Not By Works

[Judges1318]

I know nothing about Calvinist teaching.

You do if you think God predetermined ahead of time who will be purposely made a believer who can only believe, and who will purposely be made an unbeliever who can never believe. You probably just didn't know that doctrine originates from Calvin.

What upsets me is that people like me and others are accused of saying it's ok to sin all we want and be saved. Yet I that is not true

As long as you never say it's okay to sin all you want and you will still be saved when Jesus comes back because salvation is not by works and because you can't lose your salvation anyway then you won't be accused of saying that. Old school once saved always saved resisted that teaching. The new once saved always saved embraces that teaching and even celebrates it.

 

[Judges1318]

Not all Eternal Security believers hold that a believer could stop believing and still be saved.

^^^^^^
Thank God !

Yes, but their numbers are dwindling fast.

Me? I'll stay in the camp that says salvation is eternally secure because Christ's ministry and his sacrifice never fizzle out like the Levitical ministry and sacrifices did, and that's why we should not abandon hope in it. This side of glorification, eternal security does not mean you can not forfeit it as is popularly taught. It means Christ is the ultimate High Priest of God who never fails those who continue to rely on Him to do what he said he can and surely will do for them, forever.

 

[BillG]

That was earlier in the discussion. But you can see in the posts I provided that I was talking about believing God in regard to what he said about salvation.

Can you please explain how I jumped from 1 John 5 that you said I responded to when I responded to your post concerning Hebrews.

Why and how have you connected this?

You could put this to bed for me considering the fact of what what you responded to concerning a believer who cannot get or accept that God loves them as as he loves Jesus.

I asked the question what then?
You said not saved.

Do you stick by this?

 

[Judges1318]

You could put this to bed for me considering the fact of what what you responded to concerning a believer who cannot get or accept that God loves them as as he loves Jesus.

I asked the question what then?
You said not saved.

Do you stick by this?

Now that I know you were not talking about salvation itself (as I was), no, I do not put them in the 'not saved' category of the blasphemer of the Holy Spirit.

 

[VCO]

Yer "missing" the whole point dude!
It's not "robot making!" Not at all!
Tis an honor, of overcoming oneself, in God seeing fit for one to be "snatched" (drafted) into "His Army!"
BTW? This is not being "raptured."

And you do not understand what raptured is, ONLY YOUR OWN MISTRANSLATION of the word.

Quote:
Greek word harpazo. It literally means “to snatch out” or “to seize.” It’s like a thief grabbing a purse. He seizes it. The word Rapture comes from the Latin Vulgate (which is the Latin Bible) rendering of raptus from which we get the popular term Rapture. So if you were reading your Latin Bible and you got down to 1 Thess. 4:17 you would see raptus, rapture. That’s where the Bible teaches the Rapture. It means we have been snatched out; we’ve been caught up by a mighty act of power by the Lord. This is where the Bible teaches the Rapture of all believers. “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore, comfort one another with these words.”
https://articles.mycrashlab.com/art...hecy/what-is-the-meaning-of-the-word-rapture/

So it uses the Greek word harpazo (Ancient Greek: ἁρπάζω), meaning "to snatch away" or "to seize," and explains that believers in Jesus Christ will be snatched away from earth into the air.

It would do no good to try to Explain it to you. For others, I have a Thread that I started on the whole subject, ask and I will provide the Link to the Thread.

 

[BillG]

Now that I know you were not talking about salvation itself (as I was), no, I do not put them in the 'not saved' category of the blasphemer of the Holy Spirit.

Thank you.

 

[VCO]

We have not sang this song in awhile. It brought tears to my eyes this morning. What a POWERFUL SONG, IT SAYS IT ALL!

 

[Melach]

Yes, but their numbers are dwindling fast.

Me? I'll stay in the camp that says salvation is eternally secure because Christ's ministry and his sacrifice never fizzle out like the Levitical ministry and sacrifices did, and that's why we should not abandon hope in it. This side of glorification, eternal security does not mean you can not forfeit it as is popularly taught. It means Christ is the ultimate High Priest of God who never fails those who continue to rely on Him to do what he said he can and surely will do for them, forever.

if i understood you correct you are saying its not saved by good works but by trusting in the sacrifice Jesus provided? but you believe that we can stop believing and trusting in that sacrifice? is that what you're saying?

what if i stop believing in it today, but tomorrow i repent and start belief again? am i saved now?

but anyway, did you consider calvinist version that maybe God protects elect so they continue to belief? you said something about elect being the ones who persevere and not all believers are elect. is that what you mean? i cant really put you in as calvinist or osas or works salvationist lolz hard to categorize you honestly. tell me if i understand you correctly.

 

[RebuildJesussChurch]

You missed my who point
far to many of yu are like Saul. You boast of how righteous you are. You preach about how all you deem to be sinners stop sin (while ignoring your own sin) you puff yourself up to be something you are not. You last in rules. Not love.
saul repented, and became paul, he stopped boasting about how great he thought he was, he still considered himself a chief of sinners, he refused to buy into a works based self righteous gospel, which he called foolish and turned to a gospel of grace which he used to empower his faith and his walk. Knowing no matter how much he messes up (and he claimed to mess up a lot) God was still his father and would never leave nor forsake him.

you people want to make yourselves what your not, you claim to have faith in God, yet it is known and seen by all your faith is in yourself.
turn from your sin (yes your sin) turn to Christ, and become like Paul. Move away from your Salish gospel, and pray God knocks you off whatever is carrying you on your way do Damascus.

Job's friends really multiplied over the centuries.
We, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, since the Spirit of God lives in us.
Isn't it great to truly be in Christ Jesus? And not just clicking our heals together about it like Dorothy. Before Jesus sovereignly laid hold of my life, that was me. In my pew, claiming Romans 8:1 but knowing nothing of the life detailed in the verses that followed.

But learn what this means: Righteous men will sentence Oholah and Oholibah to the punishment of women who commit adultery and shed blood, because they are adulterous and blood is on their hands.

"Out of Egypt I called My son." Is God referring to Israel or Jesus? Yes. Then learn who the 2 sisters are. The older sister Oholah - "she has a tent". The younger Oholibah - "a tent is in her". Ezekiel 23. The salt lost its savor. What did the Master say is it good for?

As Isaiah foretold: The sinners in Zion are terrified; fearfulness has surprised the hypocrites: "Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?"

The Psalm 15 man.

That will go over like a lead balloon but it's because your sins are so many and your hostility so great, the prophet is considered a fool, the spiritual man insane.

 

[Judges1318]

if i understood you correct you are saying its not saved by good works but by trusting in the sacrifice Jesus provided?

Yes.

but you believe that we can stop believing and trusting in that sacrifice? is that what you're saying?

Yes. The saved Galatians did.

what if i stop believing in it today, but tomorrow i repent and start belief again? am i saved now?

Depends on whatever mitigating circumstances God thinks apply to your situation.
We know he gave the Galatians space to repent and come back to faith in Christ for justification, all the while knowing that, ultimately, God does not give a person a second chance to be saved once he has turned them over to their unbelief.

but anyway, did you consider calvinist version that maybe God protects elect so they continue to belief?

It's the part about God picking people to be believers and others to not be believers outside of any consideration whatsoever of what they may want that rubs me the wrong way. What a meaningless gospel.

you said something about elect being the ones who persevere and not all believers are elect. is that what you mean?

No, I believe that was Chris1975 who said that. I would have to study it more before I could comment on it.

i cant really put you in as calvinist or osas or works salvationist lolz hard to categorize you honestly. tell me if i understand you correctly.

If I'm not Calvinist, or osas, or a works salvationist, what's left then? It seems that you and many others never thought of the possibility that there are those of us who simply believe that you are saved as long as you are believing in Christ. And even if you stop believing, God is patient and doesn't harden you in that position of unbelief until he, in his wisdom and insight, knows you've been granted just and gracious time to come back to faith in Christ according to your particular mitigating circumstances. It's the simplest and most plainly understood, uncomplicated message of salvation and which actually matches the plain words of the Bible. No special twisting and interpreting of scripture to make it fit.

 

[dcontroversal]

DoY - Dcontroversial doesn't believe that ongoing sin can have any effect on the eternal security once someone has initially accepted Christ. So once you are saved, your behaviour from that point could be the worst of the worst (even worse than before your conversion) but you would still be granted access into heaven. Because he and others believe in Once Saved Always Saved which is positionally given AT A POINT IN TIME, ONCE AND FOREVER.

Therefore in order to maintain this position they say nobody can EVER draw back from God (even of their own accord), no-one can ever fall into Apostasy. And when presented with gospel scriptures showing that this is possible, you have all sort of creativity occurring and word play (any thing from the Greek doesn't mean this but it means that, or very creative solutions to the problem).

There are many on this forum who think in either the same way or very similar. We have even come across people saying that it is not necessary to CONTINUE to BELIEVE. Can you imagine.

So welcome to the forum. Be prepared to fight the good fight of faith.

Dude....you are openly lying about me!

 

[dcontroversal]

I'm not sure of everyone's exact position here and I'll let Dcontroversal speak for himself, but I can say that the things you are claiming to be held are not the positions of the majority of people who believe in Eternal Security.

And you know by what I have written that he is lying openly about me and my position on sin......

 

[Judges1318]

Job's friends really multiplied over the centuries.
We, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, since the Spirit of God lives in us.
Isn't it great to truly be in Christ Jesus? And not just clicking our heals together about it like Dorothy. Before Jesus sovereignly laid hold of my life, that was me. In my pew, claiming Romans 8:1 but knowing nothing of the life detailed in the verses that followed.

But learn what this means: Righteous men will sentence Oholah and Oholibah to the punishment of women who commit adultery and shed blood, because they are adulterous and blood is on their hands.

"Out of Egypt I called My son." Is God referring to Israel or Jesus? Yes. Then learn who the 2 sisters are. The older sister Oholah - "she has a tent". The younger Oholibah - "a tent is in her". Ezekiel 23. The salt lost its savor. What did the Master say is it good for?

As Isaiah foretold: The sinners in Zion are terrified; fearfulness has surprised the hypocrites: "Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?"

The Psalm 15 man.

That will go over like a lead balloon but it's because your sins are so many and your hostility so great, the prophet is considered a fool, the spiritual man insane.

A person would definitely have to be more than just a casual Bible reader to know these Biblical references.

 

[dcontroversal]

A believer does not stop believing

john said so, you keep fighting g against John.

your fighting God.

god does not give people reason to stop entrusti g their eternity to him

parts of our life? Yes, but that is not essential for salvation, what kids trusts any parent completely

He cannot grasp that truth.....Peter is a prime example......He trusted JESUS as the Messiah, JESUS said he had not gotten that truth from MAN, but from on HIGH....he was an eternally saved man by faith, but in moments of doubt or weakness (walking on water, questioned about knowing JESUS) he failed, but NEVER lost his salvation....Ralph, Chris and a few others are peddling a false gospel that is NOT from ABOVE......it comes from the fallen one, and it is as dangerous as it comes because it leads to error and a gospel which has no power to save a man......!!

 

[dcontroversal]

discern I know your trying to be kind and all, but this is a bold faced lie from this person and needs to be called out.

this guy bases his whole faith on lieing about what other people say or believe.

this is why some people get angry because it has been going on for too long

He is not the only ONE........I have been lied about openly now by another falsie......saying I want my SIN and GRACE at the same time because I quote 1st JOHN and a few other verses that speak to sin in a believer......these guys are as deceptive as they come....they cannot alleviate and or get over the truth so they attack our character and twist what we say.

 

[dcontroversal]

I know nothing about Calvinist teaching.
The truth is that Jesus died on the cross to tear the temple curtain in two so that we can access the throne of God through faith.

It was sin that seperated us from God, that is why Jesus hung on that cross.

Would be interested to know what you consider a respectable main line evangelical church.

With regards to works salvationist it comes down as to how it's taught along with ES.

I was told once that because I did not speak in tongues it was evidence I was not saved, was also told because I smoked I was going to hell as well as smelling like it.

So now we have a paradigm based on the above.

And yes I agree that it can be seen from the other side of the coin concerning ES.

I have seen the lax attitude when it comes to sin.
And to be honest I find it abhorrent to the core.
Jesus did not die so we could sin more, he died because of our sin.
We know Paul addressed this Romans.

I have only known a few who have been like this.
Talked and walked with them about this attitude.
Just to see if they needed help and healing and release from sinful habits.

If as a result they still stay on that position of I can sin all I want and still be saved then I would shake the dust of my feet.

What upsets me is that people like me and others are accused of saying it's ok to sin all we want and be saved. Yet I that is not true.

Yet what also upsets me is that people say we must work to be saved and stop sinning.
But we cannot quantify that or qualify that.
That's why Jesus died.

Yet with reference to greasy gracers we can quantify and qualify it.
If they preach we can sin all we want, do what we want then as I say it's aborrhent.

They accuse me of that....have you ever seen me say or imply that I want MY SIN and GRACE at the same time.....they are both deceivers...it is rather sickening how they skew what we say.......

 

[Chris1975]

Dude....you are openly lying about me!

OK then an opportunity to set the record straight. Please answer then my assessment bit by bit:

1) Can ongoing sin in a believers life have any impact on eternal security (Y/N)?
2) If the answer to point 1 is No (which I suspect will be your answer), then is such a person free to do anything (murder/rape, lie and steal) (Y/N)?
3) If the answer to Q2 above is "No" then what what are the maximum implications if they do such things as highlighted in Q2?
4) I asserted you say that once you believe at a single point in history you are from that point eternally secure. Is this person required to CONTINUALLY BELIEVE in Christ to obtain salvation, or are they free to stop believing and still have their salvation secure?

I suspect you won't answer these as highlighted. Because it exposes your exact doctrine.

 

[Discern]

And you know by what I have written that he is lying openly about me and my position on sin......

From what I’ve read...there is no basis for his accusations

 

[dcontroversal]

From what I’ve read...there is no basis for his accusations

AMEN............

 

[dcontroversal]

OK then an opportunity to set the record straight. Please answer then my assessment bit by bit:

1) Can ongoing sin in a believers life have any impact on eternal security (Y/N)?
2) If the answer to point 1 is No (which I suspect will be your answer), then is such a person free to do anything (murder/rape, lie and steal) (Y/N)?
3) If the answer to Q2 above is "No" then what what are the maximum implications if they do such things as highlighted in Q2?
4) I asserted you say that once you believe at a single point in history you are from that point eternally secure. Is this person required to CONTINUALLY BELIEVE in Christ to obtain salvation, or are they free to stop believing and still have their salvation secure?

I suspect you won't answer these as highlighted. Because it exposes your exact doctrine.

I have answered in your give the dog a bone thread that skews the truth to your own hyper religious false skewed views pal!