Not By Works

[Judges1318]

I used to believe the way you do now and it’s a legitimate viewpoint. Jesus acknowledges that everyone will experience doubt; since God understands this full well, I lean on the fact that His grace is sufficient, especially during our times of weakness, regardless of the magnitude of that weakness.

Yes, Jesus can handle the failure that results from any and all weakness and doubt. What he can't handle is the hard and fast decision to stop believing and trusting in his sacrifice and to never trust again, and the sin that results from that decision. No sacrifice exists to cover that. That's where the grace of God ends.

 

[mailmandan]

I'm not changing it. The Greek verb tenses and moods means the completed, past action of being made a partaker of Christ with continuing results is conditioned on IF the action of hold fast is done.

The action 'hold fast' determines if you have the results continuing of being made a partaker of Christ. But you have switched it around to mean you 'hold fast' since you have been made a partaker of Christ.

You changed it to fit your biased NOSAS agenda and I already explained the truth to you in post #117,932 and numerous other posts. If the truth is what you were looking for, then you would have already found in my numerous posts that I have previously shared with you. If accommodating your biased NOSAS agenda is the only thing you are interested in, then you won’t accept the truth no matter how many times that I explain it to you.

 

[Judges1318]

Gotta love society today.. Typing in large letters is perceived as yelling. YALL DONE LOST IT

I will continue typing with LARGE LETTERS if I please and WHAT is anyone gonna do about that HUH?

Just don't do it IN WHOLE SENTENCES! Okay?

...I mean...

OKAY?

 

[Chris1975]

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, [e]goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

>Those who stand in Faith, as described above, are to continue in God's goodness, otherwise they will be cut off.
>Bottom line is: There are those who are found in faith at some point, and some of these are cut off due to their disobedience which leads to unbelief.

 

[Chris1975]

18 This [f]charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

 

[Chris1975]

17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of [g]Christ depart from iniquity.”

>strayed concerning the faith - meaning they were at one point on the straight and narrow but then STRAYED.
>overthrow the faith of some of the church members. You either had faith or you didn't. It says that these members had faith, but now it was overthrown.
>Many commentators on this thread say sin no longer exists because you are in Christ. But v19 says let everyone who names the name of Christ DEPART from iniquity. God is not telling HIMSELF this. He is telling the CHURCH. Because its a conscious choice.

 

[EleventhHour]

Yes, Jesus can handle the failure that results from any and all weakness and doubt. What he can't handle is the hard and fast decision to stop believing and trusting in his sacrifice and to never trust again, and the sin that results from that decision. No sacrifice exists to cover that. That's where the grace of God ends.

Not hardly!!

You have no metric from scripture for this assertion... have you ever considered that ... that is a most obvious problem that cannot be addressed by the NOSAS group.

 

[Chris1975]

Not hardly!!

You have no metric from scripture for this assertion... have you ever considered that ... that is a most obvious problem that cannot be addressed by the NOSAS group.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 [c]if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

38 Now the[n] just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”

39 But we are not of those who draw back to [o]perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

 

[Judges1318]

There is nothing in the text that implies the action stops.

The verse says what will happen to the action and it's result that is already established IF they don't also have the simple action of having held fast. It will end.

Either these Hebrew believers hold fast to the end and demonstrate that they have become partakers of Christ or else they fail to hold fast and demonstrate otherwise. There is no middle ground.

How is this even remotely to be considered to be some great gospel of assurance? You don't even know today if you're believing is for real because tomorrow may show it to have been fake all along. Or is there some caveat in once saved always saved that negates it's own assertion that you know without a doubt that you are really saved without knowing if you'll believe all the way to the end?

And you say 'no middle ground', yet the Galatians and the Corinthians are on record as being real believers, and they stopped believing. But it seems, once again, once saved always saved doctrine will have a way around it's own doctrine that says whoever stops believing never really believed or was saved in the first place.

 

[Hevosmies]

Yes, Jesus can handle the failure that results from any and all weakness and doubt. What he can't handle is the hard and fast decision to stop believing and trusting in his sacrifice and to never trust again, and the sin that results from that decision. No sacrifice exists to cover that. That's where the grace of God ends.

Here is a FUN exercise:

With the premise that salvation CAN be lost, BE HONEST when reading Hebrews 10:26. It says ONE WILLFUL SIN and its GAME OVER. Pair that up with Hebrews 6:4-6 and you can never get it back. IN OTHER WORDS: 100% of Christians are LOST

So you got two honest answers left:
1. Either no one has ever entered the faith to begin with and Hebrews 10:26 dont apply
2. Everyone done lost their salvation.

I had one family member twist Hebrews 10:26 to say Its like WILLFUL meaning not if you just succumb to temptation, but if you just decide OK I will go and do it right now I dont care, no temptation no nothing.

People gotta twist Hebrews 10:26 a LITTLE BIT if they believe they can lose their salvation and YOU GUYS always quote that as a proof-text so we know you believe thats what it says

Just don't do it IN WHOLE SENTENCES! Okay?

...I mean...

OKAY?

IM A WARRIOR

 

[Judges1318]

@mailmandan , how do you know you are a partaker of Christ since you have not yet fulfilled that which once saved always saved says shows you to be a partaker of Christ?

You jumped out of the frying pan of Catholic works salvation and into the fire of once saved always saved salvation. I'm hoping you come up to the middle between the two where you are saved today if you believe today.

 

[Chris1975]

The verse says what will happen to the action and it's result that is already established IF they don't also have the simple action of having held fast. It will end.



How is this even remotely to be considered to be some great gospel of assurance? You don't even know today if you're believing is for real because tomorrow may show it to have been fake all along. Or is there some caveat in once saved always saved that negates it's own assertion that you know without a doubt that you are really saved without knowing if you'll believe all the way to the end?

And you say 'no middle ground', yet the Galatians and the Corinthians are on record as being real believers, and they stopped believing. But it seems, once again, once saved always saved doctrine will have a way around it's own doctrine that says whoever stops believing never really believed or was saved in the first place.

God hasn't changed.

Joshua 23
8 but you shall hold fast to the Lord your God, as you have done to this day. 9 For the Lord has [b]driven out from before you great and strong nations; but as for you, no one has been able to stand against you to this day. 10 One man of you shall chase a thousand, for the Lord your God is He who fights for you, as He promised you. 11 Therefore take careful heed to yourselves, that you love the Lord your God. 12 Or else, if indeed you do go back, and cling to the remnant of these nations—these that remain among you—and make marriages with them, and go in to them and they to you, 13 know for certain that the Lord your God will no longer drive out these nations from before you. But they shall be snares and traps to you, and scourges on your sides and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from this good land which the Lord your God has given you.

 

[gb9]

The difference was in both Saul's case and David's case, they were confronted by a prophet of God. David immediately owned up to it. Saul dodged and squired and tried to find any and every avenue not to accept accountability. That's the difference.

Any doctrine that doesnt fit OSAS becomes a defense of "well he/she wasnt really a believer to start off with" depite dozens of scriptures talking about believers falling away. Its a default protective mode to not accept the truth of this matter.

You didnt answer the question I posed to your original analogy: Here it is again:

OK, working with your analogy, you said both get convicted, both accept Christ, both leave thinking they are saved. Then you proceed into a sanctification role for one of the believers. So here is my question. When did this believer (pursuing sanctification) receive JUSTIFICATION? During the process? Or at the start?

If at the start, then so too should the other believer have been justified when he called upon Christ. Not so?

yes I did.

once again, one only gets justified if one truly believes. just because someone professes to believe does NOT mean that they truly believe.

 

[Chris1975]

Here is a FUN exercise:

With the premise that salvation CAN be lost, BE HONEST when reading Hebrews 10:26. It says ONE WILLFUL SIN and its GAME OVER. Pair that up with Hebrews 6:4-6 and you can never get it back. IN OTHER WORDS: 100% of Christians are LOST

So you got two honest answers left:
1. Either no one has ever entered the faith to begin with and Hebrews 10:26 dont apply
2. Everyone done lost their salvation.

I had one family member twist Hebrews 10:26 to say Its like WILLFUL meaning not if you just succumb to temptation, but if you just decide OK I will go and do it right now I dont care, no temptation no nothing.

People gotta twist Hebrews 10:26 a LITTLE BIT if they believe they can lose their salvation and YOU GUYS always quote that as a proof-text so we know you believe thats what it says


IM A WARRIOR

Willfully and continually without seeing the need for repentance. That lifestyle that you left, if you openly embrace it again, no conviction.

That's what OSAS is such a dangerous doctrine, because you empower the flesh, by subconsciously putting it again on the throne. It will not take much for the flesh to deceive you.

 

[Chris1975]

yes I did.

once again, one only gets justified if one truly believes. just because someone professes to believe does NOT mean that they truly believe.

So there is a secondary step being implied then..... (remember you said both went away believing they were saved).

 

[Hevosmies]

Willfully and continually without seeing the need for repentance. That lifestyle that you left, if you openly embrace it again, no conviction.

That's what OSAS is such a dangerous doctrine, because you empower the flesh, by subconsciously putting it again on the throne. It will not take much for the flesh to deceive you.

See what you did there? You switched it from ONE WILLFUL SIN to "continually without seeing the need for repentance"

YOU WATERED IT DOWN. Just like we do with verses similar to that, we say it means PATTERN or LIFESTYLE of sin and yall scoff at it, yet here you are doing the same.

Lets let it slide i already proved my point and I was right as I always am. NOW: WHAT HAPPENS if someone does go back to that lifestyle, they lose their salvation right? CAN THEY GET IT BACK in light of Heb 6:4-6?

All these problems come from believing in libeterian free will and God not being the author of salvation. I believe GOD SAVES so I dont gotta answer any of these how much sin is too much or any of these trick questions. God will make sure His sheep persevere

 

[Chris1975]

See what you did there? You switched it from ONE WILLFUL SIN to "continually without seeing the need for repentance"

YOU WATERED IT DOWN. Just like we do with verses similar to that, we say it means PATTERN or LIFESTYLE of sin and yall scoff at it, yet here you are doing the same.

Lets let it slide i already proved my point and I was right as I always am. NOW: WHAT HAPPENS if someone does go back to that lifestyle, they lose their salvation right? CAN THEY GET IT BACK in light of Heb 6:4-6?

All these problems come from believing in libeterian free will and God not being the author of salvation. I believe GOD SAVES so I dont gotta answer any of these how much sin is too much or any of these trick questions. God will make sure His sheep persevere

Where does it say "One willful sin"?

 

[gb9]

So there is a secondary step being implied then..... (remember you said both went away believing they were saved).

are there people who profess to believe, but do not really, truly believe?

yes or no.

 

[Chris1975]

See what you did there? You switched it from ONE WILLFUL SIN to "continually without seeing the need for repentance"

YOU WATERED IT DOWN. Just like we do with verses similar to that, we say it means PATTERN or LIFESTYLE of sin and yall scoff at it, yet here you are doing the same.

Lets let it slide i already proved my point and I was right as I always am. NOW: WHAT HAPPENS if someone does go back to that lifestyle, they lose their salvation right? CAN THEY GET IT BACK in light of Heb 6:4-6?

All these problems come from believing in libeterian free will and God not being the author of salvation. I believe GOD SAVES so I dont gotta answer any of these how much sin is too much or any of these trick questions. God will make sure His sheep persevere

This "sin willfully" is a state of mind. A modus operandi. If that your modus operandi, then you are in big trouble. Your consciences have been seared. Hard to come back from that if you think sinning is OK. For you have quietened down the voice of the Spirit, in fact blocked him off from leading you.

Only a person who comes under conviction, can in turn repent.

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes they disregard the obvious and make it far more complicated and conflate to make it fit their wrong doctrine.
Sea Perch aka PS?

Sea perch was SEA Bass a previously COC memeber.......excommunicado,......