Not By Works

[Discern]

I believe we are getting closer.
To your points above:
Point 2:- Those Born of God will be found in Faith. And its a continual faith without drawing back. If you draw back from the faith, how could you possibly overcome the world. So the Born of God are always found in Faith. I used an example a few days ago about a Satanist who hears the gospel and converts to Christianity through belief in Jesus and His shed blood on the cross, and His resurrection from the dead. He lives for a few years evangelising the gospel, conducting bible studies etc. However one day his friends from the past life entice him back into compromise. One thing leads to another and he falls back into full time Satanism, renouncing Christ along the way. My question to you is this: Are you saying he was NEVER a believer? If you say that, then who in this Forum could be considered a believer, since we all claim to believe but none of us know for certain which of us might fall away in the same way as the man in this example I have cited. So no, he was a believer but drew back. There are dozens and dozens of verses dealing with this very thing. And in the end, this Satanist could not possibly be saved, or Elect.
Point 3:- Its not about a set of creeds or doctrines. Its only scriptures and the leading of the Holy Spirit. We debate by sharing scriptures with one another (quite actively !!) and hopefully Spirit led. Its the Ephesians 4 building up the church. I go purely based on bible scriptures and not a set of Acronym lead teaching progams. I believe such programs create paradigms which can be hard to dislodge.
Point 6: We are still in agreement.

The only point of difference is really your last statement and point 2 of mine. I believe there are those who can genuinely believe in Jesus Christ (He won't turn them away), however by their own lusts be led astray which can eventually, left unaddressed lead to Apostasy. These were at one stage believers but were never Elect.

Applying Election scriptures to ALL BELIEVERS will lead to issues with other scriptures as we can see on this Forum.

Chris, I have no beef with you, I understand what you are saying. I used to believe the same way. But I cannot keep myself, I know if left to myself and my own strength, I would fall away. I consider the fact that I ever believed in the first place, a miracle. And I consider the fact that a person like me continues to believe an even greater miracle. It’s what God is doing that sustains me.

I cannot take any credit. I am a Mephivosheth sitting at the Kings table, there only because of what the Son has done and the intention of the Father in His doing it, and the application of it by the Holy Slirit

 

[Discern]

Ok, thanks and sorry for jumping in.

God bless

You’re good man. I wasn’t jumping on you, I’m just long.winded. It’s my fault for causing the misunderstanding. God bless

 

[VCO]

NO, it may be to the untrained eye, that a Baby does not have much FRUIT, thereby compared to Psuedo Christian with NO ROOTS, seems the same. However, a Born Again can Tell by their FRUIT, ESPECIALLY AGAPE LOVE, and Lack of It, which the Psuedo Christian has NONE OF. No Roots into good soil, equals NO Spiritual Fruit.

Those kind of people will always be more interested in foolish debates, genealogies, quarrels, and disputes about the law, WHILE truly Born Again Believers will want to talk about Loving Him and the Brethren, even meeting their NEEDS.

My Love for the LORD, burned red hot the night I was Born Again, and I ABSOLUTELY totally Trusted Him from the moment I truly surrendered to HIM out of pure AGAPE LOVE, the first night HE SAVED ME. That AGAPE LOVE was something I NEVER EXPERIENCED BEFORE, and it was exciting to know I WAS SAVED FOR SURE, FOREVER. In case you do not know, that Spawns from GOD's LOVE that HE HAD THE HOLY SPIRIT PUT INTO OUR HEARTS [Human Spirits], and it is the a Reproduction OF THE SEED OF LOVE HE SOWED IN OUR HEARTS, TRUSTING HIM TOTALLY, Rom. 5:5.

The last Jehovah Witness I confronted at my front door, just wanted to ARGUE WITH ME, and I saw NO EVIDENCE of any Spiritual Fruit, That is very typical, of any person that has not yet been Born Again.

Matthew 7:20 (HCSB)
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.

I should explain, that I was raised in a Church from childhood on, I believed the stories about Jesus but even the demons believe that, and I sat on a pew almost every Sunday but sitting on a pew does not make you a CHRISTIAN. HOWEVER, I WAS NOT BORN AGAIN until after 3 attempts as suicide the last week of 1977, just before my 29th Birthday. I was never a REAL Christian the whole time I was just taking up space on a pew. I became a REAL Christian when I was BORN AGAIN. A very real CHANGE IN MY HEART, which I know know was the BIRTH in my Heart of my Human Spirit. The difference between Sitting on a Pew before, and After being Born Again, is NIGHT and DAY. I ABSOLUTELY KNOW the TERROR that goes through a heart, when you know if you finished pulling that trigger, YOU WILL GO TO HADES/HELL. It made me drop the pistol twice, and the second time it hit the floor hard, and I do not know why it did not go off, as the trigger was a light trigger. STILL I tried it again, by trying to arrange a FATAL motorcycle Accident for myself, and I could not make it swerve out of control. I sat up the rest of the night thinking about it and sobering up, after riding a whole mile of VERY LOOSE GRAVEL, at FULL THROTTLE. About 5:00, I realized that I cannot ride a bike like that, even SOBER, and as I fell to my knees, as wave, after wave, after wave of GUILT for my whole lifestyle washed over me. I cried like a baby with DEEP, DEEP SOBS, for a couple hours. Somewhere in the middle of it all the HOLY SPIRIT GAVE ME A PRAYER. I prayed: "LORD FORGIVE ME, LORD FORGIVE ME! If you have a purpose for my life, YOU are going to have to come into my life, and run my life. I can't do it, I am making a total mess of my of my life."

That was a TOTAL surrender to HIM, with a new Amazing LOVE FOR HIM, and I KNEW I would NEVER take it back. That is the moment I became Born Again, HE put TOTAL Trust in HIM, in my heart (human spirit). He put a hunger in my heart to understand HIS WORD, a desire to tell others, and HE guided my life from that Day ON.

Please, ANYONE WHO READS THIS: Do not try to test the LORD the way I did. HE HAD THE RIGHT to let me DIE. Because I knew the verse that says:

Matthew 4:7 (ESV)
7 Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”

Later I found this verse that says the same thing.

1 Corinthians 10:9 (ESV)
9 We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents,

Did He Use me? Absolutely, I will not go into the details now, but HE moved us from Nebraska to Northern California. HE put it on my heart to Volunteer at a new supermax Prison. Now How does a Volunteer with NO BIBLE COLLEGE EXPERIENCE, get to be a Volunteer Protestant Chaplain, who started a new Prison Ministry in a supermax Prison. I do not know, but HE KEPT OPENING DOORS AND I KEPT WALKING THROUGH THEM.

 

[Judges1318]

“God drawing”

Nope, not an issue.

“God keeping”

Not an issue by itself.
It's only an issue when used in regard to once saved always saved.

...or God electing, which are not unique to Calvinism

Right, election is not unique to Calvinism.
His twisted concept of it is.

I know plenty of Wesleyans and free willers that agree with God drawing and keeping unto salvation

...But probably not in a once saved always saved way.
If they did agree that way I think that instantly disqualifies them from being labeled Wesleyan or a free willer.

...rabidly anti Calvinist...

I can honestly say I don't recall ever talking to a person who was rabidly anti Calvinist.
Truly, the vitriol is on the Calvinist's side.
Not all Calvinists.
I'm just saying if anyone is going to be angry and dogmatic it will be the Calvinist, not the non Calvinist.
Really. It's quite disturbing.

 

[Judges1318]

Hebrews 3:6 says we are Christ’s house IF we hold fast the hope of our confidence firm to the end.

This is a conditional statement. The apodosis (we are...) is true if the protasis (if...) is true. And the apodosis is a past time event ( perfect tense)

The completed action with ongoing results (being in Christ) remains true if you hold steadfast your confidence firm to the end. Your interpretation of the verse is completely useless and impractical. What good is it to tell someone they are really saved if they believe all the way to the very end?

The only useful interpretation is the one I've given: You remain in Christ if you keep believing to the end. And it's the interpretation that fits the context of the exhortation to not be hardened to unbelief.

 

[NayborBear]

Excuse me but what you replied is unclear. Did you mean a specific bible? Because I myself use biblehub.com quite often they have most popular translations of specific verses and or passages together on the same page for comparison. I realize many words have different meanings. In King James it may say fear but another it may say respect in another it may say obey so I get a more panoramic idea of the message that is being set foreword. There are four Greek words for love that are important for Christians to understand. They are agape, phileo, storge, and eros. co; https://www.truthortradition.com/

Can't say I've ever heard "storge" love before.
Please elaborate.

 

[Hevosmies]

Amor, you can't honestly expect ANYONE to give an amen to that prayer. We aren't promised an easy life. Nor are we promised a HAPPY life. God isn't going to give you a disease just because you want Him to. He helps those who help themselves, but you seem content to wallow in this pity party pit you're in. We have NO CHOICE but to push on through this life as best we can, and that includes YOU. You are only a "lost cause" if you choose to be one. Stop making the devil happy and do something to pull yourself out of this malarkey that you're spewing..

Well said sister. I know its rough to hear but sometimes its what we NEED to hear.

Its so true. PUSH ON THROUGH this life, we can rest in eternity! Thats what I use for motivation, no matter how bad it gets in this life, IT WONT LAST FOREVER, this too shall pass.

Its 4AM and im UP, ROLL CALL! Go smash those burpees yall! But first some coffee.......

 

[Discern]

Nope, not an issue.


Not an issue by itself.
It's only an issue when used in regard to once saved always saved.


Right, election is not unique to Calvinism.
His twisted concept of it is.


...But probably not in a once saved always saved way.
If they did agree that way I think that instantly disqualifies them from being labeled Wesleyan or a free willer.



I can honestly say I don't recall ever talking to a person who was rabidly anti Calvinist.
Truly, the vitriol is on the Calvinist's side.
Not all Calvinists.
I'm just saying if anyone is going to be angry and dogmatic it will be the Calvinist, not the non Calvinist.
Really. It's quite disturbing.

Yes, there’s vitriol everywhere, with some from all sides. Not good James 3:17

 

[VCO]

I have to wonder how the snake handlers of Appalachia, take this verse and mis-translate it to where they think it does not apply to them:

1 Corinthians 10:9 (ESV)
9 We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents,


This Pastor Jamie Coots died of a Snake Bite.

 

[Whispered]

I have to wonder how the snake handlers of Appalachia, take this verse and mis-translate it to where they think it does not apply to them:

1 Corinthians 10:9 (ESV)
9 We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents,

View attachment 208950
This Pastor Jamie Coots died of a Snake Bite.

They're inspired by this text: The Book of Mark chapter 16:17–18

Could he really have been all that surprised? He refused his son to call 911 thinking God would deliver him from the poison that God outfitted timber rattlesnakes to carry.

Wild caught, these snakes are lethal for a reason. It isn't personal, it's just a rattlesnake doing what a rattlesnake can do when they feel threatened and have less than keen eyesight.
The man died foolishly and it wasn't the snakes fault. It was Mr.Coots full responsibility for his own arrogance.

 

[VCO]

Can't say I've ever heard "storge" love before.
Please elaborate.

Click on that word, as it is a Hyperlink and it will pull up the definition. But it is Normal Family Love.

 

[Whispered]

Click on that word, as it is a Hyperlink and it will pull up the definition. But it is Normal Family Love.

True. Storge is one of four Greek words for love in the scriptures.
Agapeo: Unconditional love; the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation
Phileo: Love between friends
Eros: The sense of being in love; romantic love
Storge: Love of family; Parent/child, siblings, cousins, etc. In a very close family, agape is felt as well.

 

[EleventhHour]

Yes, there’s vitriol everywhere, with some from all sides. We need more James 3:17

Not sure on cruel and bitter criticism mayb

believing in one God (as a doctrinal creed) is not sufficient to save. In fact, no doctrinal creed is sufficient to save. We are not saved by adhering to creeds, we are saved by faith, personal trust in the One True God. 🙂

James is not parroting a counter argument, he is building on his argument.

I think James knew the way of salvation.

....."but some will say....

You are funny!

 

[VCO]

Could he really have been all that surprised? He refused his son to call 911 thinking God would deliver him from the poison that God outfitted timber rattlesnakes to carry.

Wild caught, these snakes are lethal for a reason. It isn't personal, it's just a rattlesnake doing what a rattlesnake can do when they feel threatened and have less than keen eyesight.
The man died foolishly and it wasn't the snakes fault. It was Mr.Coots full responsibility for his own arrogance.

The fully believe that this verse commands them to pick up snakes to test their faith, and if a snake does bite them, the also believe Jesus will Heal them, or if he dies it was GOD's Will that he dies. VERY STRANGE RELIGIOUS CULT, with many false Translations.

Mark 16:18 (KJV)
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Most Christians fully understand that was talking about the Apostles only. And this verse is for the rest of us.

1 Corinthians 10:9 (ESV)
9 We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents,

 

[Whispered]

The fully believe that this verse commands them to pick up snakes to test their faith, and if a snake does bite them, the also believe Jesus will Heal them, or if he dies it was GOD's Will that he dies. VERY STRANGE RELIGIOUS CULT, with many false Translations.

Mark 16:18 (KJV)
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Most Christians fully understand that was talking about the Apostles only. And this verse is for the rest of us.

1 Corinthians 10:9 (ESV)
9 We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents,

My maternal side of the family are from the Tennessee mountains. And while I don't recall them ever going to church when we would visit, I can say I wouldn't turn down the opportunity to experience this type of church.
The energy there must be amazing to witness.

 

[Discern]

Not sure on cruel and bitter criticism mayb


I think James knew the way of salvation.

....."but some will say....

You are funny!

James knew that merely believing a premise (like there is one God) is not enough to save anyone.

Do you think that if a person mentally believes that Jesus existed, died, and rose again, and that He died for their sins, that makes them saved? There are millions of people who believe all that, and are as lost as demons. I believed that from childhood. That did not make me born again. It made my condemnation greater, (until I was born again)

James said, you believe in one God, well. The devil's believe and tremble. Meaning is very clear to me.

(and I hardly ever trembled...)

 

[Discern]

Not sure on cruel and bitter criticism mayb


I think James knew the way of salvation.

....."but some will say....

You are funny!

You have to read the full context. All the way to the end of the chapter, at least.

Of course James knew the way of salvation. He was probably the leader of the Jerusalem church, I think.

 

[EleventhHour]

You have to read the full context. All the way to the end of the chapter, at least I don't think I have ever heard anyone, in all my decades of study, ANYONE interpret that passage the way you do.

Cause I am special......

Stick around I have a few more tricks up my sleeve.

 

[Discern]

Cause I am special......

Stick around I have a few more tricks up my sleeve.

Very well. I appreciate your patient and friendly reply

So when does this hypothetical "counter arguer" stop speaking and James start to speaking again? That would be a vital question for your interpretation. The whole text from verse 14-26 seems to be in agreement. There does not seem to be a point/counterpoint there that I can see.

SO which words in James 2:14-26 are James and which words belong to the hypothetical person that is arguing counter to him?

 

[Discern]

Cause I am special......

Stick around I have a few more tricks up my sleeve.

BTW, I had edited my post before you replied, because I felt I was being too argumentative. Sorry I edited it while you were responding.