that these Christians would be walking away from grace and walking into the bondage of keeping the Law. This does not mean that the Galatians had succumbed to this foolishness. And that is why we read this in verse 10: I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

 

[Chris1975]

That is NOT what the Bible says here. So first of all get rid of the idea that people can lose their salvation.

THERE IS AN "IF" HERE FOR THOSE WHO THINK THEY CAN BE JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. [Note: this is a word of warning]

CHRISTIANS WHO PUT THEMSELVES UNDER THE LAW WILL BE OBLIGED TO KEEP THE WHOLE LAW (WHICH IS IMPOSSIBLE)
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole Law.

THE FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST WILL BECOME MEANINGLESS TO THEM
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law...

THESE CHRISTIANS WILL DEPART FROM GRACE AND SEEK TO BE JUSTIFIED BY TORAH OBSERVANCE
...ye are fallen* from grace.

*Strong's Concordance
ekpipto: I fall out, fall off, fall away, fade away, wither away
Original Word: ἐκπίπτω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: ekpipto
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-pip'-to)
Definition: to leap out
Usage: I fall out, fall off, fall away; hence in nautical language: I fall off from the straight course; of flowers: I fade away, wither away; I fall from, lose, forfeit; I am cast ashore; I am fruitless.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1601: ἐκπίπτω
2. metaphorically,
a. τίνος (Winers Grammar, 427 (398), and De verb. comp. etc. as above), to fall from a thing, to lose it: τῆς χάριτος, Galatians 5:4; τοῦ ἰδίου στηριγμοῦ, 2 Peter 3:17 (τῆς πρόςτόν δῆμον εὐνοίας, Plutarch, Tib. Gracch. 21; βασιλείας,Josephus, Antiquities 7, 9, 2; also with prepositions, ἐκ τῶνἐοντων, Herodotus 3, 14; ἀπό τῶν ἐλπίδων, Thucydides 8, 81); πόθεν, Revelation 2:5 Rec. (ἐκεῖθεν, Aelian v. h. 4, 7).

Even though Paul says "ye ARE fallen" what he means is "you SHALL HAVE" departed from grace. Which means that these Christians would be walking away from grace and walking into the bondage of keeping the Law. This does not mean that the Galatians had succumbed to this foolishness. And that is why we read this in verse 10: I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

They could not be already in his Grace unless they believed and are included in the church. Paul is not writing to the heathen. Therefore he warns them about falling from grace. The English is very plain and straightforward. Needs no re-engineering and twisting. Your Green font definition supports exactly my assertion here.

 

[stillness]

Its directed to the church. The only time Paul uses "you" is when he is rebuking those who seem to be once again falling back to their old ways of which he (Paul) is not included. Did you see how many hoops you have to jump through to force fit your doctrine. Starts becoming comical, if it were not so dangerous.

Have to admire your responce without feling you need to defend yourself. Those who think they cant fall from Grace dont feel thus. In my observation they are entrenched in war to defend their view. If it was True it would not need to be defended. God does not need our help, but we constantly nees to relie on influence of Grace; and can always be restored as long as we dont reject the Holy Spirit: as we forgive God forgives and restores us.

 

[Chris1975]

Matthew 24
(1) 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
(2) 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.
(3) 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Three verses. One after the other. Verses that say so much and are inextricably linked to the Spiritual warfare here on the forum.

John 14v15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.

1 John 2v3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3v4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
2 Thessalonians 2
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

 

[Nehemiah6]

They could not be already in his Grace unless they believed and are included in the church. Paul is not writing to the heathen. Therefore he warns them about falling from grace. The English is very plain and straightforward. Needs no re-engineering and twisting. Your Green font definition supports exactly my assertion here.

As I showed you IT WAS ALL HYPOTHETICAL. No one had fallen from grace. But you ignored the Scripture that established this.

 

[Chris1975]

As I showed you IT WAS ALL HYPOTHETICAL. No one had fallen from grace. But you ignored the Scripture that established this.

Wow, so are you saying that Paul would use a Hypothetical example to warn people about falling from Grace if there is no truth to the possibility of that happening? Is Paul dealing in fiction?

 

[stillness]

As I showed you IT WAS ALL HYPOTHETICAL. No one had fallen from grace. But you ignored the Scripture that established this.

Why then do you meed to defend your view: if we cant fall from Grace we are perfect as Saints. "The servant of the Lors must not strive, or quarel." Some think they are already perfect and have not got past being babes in Christ. Read my post on "What must we do that we might work the works of God." And pay attention to the one teling you about forcing a view to make it fit. We dont need to do any such thing when we are perfect, as by then we have let go of the view of our understanding, as we dont know God in our understanding. "Lean not on your understanding, but trust in the Lord." Trust in the Lord, is the power of the Holy Spirit to enter in at the straight Gate: as we Love the Truth more than our own lives, more than our necesary food. Until we let go of what we think we know, we stay where we are, too insecure to go on. We as men learn in the fellowship of the suferings of Christ, and women mostly learn to Love in rearing children; nless they chose to atend uppon the Lord wihjout distraction and remain single: generaly eadier for wimen than men to remain single, but we all have trouble to be in admiration worship without distraction. I will be getting married to a Catholc women this year. The Lord had to set me straight on that, about seven times.

 

[Whispered]

The irony is not lost on this one.

I have just posted on another thread where debaters tried to apply a passage of scripture as applying to Corporate Israel where it can be clearly seen that this applies to individuals as well. https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-6016#post-4122960

Now we have a post in Romans 11 which applies to Corporate Israel and not individuals.

Let's put all of the surrounding verses so that we see the full context.

Romans 11
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has [h]committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

You may choose to avail yourself of an opportunity a search engine affords . This so that you can seek out scholarly commentary as pertains to proper understanding of the Book of Romans chapter 11, since you do not realize that both Israel and the Gentiles are being spoken of and to there.
Gentiles are grafted in and therefore Corporate Israel includes Gentiles.

 

[Chris1975]

You may choose to avail yourself of an opportunity a search engine affords . This so that you can seek out scholarly commentary as pertains to proper understanding of the Book of Romans chapter 11, since you do not realize that both Israel and the Gentiles are being spoken of and to there.
Gentiles are grafted in and therefore Corporate Israel includes Gentiles.

Verse 1 talks about His people, Israel. Therin is the context. And yes it also refers to the gentiles within this chapter. You seem to miss the point I was making.

 

[Whispered]

Post Nr 10 https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/apostasy-101.189485/#post-4121621

Grandpa, I'm going by what is written in the scriptures.

1 Timothy 4
4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

It is possible to once again be deceived. Hence all the warnings to the church about this. Take the above scripture at face value.

Yes, and those are like unto what Jesus observed when certain of His Apostles left Him. They departed from us because they were not one with us.
Those who depart from the faith and never return did not hold faith, nor understand the Salvific Gospel message of Christ.
That's why the Saint Apostle Paul spoke of such people in his letter to the Hebrews and chapter 6.

4.For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

In other words, when a people profess faith in the Gospel and all that it conveys, and then depart never to return, they can never again be restored to that repentant state because they neither comprehended nor respected it when they first professed faith in it.
Therefore, in thinking they can return unto repentance, they're then crucifying Jesus once again when thinking they can now honor and respect the Gospel message that they abandoned with contempt when they previously claimed to hold faith in it for all that it meant for their eternal soul.

 

[Whispered]

Verse 1 talks about His people, Israel. Therin is the context. And yes it also refers to the gentiles within this chapter. You seem to miss the point I was making.

How so?

 

[mailmandan]

As I showed you IT WAS ALL HYPOTHETICAL. No one had fallen from grace. But you ignored the Scripture that established this.

The present tense of the word "justified" in Galatians 5:4 implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. But had they fully come to that place yet? They were obviously getting side tracked by legalistic teachers, but I don't see conclusive evidence that they"lost their salvation” either.

Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

If it was a done deal and these Galatians lost their salvation, then it would be superfluous for Paul say in verse 10 - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is? In verse 12, Paul goes on to use hyperbole - As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

 

[Whispered]

Matthew 24
(1) 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
(2) 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.
(3) 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Three verses. One after the other. Verses that say so much and are inextricably linked to the Spiritual warfare here on the forum.

John 14v15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.

1 John 2v3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3v4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
2 Thessalonians 2
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

Are you hoping we will infer you are trolling these forums through the implication in those scriptures? "Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many."

 

[Chris1975]

Yes, and those are like unto what Jesus observed when certain of His Apostles left Him. They departed from us because they were not one with us.
Those who depart from the faith and never return did not hold faith, nor understand the Salvific Gospel message of Christ.
That's why the Saint Apostle Paul spoke of such people in his letter to the Hebrews and chapter 6.

4.For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

In other words, when a people profess faith in the Gospel and all that it conveys, and then depart never to return, they can never again be restored to that repentant state because they neither comprehended nor respected it when they first professed faith in it.
Therefore, in thinking they can return unto repentance, they're then crucifying Jesus once again when thinking they can now honor and respect the Gospel message that they abandoned with contempt when they previously claimed to hold faith in it for all that it meant for their eternal soul.

This is very wobbly.
You say:
1) They professes faith, but didn't really believe.
2) They fell away (from something they never believed)
3) They are completely cut off for rejecting Christ's GIFT and SHARING IN THE HOLY SPIRIT (but remember they never really believed)
4) And they have no way back to a saving faith (once again crucifying Christ) but they never had it in the first place.

See...very, very wobbly.

 

[Chris1975]

How so?

The point was the corporate context of Israel (and the Gentiles) in regards to verse 29. You have to scroll back to the conversation thread.

 

[Whispered]

This is very wobbly.
You say:
1) They professes faith, but didn't really believe.
2) They fell away (from something they never believed)
3) They are completely cut off for rejecting Christ's GIFT and SHARING IN THE HOLY SPIRIT (but remember they never really believed)
4) And they have no way back to a saving faith (once again crucifying Christ) but they never had it in the first place.

See...very, very wobbly.

I consider the source.
We cannot lose our salvation. People who claim to have faith and then depart their faith never to return, never had faith in the first place, and were not actually in God's grace, or one with God, because we cannot actually fall away from the free irrevocable gift of God's saving grace.

When such people claim they're going to hold faith this time, as if they're coming to Christ for real this time, its like unto crucifying Christ all over again, which is a mockery, when they say what they claimed to believe before and didn't is what they now what to take advantage of for real.

 

[Whispered]

The point was the corporate context of Israel (and the Gentiles) in regards to verse 29. You have to scroll back to the conversation thread.

29.Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the later times some will desert the faith and occupy themselves with deceiving spirits and demonic teachings,

 

[Chris1975]

I consider the source.
We cannot lose our salvation. People who claim to have faith and then depart their faith never to return, never had faith in the first place, and were not actually in God's grace, or one with God, because we cannot actually fall away from the free irrevocable gift of God's saving grace.

When such people claim they're going to hold faith this time, as if they're coming to Christ for real this time, its like unto crucifying Christ all over again, which is a mockery, when they say what they claimed to believe before and didn't is what they now what to take advantage of for real.

When you say irrevocable gift, I believe you are quoting Romans 11v29 (which refers to corporate Israel / and as you say reference to the Gentiles as well). Let's look at the passage:

Romans 11
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has [h]committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

So you can see from the above that God has not cut off Israel as a whole from the gifts and calling. This has nothing to do with individuals. He (God) will save a remnant. He has always promised this and He will fulfil this. The time of the Gentile is coming to a close. The Gentiles who did not believe and have a love for the truth will be sent a strong delusion, and Israel's eyes will be opened again.

Now look at the same verse in Hebrews 6 above, which deals with individuals:

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 [c]if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

 

[Chris1975]

29.Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the later times some will desert the faith and occupy themselves with deceiving spirits and demonic teachings,

No, I'm referring to this verse --- 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

 

[Whispered]

No, I'm referring to this verse --- 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Yes, we can never lose our salvation. God will never make us to be "unsaved". Nor are those who are genuinely in His grace able to become unsaved, for all that that would mean, which would be that of returning to their former dead in sins state.