Western Churches. Are they becoming Worldly?

[KhedetOrthos]

First, What if you believe that "falling away", and the whole end of the "age" already took place as Jesus said it would, (as I do)

Are you a preterist?

Second, isn't that exactly what you'd be waiting for if this whole "pre-trib" (and to be fair I'm assuming this is the view you hold, if not then my comment is directed at those that do) thing happens as planned. The devil grows stronger and stronger until Jesus brings his earthly Kingdom and saves the day, right? The way I see it, in that way it the view goes completely opposite to what He told us the kingdom of God was. The kingdom of God is already here in the midst of all believers, we are not waiting for an earthly kingdom to come, His kingdom is of the spirit and will continue until ALL enemies are under His feet. This goes right into the "third".

I’m not a pretrib rapture/dispensationalist. I believe that we are in the end times, that Jesus comes back once, and that the events of Matthew 24 describe it. The devil does not “get stronger“, the falling away is a function of our lack of faith. Remember, actual demon possession is quite rare. In the overwhelming majority of cases the devil is but a doorman and we happily step through on our own accord.

How about you, are you above being deceived, you don't think popular opinion has any effect on you at all?

Am I above being deceived? I doubt it. Does popular opinion have any effect on me? Very little. I haven’t been to a movie in a few decades. I don’t have cable.

 

[Aerials1978]

Exactly, one world religion was established in the garden when the spirit of error, the father of lies as the god of this world said ."ye will not surely die"

Having put their trust in what the eyes see the temporal and the lying voice . . the glory of God departed . It will return in the new heavens and earth on the last day . When death, the letter of the law is cast into the judgment of God never to rise and condemn a whole creation.

Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
Revelation 21:2

 

[Aerials1978]

Are you a preterist?



I’m not a pretrib rapture/dispensationalist. I believe that we are in the end times, that Jesus comes back once, and that the events of Matthew 24 describe it. The devil does not “get stronger“, the falling away is a function of our lack of faith. Remember, actual demon possession is quite rare. In the overwhelming majority of cases the devil is but a doorman and we happily step through on our own accord.



Am I above being deceived? I doubt it. Does popular opinion have any effect on me? Very little. I haven’t been to a movie in a few decades. I don’t have cable.

I don’t have cable or satellite either. Nor do I watch movies or binge watch tv series. I just don’t have the desire for such things. I haven’t for some time now. It’s not that I condemn such things, it’s just I can’t see any meaningful purpose for it.

 

[Jimbone]

Are you a preterist?



I’m not a pretrib rapture/dispensationalist. I believe that we are in the end times, that Jesus comes back once, and that the events of Matthew 24 describe it. The devil does not “get stronger“, the falling away is a function of our lack of faith. Remember, actual demon possession is quite rare. In the overwhelming majority of cases the devil is but a doorman and we happily step through on our own accord.



Am I above being deceived? I doubt it. Does popular opinion have any effect on me? Very little. I haven’t been to a movie in a few decades. I don’t have cable.

I was only asking the deceived question rhetorically, and your answer is a bit surprising that you "doubt" you're deceived, and the way you follow it with, "Does popular opinion have any effect on me? Very little. I haven’t been to a movie in a few decades. I don’t have cable", Really makes me think you're not following me . I was only speaking of what's being taught in the churches here, I wasn't really talking about all the worldly stuff, we know that's deception, I'm talking about deception in the churches. This would be exactly where you would "doubt" you were deceived, right? I'm talking about deception that you're grandpa taught you, (again I'm speaking generally, not about "you" or your grandpa, just making points) that has seeped it's way so deep into the church that you are ridiculed if you don't believe it. But that age is over and truth is breaking through. The deception of "keep your religion at home privately", is being exposed. No I will proclaim His name the exact same in the sunshine or rain, on the backstreets or the Main, to preach His word I am not ashamed.

So do you believe there will be a third temple?

 

[KhedetOrthos]

I'm talking about deception that you're grandpa taught you, (again I'm speaking generally, not about "you" or your grandpa, just making points) that has seeped it's way so deep into the church that you are ridiculed if you don't believe it. But that age is over and truth is breaking through. The deception of "keep your religion at home privately", is being exposed. No I will proclaim His name the exact same in the sunshine or rain, on the backstreets or the Main, to preach His word I am not ashamed.

I never learned anything from family with regards to that. Became a a Christian after reading the Bible as a teenager. I was such a blank slate that I actually read about what different kinds of churches believed in the encyclopedia to try and figure out where to go...and after spending quite a while in one type, I recently switched.

So do you believe there will be a third temple?

I don’t know. People manage to do all sorts of things, both inside and outside of what God would have us do. If there is a third temple, I assure you that it will have zero religious significance for the new covenant has replaced the old.

 

[Aerials1978]

I was only asking the deceived question rhetorically, and your answer is a bit surprising that you "doubt" you're deceived, and the way you follow it with, "Does popular opinion have any effect on me? Very little. I haven’t been to a movie in a few decades. I don’t have cable", Really makes me think you're not following me . I was only speaking of what's being taught in the churches here, I wasn't really talking about all the worldly stuff, we know that's deception, I'm talking about deception in the churches. This would be exactly where you would "doubt" you were deceived, right? I'm talking about deception that you're grandpa taught you, (again I'm speaking generally, not about "you" or your grandpa, just making points) that has seeped it's way so deep into the church that you are ridiculed if you don't believe it. But that age is over and truth is breaking through. The deception of "keep your religion at home privately", is being exposed. No I will proclaim His name the exact same in the sunshine or rain, on the backstreets or the Main, to preach His word I am not ashamed.

So do you believe there will be a third temple?

There has to be a Third Temple as the scripture says the Beast will commit “The abomination of desecration”. I remember reading about 14 people years ago the Sanhedrin convened for the first time in nearly 2000 years. Items for Temple worship have already been created and are awaiting the return of the Levitical practices.

 

[garee]

First, What if you believe that "falling away", and the whole end of the "age" already took place as Jesus said it would, (as I do) then exactly what falling away would I be waiting for? This was my point. I'm not waiting for that, as a matter of fact all I'm waiting for is the next person He puts in front of me to testify to. I'm not waiting, see my point?

Good point .The falling away would seem to have occurred at Pentecost. As a sign promised against the unbelieving Jew . I believe Jews as Amorites and Hittites, Abram's lineage were used to represent the whole of mankind as his people in that way.
The Holy Spirit at Pentecost was bringing prophets from all the nations of the world preaching the gospel as promised in Joel. Mocking them with stammering lips a demonstration to the whole world exposing unbelief in the hearts of men from all nations .And the power of the gospel our new tongue to those who do believe.

Falling away or falling backward seems to be a common metaphor used through the bible to indicate his judgment that was violated in the garden .

In Revelation 21 in that description of the wife of Christ the church. The tribe of Dan in the book of Revelation is missing from the description of the bride. Dan, a word that means "God is my judge" is used to reveal those who do not fall away or fall back. . the bride of Christ. They fall forward. And in respect to new testament saints the apostle Judah is left out of the 12 set aside for that purpose, as a witness to the name Dan

To fall away is to crucify Christ over and over exposing him to public shame as if God could not finish it in one three day work.

Genesis 49:16-17 King James Version (KJV Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel. Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward

Above a serpent or adder is used to represent the effects of false doctrine coming from a brood of vipers representing the kings and fathers (Pharisees with Sadducees) as the oral tradition of men. That by their tradition make the word of God without effect. .The letter of the law as all things written in the law and prophets judges them, again signified as Dan, as the witnesses of God .

Judas is used to represent the same false prophecy as commandments of men.

John 18:4-6 King James Version (KJV) Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

The faithless Jews were used to represent unbelieving mankind as a warning to those who mock God as a sign against them . .At Pentecost. He brings prophecy as tongues through all the nations and they who would have nothing to do line upon line here a little and there a little (sola scriptura) which is comparing the spiritual understanding to the same, faith to faith. They who have tasted of the good things to come will not hear and believe. . they fall back or fall away .

For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Isaiah 28:10-14

This I believe is teaching us God is not served by human hands. We walk by faith. . the unseen hand of God.

 

[Dino246]

Good point .The falling away would seem to have occurred at Pentecost. As a sign promised against the unbelieving Jew . I believe Jews as Amorites and Hittites, Abram's lineage were used to represent the whole of mankind as his people in that way.
The Holy Spirit at Pentecost was bringing prophets from all the nations of the world preaching the gospel as promised in Joel. Mocking them with stammering lips a demonstration to the whole world exposing unbelief in the hearts of men from all nations .And the power of the gospel our new tongue to those who do believe.

Falling away or falling backward seems to be a common metaphor used through the bible to indicate his judgment that was violated in the garden .

In Revelation 21 in that description of the wife of Christ the church. The tribe of Dan in the book of Revelation is missing from the description of the bride. Dan, a word that means "God is my judge" is used to reveal those who do not fall away or fall back. . the bride of Christ. They fall forward. And in respect to new testament saints the apostle Judah is left out of the 12 set aside for that purpose, as a witness to the name Dan

To fall away is to crucify Christ over and over exposing him to public shame as if God could not finish it in one three day work.

Genesis 49:16-17 King James Version (KJV Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel. Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward

Above a serpent or adder is used to represent the effects of false doctrine coming from a brood of vipers representing the kings and fathers (Pharisees with Sadducees) as the oral tradition of men. That by their tradition make the word of God without effect. .The letter of the law as all things written in the law and prophets judges them, again signified as Dan, as the witnesses of God .

Judas is used to represent the same false prophecy as commandments of men.

John 18:4-6 King James Version (KJV) Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

The faithless Jews were used to represent unbelieving mankind as a warning to those who mock God as a sign against them . .At Pentecost. He brings prophecy as tongues through all the nations and they who would have nothing to do line upon line here a little and there a little (sola scriptura) which is comparing the spiritual understanding to the same, faith to faith. They who have tasted of the good things to come will not hear and believe. . they fall back or fall away .

For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Isaiah 28:10-14

This is a mixture of speculation, codswollop, and bafflegab. You have so many unrelated ideas in your post.

Here's a simple principle: where Scripture clearly states that one thing represents another, then it does. Otherwise, building doctrine on the idea that one thing represents another is foolish and dangerous.

 

[Jimbone]

There has to be a Third Temple as the scripture says the Beast will commit “The abomination of desecration”. I remember reading about 14 people years ago the Sanhedrin convened for the first time in nearly 2000 years. Items for Temple worship have already been created and are awaiting the return of the Levitical practices.

Why? Why would God do that? He's already taken that way off the earth forever. Even if men built a "3rd temple" God would never dwell in it, that age is done. It wouldn't even be His temple, how could it be desecrated? That doesn't even make logical sense before we even get into text. Can you at least agree that Gods temple has been removed from the earth forever, never to be ordered built by Him again? Salvation has been achieved, the way has been made, there is NO reason for a Holy God to start that up again right? Any temple built will be a complete counterfeit right? God will not dwell there in any capacity, right? Or do you think He will?

 

[John146]

This is a mixture of speculation, codswollop, and bafflegab. You have so many unrelated ideas in your post.

Here's a simple principle: where Scripture clearly states that one thing represents another, then it does. Otherwise, building doctrine on the idea that one thing represents another is foolish and dangerous.

To be honest, I’ve given up reading his posts. I just can’t read nor understand them.

 

[Jimbone]

I never learned anything from family with regards to that. Became a a Christian after reading the Bible as a teenager. I was such a blank slate that I actually read about what different kinds of churches believed in the encyclopedia to try and figure out where to go...and after spending quite a while in one type, I recently switched.



I don’t know. People manage to do all sorts of things, both inside and outside of what God would have us do. If there is a third temple, I assure you that it will have zero religious significance for the new covenant has replaced the old.

Oh my goodness looks like you have everything figured out, man you should have scores at your feet learning. I've never met anyone who knew so much with such assurance in every aspect in life. You need to teach your method because everyone else I've ever met in my life had some things left to learn, but you seem to be one of those with an answer for everything, and have done everything opposite of how anyone else might avoiding all pitfalls and hangups. Praise God not many are blessed this way.

Since we're on the subject and you know so much, please do tell me why God is would build another temple, and how can a temple He does not dwell in be desecrated? You said "if' in your comment, but someone that knows so much and is so well studied from a teenager should be able to tell me this no sweat right? And if there is not another temple then how can all that other stuff you're waiting for take place? Man I do not understand what you're talking about at all. I'm WAY under studied and have a LONG way before I can catch up and understand what you're talking about. Dumb it down for me and tell me exactly what you're waiting for, Jesus to come back when the world gets so bad, but maybe with a temple or not? Please explain because I'm lost. Almost like trying to walk on marshmallows.

 

[Jimbone]

This is a mixture of speculation, codswollop, and bafflegab. You have so many unrelated ideas in your post.

Here's a simple principle: where Scripture clearly states that one thing represents another, then it does. Otherwise, building doctrine on the idea that one thing represents another is foolish and dangerous.

I understood what he was writing. He was talking about the falling away being the Jews of that day, the high ranking priest and leaders that choose Caesar over Jesus and broke covenant with God, the Jews that were judged at the end of the age when God took His temple off the earth because that age was finished, just exactly like Jesus said. Holla-boo-ya!!

Then I think he explains the rest well about how these Jews were described as the man falling back off the horse because of the viper. Whether you agree with him or not I think it's unfair to describe it as having "so many unrelated ideas in your post", I don't think that's true at all. What am I missing here. What other "idea" does he even have in the post? I only see the 1, much less "so many unrelated ideas". I'm only asking because I'm just really confused here, I don't see how your comment fit's the one you were responding to.

 

[Aerials1978]

God will not delay

Why? Why would God do that? He's already taken that way off the earth forever. Even if men built a "3rd temple" God would never dwell in it, that age is done. It wouldn't even be His temple, how could it be desecrated? That doesn't even make logical sense before we even get into text. Can you at least agree that Gods temple has been removed from the earth forever, never to be ordered built by Him again? Salvation has been achieved, the way has been made, there is NO reason for a Holy God to start that up again right? Any temple built will be a complete counterfeit right? God will not dwell there in any capacity, right? Or do you think He will?[/QUOTE
God will not dwell there, must this must happen as scripture must fulfilled:

He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
2 Thessalonians 2:4

There is much information from Jewish Scholars that allude to the third temple. In fact there are construction plans in place to do so. This not coming me. Besides, who can claim what God does and does not allow?

 

[garee]

To be honest, I’ve given up reading his posts. I just can’t read nor understand them.

Sorry its the way I write.

But you can understand. Its just as it seems to clarify something seeing we have a difference in the way we hear God as well as writing skills. . Which the Bible says as a opinion(heresy) there must be between us. So that we do search the scriptures according to the loving commandment in 2 Timothy. We search as for silver or gold the hidden pearls. . searching for his understandings as an approval of faith. . . seeing he reveals the gospel mysteries. Perhaps not so much hard to understand as a hard saying?

Its not my hope or goal of my faith to offend or mock anyone. God can with his own stammering lips to do that work when defending his own. We simply put on his Armor of love. . it defend us as we defend it by keeping it on. .

Other wise one would puff oneself up as flesh and blood against flesh and blood. Surely the phrase to "fall back" or "fall away" has a spiritual meaning and application .If not then we all need to fall back and make nose of tinkling cymbals in order to maintain the fullness of our salvation. What some might call edifying oneself, selfies , snapshots needing to put a face book of fame on . LOL

1 Corinthians 4:5-7 King James Version (KJV) Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

One of those comforting humbling works of the word of God.

 

[Aerials1978]

Sorry its the way I write.

But you can understand. Its just as it seems to clarify something seeing we have a difference in the way we hear God as well as writing skills. . Which the Bible says as a opinion(heresy) there must be between us. So that we do search the scriptures according to the loving commandment in 2 Timothy. We search as for silver or gold the hidden pearls. . searching for his understandings as an approval of faith. . . seeing he reveals the gospel mysteries. Perhaps not so much hard to understand as a hard saying?

Its not my hope or goal of my faith to offend or mock anyone. God can with his own stammering lips to do that work when defending his own. We simply put on his Armor of love. . it defend us as we defend it by keeping it on. .

Other wise one would puff oneself up as flesh and blood against flesh and blood. Surely the phrase to "fall back" or "fall away" has a spiritual meaning and application .If not then we all need to fall back and make nose of tinkling cymbals in order to maintain the fullness of our salvation. What some might call edifying oneself, selfies , snapshots needing to put a face book of fame on . LOL

1 Corinthians 4:5-7 King James Version (KJV) Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

One of those comforting humbling works of the word of God.

I didn’t mind speaking with people that sometimes I can’t understand their perspective. I am respectful and really do see their point of view even if it differs from mine.

 

[John146]

Sorry its the way I write.

But you can understand. Its just as it seems to clarify something seeing we have a difference in the way we hear God as well as writing skills. . Which the Bible says as a opinion(heresy) there must be between us. So that we do search the scriptures according to the loving commandment in 2 Timothy. We search as for silver or gold the hidden pearls. . searching for his understandings as an approval of faith. . . seeing he reveals the gospel mysteries. Perhaps not so much hard to understand as a hard saying?

Its not my hope or goal of my faith to offend or mock anyone. God can with his own stammering lips to do that work when defending his own. We simply put on his Armor of love. . it defend us as we defend it by keeping it on. .

Other wise one would puff oneself up as flesh and blood against flesh and blood. Surely the phrase to "fall back" or "fall away" has a spiritual meaning and application .If not then we all need to fall back and make nose of tinkling cymbals in order to maintain the fullness of our salvation. What some might call edifying oneself, selfies , snapshots needing to put a face book of fame on . LOL

1 Corinthians 4:5-7 King James Version (KJV) Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

One of those comforting humbling works of the word of God.

Keep posting the King James Bible, that I can understand.😉

 

[Bingo]

"The time that was, has become the time that is now. And, the best place to find God's 'presence'
shall be within ones own self, nothing more, nothing less."
~Thought to ponder~

 

[Hevosmies]

Keep posting the King James Bible, that I can understand.😉

KING JIMMY is the best. Im not a KJVonly person per say, BUT I DO love me some King James Bible, best Bible, HEAD AND SHOULDERS above the rest. IMO

 

[garee]

Keep posting the King James Bible, that I can understand.😉

Thanks sorry . . . LOL

Do you understand how the King James uses the phrase "falling away" or "falling back" or backward? .What does the King James say the metaphor represents if not a person is under the judgement of God ? What are the spiritual understanding that we are to compare to the other. faith to faith. spiritual walk as two walking together. (not literal stand alone understandings )

I have a few Kink James quotes you can search out for the proper understanding. hidden from natural man

Genesis 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

1 Samuel 4:18 And it came to pass, when he made mention of the ark of God, that he fell from off the seat backward by the side of the gate, and his neck brake, and he died: for he was an old man, and heavy. And he had judged Israel forty years.

Psalm 70:2 Let them be ashamed and confounded that seek after my soul: let them be turned backward, and put to confusion, that desire my hurt.

Hebrews 6: 4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame

Isaiah 1:4Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Isaiah 44:25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;


Isaiah 59:14 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.

Jeremiah 7:24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward

Lamentations 1:8 Jerusalem hath grievously sinned; therefore she is removed: all that honoured her despise her, because they have seen her nakedness: yea, she sigheth, and turneth backward.

John 18:5-7 King James Version (KJV) They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.

Judas missing is from the description of the bride in Revelation 21 to represent saints on this side of the reformation and the tribe of Dan missing to represent the saints on the other side of the reformation. according to the King James . LOL

Why do think they are not part of the description of the bride the house of lively stones that do make up the spiritual unseen house of God, the church.?

 

[Kim82]

If you are sensear, and not just baiting your hook, I know of a church that does not pay their preachers a salary. They do not go to a school to learn to preach, and most have regular jobs, unless they are retired. They never ask for donations. They sing acapella, pray, and preach the whole word of God, with scripture quotes for one hour and do not prepare with notes beforehand. Sometimes they don't know what they are going to preach about before they stand behind the pulpit. After the preaching is over, they sing a song and during the singing of it, they walk around and hug or shake each others hand. After the dismissal prayer, they have a serve yourself meal and visit with each other while eating. Does this interest you? They are few in number, because most people want to be entertained.

This sounds like The Church of Christ