Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

I would love to hear from other OSASSERS what falling short of the grace of God means, written to the Church, when it is only by Grace that you are saved.

Grace is unearned favor given by the mercy of god given because we are broken, or as scripture says literally bankrupt

how can you fall short of total brokenness? I mean really now!

sometimes you need to think before you post,

 

[VCO]

....And, THEN there are those who "work out there salvation with fear and trembling!"

PERISH the thought! Who would DO such a thing!

And "we're" the bad guys??

Do you even know what the expression "work out there salvation with fear and trembling!", actually MEANS ? ? ?

All it means, is: IF YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED, THEN ACT LIKE IT.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm calling those who don't believe in obedience to Gods Word tightrope walkers.

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

Your calling people to reject the cross and replace it with their works

a false gospel which Paul said should be anathema

 

[RebuildJesussChurch]

Their??? Hilarious!

I find your defense mechanism very interesting when you cannot respond.

 

[PS]

WRONG.

Those who have genuine Faith, will strive to have obediance to HIS WORD, purely out of LOVE FOR HIM.

Obediance is a PRODUCT of GOD's LOVE In US.

Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
5 This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

John 14:15 (HCSB)
15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.


That VERB keep is in the A0RIST TENSE. Which we do not have in ENGLISH, the concept of the verb is considered
without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense.
IT Does NOT mean PERFECTION, but the DIRECTION of one's LIFESTYLE. In other words, we will keep on striving to keep, tho we are not perfect.

There are four types of people. There are those who remain faithful to the end. There are those like the prodigal son. There are those who lose their faith, and there are those who have never believed.

We need to consider those scriptures that are appropriate to each situation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There are four types of people. There are those who remain faithful to the end. There are those like the prodigal son. There are those who lose their faith, and there are those who have never believed.

We need to consider those scriptures that are appropriate to each situation.

There are two types of people

sinners

sinners saved by grace.

we need to consider which one we are

 

[mailmandan]

That's how you've been interpreting Hebrews 3:6 & 14......you know, the passages where you say continued believing shows you are really saved. (Which, by the way, I hope you addressed the issue I raised with the aorist verb in that passage).

As I already previously explained in Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. The verb is uses the perfect tense (Greek gegonamen)

This is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The wording is not - "and we will become partakers of Christ/His house (future indicative) if we (future indicative) hold fast the beginning of our confidence/boast of our hope steadfast/firm to the end. It is rather - "we have been, and now are, partakers of Christ/His house (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence/boast of our hope steadfast/firm to the end, which is proof of genuine conversion.

It's only a contradiction in your doctrine because once saved always saved says the 'once for all' sanctification means you can't lose it. But the context is showing us 'once for all' means the sacrifice does not have to be repeated as it had to be under the old system. Which is the exact reason we who believe and trust in it are told not to abandon our confidence in such a great hope.

The context does not change the fact that ..we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (Hebrews 10:10) The perfect tense speaks of a past completed action (which took place at the moment of our salvation) with permanent or lasting effect (we are forever set apart in Christ). The believer's position in Christ is forever secure. Those who abandon their hope were never firmly rooted and established in their hope to begin with.

The context also does not change the fact that the perfect tense in Hebrews 10:14 speaks of the permanence of this perfection. Believers are forever "perfect" in Christ (our position). Hebrews 10:14 - For by a one offering/single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

So you have to actually physically leave to show that you never believed and have only been a fake believer.

Regardless of whether or not you physically leave, failing to continue in belief demonstrates that your belief was never firmly rooted and established from the start. There are genuine believers and there are make believers. I've heard others use the term, "fickle believers." Only genuine belief that continues is rooted in a regenerate heart.

I'm pretty certain your once saved always saved argument has been all along that it refers to the person who no longer believes, not the person who physically leaves.

No longer believes because belief was never firmly rooted and established from the start is the heart of the issue here. Physically leaving would be the effect.

 

[NayborBear]

for those of you that are not used to interacting with mr. bear, he thinks 1st Enoch should be part of the Bible and also that Christ followers have too keep the Sabbath to be saved.

just a heads up to the mindset ya'll are dealing with.

Am curious as to why you don't think the Book of Enoch, or even the Book of Jasher aren't included in the Bible. They are both mentioned.

Pretty sad actually, how a group of men, some 1500 years ago dictates to you, what should, or shouldn't be read.
What's even sadder is you allowed 'em to do it!

Psalm 119:134
Deliver me from the oppression of man: so will I keep thy precepts.

 

[mailmandan]

If you do not think you Think you are SINLESS, I Have NEWS FOR YOU. YOU ARE AS SINNER LIKE THE REST OF US..

Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness. (1 John 1:8-10)

 

[mailmandan]

Exactly........many will say have WE NOT DONE <-----the root of their lost state.......NO JESUS in their false dogma

Amen! Unbelievers/nominal Christians will say Lord, Lord, didn't WE.. but believers/genuine Christians will say, Lord, Lord, didn't YOU..

 

[mailmandan]

So lets look at this again.

14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled;

I often hear works-salvationists (including sinless perfectionists) quote Hebrews 12:14 and stress "holiness" to imply that only those who are "holy enough" will see the Lord. Such people generally view themselves as "holier than thou." The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. (Hebrews 12:14). Without justification, there is no sanctification.

Those who have been justified by faith are also sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

So those who are justified are also sanctified (1 Corinthians 6:10) and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Romans 8:30) *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense in Romans 8:30 for a future event to stress it's certainty.

In regards to Hebrews 12:15, the NIV reads ..falls short of the grace of God.. The NASB reads ..comes short of the grace of God.. and the ESV reads ..fails to obtain the grace of God.. This is not descriptive of believers, but unbelievers. Believers have been justified by faith and have access by faith into grace in which they stand. (Romans 5:1-2)

 

[mailmandan]

The Dead Church
3 “And to the [a]angel of the church in Sardis write,

‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before [b]God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. 4 [c]You have a few names [d]even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Entire sermons can be written just from this one passage.

Jesus points out the lifeless state of the church in Sardis - "..you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead." This church may have had a name of being alive, but they were spiritually lifeless. In other words, the church was filled with unsaved people going through the motions of religion who needed to wake up and repent IN CONTRAST with a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Jesus in white.

*White garments are mentioned elsewhere in Revelation. The church at Laodicea mentions white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed.(Revelation 3:18). The 24 elders wear white garments (Revelation 4:4). The martyrs waiting for God’s judgment are given white robes to wear (Revelation 6:11). The armies appearing with the Messiah also wear white and clean linen(Revelation 19:14). The great multitude of the saved in Revelation 7:14 wear robes made white in the red blood of the Lamb. The color paradox makes the point and implies that the color white stands for God’s people made spiritually pure and justified by Jesus’ blood. That means the few in Sardis who were given white robes had been made right and just before God.

In Revelation 3:5, we read - "He who overcomes I will never blot out his name from the book of life." The "overcomer" mentioned in this letter to Sardis is the Believer/Christian. Compare this with 1 John 5:4: "Everyone who is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

 

[RebuildJesussChurch]

Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness. (1 John 1:8-10)

My point was I was quoting exactly what the Bible says about those who believe in Jesus Christ. It is easy to say those who believe in Jesus Christ have eternal life, which is true. I posted several other Scriptures yesterday of other things the Bible also says about those who believe in Jesus Christ which most people posting here would never claim.

There are millions upon millions of people who claim to believe in Jesus who really don't. They claim to be righteous with His righteousness, but they aren't. Everyone sees it. The Kingdom of God is not the Magic Kingdom. "He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil." "Everyone who sins is a slave of sin and a slave doesn't have a permanent place in the household." "Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!"

You quote from 1 John where it says that if we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. We're all born miserable sinners, aren't we? John says he was writing these things to us so that we will not sin. 99.99999% of Christians say, "Impossible!!!!" You have to be able to accept everything in the book and not drop parts off or explain them away.

"He bore our sins in His body on the tree so that we would be dead to sins." Living in the Spirit we will not gratify the desires of the flesh. Our hearts have to be circumcised under the New Covenant precisely as their male organs had to be under the Old. The removal of the sinful nature as it says in Col.2? Who can believe that? And there you have half the problem with the confessing church in this country, in this century. The other half? Well, I've touched on the death part of the Gospel (since you asked me yesterday.) The other part is the resurrection part. He took away the first, where we had to keep coming back to him for forgiveness b/c the sin problem was never finally taken care of in our hearts, to establish the 2nd: "I have come to do Thy will, O God."

Why do you have a body today? So you can put it on His altar, being conformed to the image of Christ, and that purchased body would do the will of God today, not the will of mailmandan. A disciple of Jesus Christ denies his soul. Says 'no' to it. No option. We can't be soulish anymore, we have to be spiritual. Romans 8. We don't live according to the sinful nature anymore, we live according to the Spirit. If we are God's sons, like Jesus, it is God's Spirit which leads us now. Very narrow gate! OSAS very wide, very easy! But it's not true. The Gospel I'm proclaiming, which is all through the Bible, is. This is why each Gospel states why Jesus came. And each Gospel does not state so that we would be forgiven, or that we would go to heaven.

"I baptize you with water but One stands among you, the thongs of whose sandals I am unworthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." Each Gospel restates that Jesus came for the purpose of baptizing us with the Holy Spirit. Is that why Christians think he came? The Father and the Son are in Heaven right now. Genuine followers of Jesus Christ cannot follow Him, listen to His voice right now, without the Holy Spirit. They don't go their own way, do as they please, or speak their own words. Sounds like Jesus, doesn't it? And that's what "Christians" were supposed to be - little Christs. Historically, hasn't turned out that way. But, then again, Jesus didn't come to start Christianity.

Let's talk passing through the Red Sea and then receiving the pillar of fire and no one made a move for as long as that pillar of fire was stationary. There's a good Gospel lesson. How did that all start? The blood of the Lamb. Strict rules were imposed. The father did it. If anyone went out the door of the house, they died. No leaven was to be in the bread. During Passover, no leaven could be in their houses (bodies) or in their country (church) for 7 days, signifying that is how it was to be. How? By faith, they kept the Passover.

The Kingdom of God is a paradox. To really live, you have to die. If you hold on to your soul life, you will die. In this Sabbath Rest for the people of God, we quit. "Works salvationist?" Insane. We are crucified with Him. We no longer live. But the life we now live in the body we live by the faith of the Son of God. He did nothing on His own initiative. Abiding in Him we must walk as He walked. The Gospel of the Kingdom is simple. It is a change of government. Out from under Satan, Jesus become our King. We don't do as we see fit today because Jesus is our King. When the pillar of fire moves, we move. Being close to His rod and His staff, the wolves have to stay at bay. Seeking first His Kingdom and His righteousness like this, we don't have to go after material things like the world. He provides. Righteousness results in peace. People feel it when they enter our home.

The righteous live by faith. Christ is all. "Whatever we do, whether in word or deed, we do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ." That's what faith does. It's simple. But its a difficult Way. We are heaven's ambassadors in a foreign land. Glory to God, Jesus Christ is Lord today.

 

[Judges1318]

If thats the case why dont translators put that in the text to convey the idea and meaning behind it?

If what you're saying is true here it REALLY does some damage to the so called "word for word" translation idea and I will start preferring the other translations, IF ONLY I knew to check this from somewhere. You got any place where I could check this in " the greek "?

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/heb/3/1/t_conc_1136014

Click on the link for Hebrews 3:14, and in the right side of the box containing 'we hold' click on the PARSE button. A window will pop up and there you will see that it's a verb. And you can see what tense and mood and voice, etc. it's in. You can click on each of those to learn more about them.

That link is very helpful for information about the Greek tenses, but follow this link to an explanation of the Greek tenses that is excellent for those of us who, me included, wouldn't know a Perfect tense from a Present tense in our own language if it sat next to us on the bus! Let alone in the Greek language.

https://www.ezraproject.com/greek-tenses-explained/

 

[Judges1318]

Third class condition. Meaning that the future condition of holding fast is “more probable”, but contingent. I would say contingent on whether a person has been made a partaker, as the word “if” seems to indicate

If that were true, Hebrews 3:14 would read like this:

We hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end, if we are made partakers of Christ. (incorrect paraphrase)

And that is how once saved always saved incorrectly sees it. But as it is, it actually reads like this:

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end" - KJV

Having been made a partaker of Christ is contingent on the stedfast confidence you started out with.
And so the passage is saying, don't turn away from the stedfast confidence that made you a partaker of Christ!

Hebrews 3:12-19 KJV
12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

15While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

16For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

 

[Melach]

pray for Finland. until now we always had people come sing christmas songs in hospitals and christmas celebrations in schools with songs about Jesus and also when i was in cshool we went to church as well that went away shortly after me but then now not even hymns can be sung.

just to cater to you know who they do this. no backbone

 

[Judges1318]

I suspect you would do the same to Jesus regarding His proclamation that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

The question is not whether 'everlasting life' is really everlasting.
The question between now and the Judgment is if you're going to remain in the life that is everlasting.
And you remain in the life that is everlasting by continuing to hold fast the confidence you began in.

 

[Judges1318]

ooh yeah it may continue or it may not or any of this. AND IMA BE HONEST WITH YOU, I dont even know what subjunctive means, how about that?

I don't either.
That's why the link I gave you is so useful.

 

[Judges1318]

Since when is trusting Jesus with all our being a violation of God’s Word?

When what you are trusting in is something that is not true about Jesus.

 

[Chris1975]

If that were true, Hebrews 3:14 would read like this:

We hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end, if we are made partakers of Christ. (incorrect paraphrase)

And that is how once saved always saved incorrectly sees it. But as it is, it actually reads like this:

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end" - KJV

Having been made a partaker of Christ is contingent on the stedfast confidence you started out with.
And so the passage is saying, don't turn away from the stedfast confidence that made you a partaker of Christ!

Hebrews 3:12-19 KJV
12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

15While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

16For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

NKJV says it slightly differently: 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

But the bottom line is Hebrews 3v12-14 says it as clear as daylight. Anybody twisting this does so at their own peril.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but [b]exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,