Not By Works

[Chris1975]

This was a very simple example. A very practical case that happens daily in the world, and unfortunately in the church. A Christian man has after a number of years begun an affair with another mans wife. Unrepentant, he dies.

You, by your own words have quoted 1 John 3 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

Yet confronted with the above scenario, you cannot bring acknowledgement of the practicality of the verses you have quoted. And the reason you cant is because of the house of cards which will come collapsing down on the OSAS fallacy.

1 John 1
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

We look at the 1 John 1 passage above. This man did not confess his sins (probably because he didn't see need to because he thought that nothing could affect his salvation, because he was taught and believed that his conversion 15 years ago was a done deal and secure ticket into heaven). So he didn't see the need for repentance, because, hey, he repented 15 years ago, right?

This is the danger with the OSAS doctrine. Its not scriptural. You think you understand the passages about eternal security but you have misunderstood their application. You are not on solid ground but thin ice.

2 Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

 

[Chris1975]

Romans 2
4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your [a]impenitent heart you are [b]treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish,

 

[Chris1975]

James 1
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

 

[EleventhHour]

James 1
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

Not about salvation

 

[EleventhHour]

Romans 2
4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your [a]impenitent heart you are [b]treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish,

Yes and the born again believer has obeyed the truth that is why they are born again.

 

[EleventhHour]

2 Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

Nothing that teaches salvation is lost/revoked/forsaken here.

 

[Chris1975]

Nothing that teaches salvation is lost/revoked/forsaken here.

I use colours to help you.

 

[JohnR7]

It does not get any plainer..........Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation!

English Standard Version
he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Berean Study Bible
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Berean Literal Bible
He saved us, not by works in righteousness that we did, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

New American Standard Bible
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

King James Bible
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Works do not save us. They are evidence that we are saved. Jesus died at Calvary so that we could be right with God. This is what it means to be born again and a new creation in Christ.

 

[EleventhHour]

I use colours to help you.

I do not need any help... the gospel message is clear eternally saved by grace through faith apart form works... eternally justified....... no double jeopardy!!

 

[Chris1975]

Works do not save us. They are evidence that we are saved. Jesus died at Calvary so that we could be right with God. This is what it means to be born again and a new creation in Christ.

Welcome John, good to see your first post. What are your thoughts about the new creation? How is the new creation different to the old man?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This was a very simple example. A very practical case that happens daily in the world, and unfortunately in the church. A Christian man has after a number of years begun an affair with another mans wife. Unrepentant, he dies.

You, by your own words have quoted 1 John 3 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

Yet confronted with the above scenario, you cannot bring acknowledgement of the practicality of the verses you have quoted. And the reason you cant is because of the house of cards which will come collapsing down on the OSAS fallacy.

1 John 1
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

We look at the 1 John 1 passage above. This man did not confess his sins (probably because he didn't see need to because he thought that nothing could affect his salvation, because he was taught and believed that his conversion 15 years ago was a done deal and secure ticket into heaven). So he didn't see the need for repentance, because, hey, he repented 15 years ago, right?

This is the danger with the OSAS doctrine. Its not scriptural. You think you understand the passages about eternal security but you have misunderstood their application. You are not on solid ground but thin ice.

Her is the problem

you people focus on a few sins, and puff yourself up as if your so much better than they are, when the fact is, you where you stand are just as guilty as they are.
its why you reject grace, in order for you to receive grace. You have to admit first you are just as guilty as those you continue to judge, Just like the pharisee, You refuse to do this, because your pride is too deep.

is that Guy in sin? Of course he is, Then again, David commited murder and adultry, and had multiple wives up till the time he died. So whole yes he confessed his 2 grave sins, He still lived in adultry up until he died. But you people can not see this. All you can do is look at those who you think are worse than you, So you can puff yourself up

Its a main symptom of legalism, When your legalistic, you have to make sure you better than other. So what do you do. Well you judge those who have these so called grave sins, that way you can look at yourself and say, Yep. I am not like them, I am ok.

Yeah well the pharisee said the same thing, because h too suffered from pride and refusal to acknowledge how sinful he really was. So as jesus said, He went home UNjustified. Because he never repented.

I suggest you stop worrying about what others do. And start worrying about reopening yourself.

as fr john living in sin is having a lifestyle of sin, As you did when you was in the world. Were every minute of yoru life was lived in sin.

Having one besetting sin is not living in sin.

If it is. NO ONE knows God. Not you. Not me. Not anyone. We are all doomed to hell

if thats the case, see you there

However, I will nto be there, I repented. I came to faith. I trust in God. Because my hope is in him. Because I KNOW my flesh. And it is not prety.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Works do not save us. They are evidence that we are saved. Jesus died at Calvary so that we could be right with God. This is what it means to be born again and a new creation in Christ.

Amen

But just for clarification. Does God need to see works. or dos he KNOW works will come, because a person has true faith.

 

[Chris1975]

Her is the problem

you people focus on a few sins, and puff yourself up as if your so much better than they are, when the fact is, you where you stand are just as guilty as they are.
its why you reject grace, in order for you to receive grace. You have to admit first you are just as guilty as those you continue to judge, Just like the pharisee, You refuse to do this, because your pride is too deep.

is that Guy in sin? Of course he is, Then again, David commited murder and adultry, and had multiple wives up till the time he died. So whole yes he confessed his 2 grave sins, He still lived in adultry up until he died. But you people can not see this. All you can do is look at those who you think are worse than you, So you can puff yourself up

Its a main symptom of legalism, When your legalistic, you have to make sure you better than other. So what do you do. Well you judge those who have these so called grave sins, that way you can look at yourself and say, Yep. I am not like them, I am ok.

Yeah well the pharisee said the same thing, because h too suffered from pride and refusal to acknowledge how sinful he really was. So as jesus said, He went home UNjustified. Because he never repented.

I suggest you stop worrying about what others do. And start worrying about reopening yourself.

as fr john living in sin is having a lifestyle of sin, As you did when you was in the world. Were every minute of yoru life was lived in sin.

Having one besetting sin is not living in sin.

If it is. NO ONE knows God. Not you. Not me. Not anyone. We are all doomed to hell

if thats the case, see you there

However, I will nto be there, I repented. I came to faith. I trust in God. Because my hope is in him. Because I KNOW my flesh. And it is not prety.

You are having a field day projecting stuff onto me and accusing me of the things you do. When have I said I am better than they? Feel free to put a link to my post. Almost everything you have said about me above is a untrue, and probably the result of some level of desperation that the doctrine upon which you stand is being dismantled here, bit by bit, because, quite frankly, it doesn't stand up to scriptural integrity. So instead you resort to playing the man. I will say no more about this other than what I have just stated. I personally have nothing against you. This is a bible discussion forum, and that, as far as I am concerned, is what we are doing.

Now that you bring up David, thats a great place to further our discussion. He committed adultery with Bathsheba, put Uriah is harms way and effectively killed. Was confronted by a prophet (his sins were exposed by a prophet - which you may say is not allowed anymore based on your dialogue above), and he repented. I will say it again. He REPENTED. That is one of the key differences between David and Saul. One was repentant, the other not. David paid a heavy price for all of this, through the death of 4 of his children (4x the lives lost versus the one he took - Uriah). These things came upon David in this life. David no longer lived in Adultery, because the Law of Marriage is only in Effect if your spouse is still alive. Feel free to read Romans 7v2 in case you need clarification on this. Neither was having multiple wives a sin. Actually it is still not a sin. Not that I would personally recommend it. You see you need to understand that Marriage is actually created by GOD as symbolic of our relationship with Christ. He is the Bridegroom, and we COLLECTIVELY all believers male and female are the BRIDE. Therefore it is not unlawful for a husband to have multiple wives. Because this is the heavenly pattern. There will be a wonderful wedding feast one day, and I sincerely hope we can meet up (finally) and have a good laugh over these discussions that we had on this forum.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are having a field day projecting stuff onto me and accusing me of the things you do. When have I said I am better than they? Feel free to put a link to my post. Almost everything you have said about me above is a untrue, and probably the result of some level of desperation that the doctrine upon which you stand is being dismantled here, bit by bit, because, quite frankly, it doesn't stand up to scriptural integrity. So instead you resort to playing the man. I will say no more about this other than what I have just stated. I personally have nothing against you. This is a bible discussion forum, and that, as far as I am concerned, is what we are doing.

Now that you bring up David, thats a great place to further our discussion. He committed adultery with Bathsheba, put Uriah is harms way and effectively killed. Was confronted by a prophet (his sins were exposed by a prophet - which you may say is not allowed anymore based on your dialogue above), and he repented. I will say it again. He REPENTED. That is one of the key differences between David and Saul. One was repentant, the other not. David paid a heavy price for all of this, through the death of 4 of his children (4x the lives lost versus the one he took - Uriah). These things came upon David in this life. David no longer lived in Adultery, because the Law of Marriage is only in Effect if your spouse is still alive. Feel free to read Romans 7v2 in case you need clarification on this. Neither was having multiple wives a sin. Actually it is still not a sin. Not that I would personally recommend it. You see you need to understand that Marriage is actually created by GOD as symbolic of our relationship with Christ. He is the Bridegroom, and we COLLECTIVELY all believers male and female are the BRIDE. Therefore it is not unlawful for a husband to have multiple wives. Because this is the heavenly pattern. There will be a wonderful wedding feast one day, and I sincerely hope we can meet up (finally) and have a good laugh over these discussions that we had on this forum.

you claim your better than they everytime you mention them and demand they must repent. You judge, the Bible says judge not lest ye be judged, You forget, your supposed to remove the log before you try to remove a spec.

And there you go again, Another accusation. I do not think someone to be confronted? What a joke man, All you know how to do is judge people its no wonder you can;t find grace. Your to busy looking for people to judge.

1. He shoudl be confronted. As should the man in your example, and if he does not stop. The Bible tells us how we should react. Up to and including, telling him to leave. (I know. You think I would never believe such a thing, But thats ok, It just proves once again, You have NO IDEA wha I believe. Just like all your brothers who came before.)
2. Thats not the context here. The context is can salvation be lost (must it be earned) not sanctification. Or christian growth.

but as usual.

ps. If you read what I wrote, You will see I said david confessed those sins. But as usual you just ignored my words, and tried to judge me saying Nathan should not even have confronted him in my view. Just another lie

For a man who promoted obedience, There is one command you continually break over and over, Yet you cant see it, because again your tryign to judge everyone else.

Its getting to the point its laughable.

 

[JohnR7]

Amen

But just for clarification. Does God need to see works. or dos he KNOW works will come, because a person has true faith.

God does the works in us and through us. "for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose." (Philip 2:13) We are a vessel that He uses and we need to be Holy & Sanctified so that we can honor Him.

David tells us in Psalm 139:16 that God has written the book of our life before we were born. Every chapter and verse. The angels only do the will of God and they help us to become the person God Created us to be. We know that God is going to accomplish His plan and purpose and all of Creation is going to be restored. The angels are watching us and writing a book of how we are living our life. The day will come when those books well be opened and people will be judged according to what they did and how they lived their life. There will be rewards and there will be people that suffer loss. They will not receive all of what they could have had. "Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done." (Rev 20:12)

We are to walk in love and love means to do no harm to others. For example I could not work in a convenience store because there is to much in there that is harmful to people.

 

[John146]

David tells us in Psalm 139:16 that God has written the book of our life before we were born. Every chapter and verse.

That’s not what it says. There’s order in how God forms us in the womb, every member in it’s own order until we are fashioned together.

15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

 

[Butterflyyy]

Why did u direct this at me?

Because they have responded to your message with a disagree sign- my apologies lol

 

[JohnR7]

These things came upon David in this life. David no longer lived in Adultery, because the Law of Marriage is only in Effect if your spouse is still alive.

How do you explain the fact that with all of the children David had the Kingdom went to Solomon the son of David and Bathsheba? Some people call this the Scarlet Thread, the Blood line of Jesus going back to Eve: "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." (Genesis3:15)

And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman who was deceived and fell into transgression. Women, however, will be saved through childbearing, if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. (1Timothy 2:14,15)

It was Mary who birthed Jesus and He is the one that destroyed the works of the serpent in the Garden of Eden. Eve, Bathsheba, Mary had literal children. For most women perhaps this means that Jesus is to be spiritually birthed inside of them.

 

[EleventhHour]

Because they have responded to your message with a disagree sign- my apologies lol

Here it is ... our resident troll @dcontroversal .... typically banned within a New York minute.

I_Love_The_Pope
Jul 22, 2019

Disagree X

 

[EleventhHour]

God does the works in us and through us. "for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose." (Philip 2:13) We are a vessel that He uses and we need to be Holy & Sanctified so that we can honor Him.

David tells us in Psalm 139:16 that God has written the book of our life before we were born. Every chapter and verse. The angels only do the will of God and they help us to become the person God Created us to be. We know that God is going to accomplish His plan and purpose and all of Creation is going to be restored. The angels are watching us and writing a book of how we are living our life. The day will come when those books well be opened and people will be judged according to what they did and how they lived their life. There will be rewards and there will be people that suffer loss. They will not receive all of what they could have had. "Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done." (Rev 20:12)

We are to walk in love and love means to do no harm to others. For example I could not work in a convenience store because there is to much in there that is harmful to people.

Only Jesus is Holy and Sanctified.