Describe OSAS in terms of this passage.....

[Chris1975]

Jesus does not distinguish between the type of faith of Israel, and that of the Church.

Read Hebrews 3 and 4

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. 4 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, [a]not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

So in light of the above passage, I ask you the question again: So when Jesus says on His return to earth (Luke 18v8), will he even find faith, is he blaming himself?

 

[Guojing]

So in light of the above passage, I ask you the question again: So when Jesus says on His return to earth (Luke 18v8), will he even find faith, is he blaming himself?

That is your particular interpretation.

To me, by the time he reached the middle of his 3 year ministry to the Jews, the Jewish nation was not accepting the good news he was preaching to them, that their promised Kingdom of Heaven was at hand.

I can agree with you they lack faith in him, but that is the problem of free will that God gave us when he created us.

 

[Guojing]

Jesus does not distinguish between the type of faith of Israel, and that of the Church.

Read Hebrews 3 and 4

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. 4 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, [a]not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

True, all must come in faith. That does not mean he was reaching out to both during his time in the 4 Gospels. Romans 15:8.

We Gentiles had to wait until the Jewish nation rejected Jesus, then we get a chance, thru Paul.

 

[Chris1975]

True, all must come in faith. That does not mean he was reaching out to both during his time in the 4 Gospels. Romans 15:8.

We Gentiles had to wait until the Jewish nation rejected Jesus, then we get a chance, thru Paul.

But it wasn't originally through Paul. It was Peter to Cornelius and his household ....

 

[Guojing]

But it wasn't originally through Paul. It was Peter to Cornelius and his household ....

Peter was the first to preach to Cornelius, true. But he was not given the revelations of the mysteries that the ascended Christ revealed to Paul.

I believe the Holy Spirit arranged Peter for that one off incident, so that the latter could defend Paul's revelations in Acts 15.

 

[dcontroversal]

You lack an understanding of the difference between justification and sanctification. You seem to be mixing them up.

Not hardly pal........and as per your other post....one that peddles the loss of salvation can teach me nothing.....one must be saved to grasp the word of God to begin with......what you cannot grasp is the dual application of sanctification.....but we already know that as per the works thread........

 

[dcontroversal]

You are actually saved because of the faith OF Jesus, not your faith in Jesus.

Another truth that the salvation losers cannot grasp.....

Jesus gifts faith
Jesus begins faith in us
Jesus finishes faith in us
Jesus completes the work of faith in us

Unless one is a salvation loser...then they MUST help their JEEZUS because according to them, HE does not do the 4 listed above....

 

[crossnote]

Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

Pretty clear 2 me. We don't forgive others, God won't forgive us. Regardless......

Ok, you have turned forgiveness to an act of obedience under the Law. I am glad Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law.
I forgive as a result of the new nature that dwells within me. It is now my nature to forgive whereas before it wasn't. That is the difference between the two dispensations. Christ fulfilled the law in our stead.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

But it wasn't originally through Paul. It was Peter to Cornelius and his household ....

Well, but Paul was tasked with unfolding the doctrine pertaining specifically to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)--i.e. all those saved "in this present age [singular]"].


I appreciate C H Mackintosh's quote (note, it was in the context of a specific thing he was speaking to, but that has some broader application, which I believe "fits" here, too, as I see it):

[quoting an excerpt of it]

"[...] yet not a syllable about the real position of the Church--its calling, its standing, its hopes, its privileges!

"And not a word about Israel's future! A complete ignoring, or at best a thorough alienation, of the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David! The whole body of prophetic teaching subjected to a system of spiritualizing, falsely so called, whereby Israel is robbed of its proper portion, and Christians dragged down to an earthly level [...]"



[one of the reasons the Misslers came to the faulty conclusion of (their agreeing with) "the Millennial Exclusion Theory" (that any member of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" may be "excluded" from the Millennial Kingdom), in their latest[?] book, is because of their not distinguishing Israel's mail from the Church's mail, so to speak, aka failing to be "correctly apportioning the word of truth" as we are called to do; like the first line of that quote above speaks to, in particular--at least in some measure, or to one degree or another... a wading of knee-or-waist-deep into "the blender," of sorts. ]

 

[Ahwatukee]

You are actually saved because of the faith OF Jesus, not your faith in Jesus.

I disagree. We are saved by our faith in Jesus as the One who provided salvation by the shedding of His blood. Your response doesn't change the fact that we must remain in faith from beginning to end. Please go back and read the scriptures that I supplied, for they speak for themselves. As it is written: If you confess with your both that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[Ahwatukee]

As I have stated to you in the first post, Jesus was under the Covenant of the Law during the 4 Gospels. He magnified the Law of Moses to its true intent.

If you are following his words then, you are following the amplified Law of Moses.

You wisely quoted Paul, who was the apostle to the Gentiles. Paul received new revelations from the ascended Christ himself to minister to us, non-Jews. Don't anticipate revelation and use them in the time of the 4 Gospels. They did not exist during that time.

One of Jesus' purpose, was to meet the righteous requirements of the law, which human being could not and cannot do. Jesus freed us from the curse of the law. The law itself is holy and righteous, but it puts us to death because we meet its requirements.

"Therefore let it be known to you, brothers, that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through Him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses."

"The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!"

All who believe in Christ have been freed from the law.

 

[Guojing]

I disagree. We are saved by our faith in Jesus as the One who provided salvation by the shedding of His blood. Your response doesn't change the fact that we must remain in faith from beginning to end. Please go back and read the scriptures that I supplied, for they speak for themselves. As it is written: If you confess with your both that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

How does one not remain in faith in Jesus to the end, in your view?

 

[Guojing]

One of Jesus' purpose, was to meet the righteous requirements of the law, which human being could not and cannot do. Jesus freed us from the curse of the law. The law itself is holy and righteous, but it puts us to death because we meet its requirements.

"Therefore let it be known to you, brothers, that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through Him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses."

"The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!"

All who believe in Christ have been freed from the law.

Yes, so why do you think people like the OP are trying to go back to the Law of Moses there? They don't recognize that the grace covenant did not begin with Jesus's birth?

 

[John146]

Personally I learn a lot of new things every time from all these exchanges, on how others can form all kinds of doctrine.

That one by Adstar claiming that Peter was not a believer of Jesus, until post resurrection, was a new doctrine I have yet to encounter until now.

Peter believed Jesus was the Savior of Israel from it’s enemies, the promised King of the seed of David, but the cross was hid from him.

 

[Guojing]

Peter believed Jesus was the Savior of Israel from it’s enemies, the promised King of the seed of David, but the cross was hid from him.

Yep, since he does not acknowledge the gospel of the kingdom as distinct from the gospel of grace, I can understand why he concluded in that manner.

 

[Grandpa]

There is a MAJOR logical disconnect in the minds of people who think that Salvation can be lost.

Salvation is given as a Gift of God. It is not given because people have obeyed the law or because they are generally "good".


SO once this gift is given, and not from works, how can lack of works cause it to be taken away?



This should be abundantly obvious, but since God is the Author and Finisher of our Salvation, shouldn't it be clear that God provides for ALL of the "requirements" of Salvation?

And if you don't think so doesn't that make you an un-believer and therefore in danger?

DO you think that God will save someone and then forget to give them the attributes that will cause them to continue in their Salvation?


The only time that loss of salvation comes up is when someone INCORRECTLY interprets a parable or scripture and SIMULTANEOUSLY doesn't understand what Salvation is and Who it comes from.

 

[Chris1975]

Peter believed Jesus was the Savior of Israel from it’s enemies, the promised King of the seed of David, but the cross was hid from him.

Starting to wonder in you guys have actually even read the bible

Matthew 16
14 So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not [a]prevail against it.

 

[Robo36]

What is OSAS?

 

[John146]

Starting to wonder in you guys have actually even read the bible

Matthew 16
14 So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not [a]prevail against it.

But what does that mean? Did Peter really understand? One thing is for sure, Peter did not know about the cross and Jesus dying for sin.

Read Luke 1-2 and see what Israel was really looking forward to.

 

[Grandpa]

Matthew 18
21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

• So let’s try get everybody on the same page. Can we all agree that Peter is a believer?
• Can we agree that Peter is included in the Kingdom of God (because he is a believer)
• Can we all agree that what Jesus answers next, as well as in the parable that follows, is the Lord’s response to a question by a believer, as to how often he (Peter) should forgive?
• Jesus answers him and says seventy times seven. So basically unending. Continue to forgive.

Assuming we are on the same page up to this point, let’s go further and into the parable that follows.

• We have a King and a Kingdom. This can be seen in parable terms as Jesus and His Kingdom
• We have a subject of the kingdom (a servant) who owed the king a huge debt (v23). In parable terms we as his subjects had a huge debt (sin)
• The subject pleaded for the Kings mercy (prayer, repentance, faith) (v26)
• The loving King has mercy and compassion, and wiped clean the debt (v27). In parable terms this is the Lord forgiving our sins. This is included in the Lord’s Grace.
• Can we agree up to this point that the only those who have come to Christ, and pleaded for mercy have received the Lords grace, and the forgiveness of sins. I am not aware of the unbelievers sin being washed clean, only the believers sin. It’s no use saying this servant is “not really” a servant or subject of the king. Because he truly has had his debt wiped clean.
• In parable terms, the servant is already in the kingdom, and the servant has had his sins washed clean.

So far so good. Let’s not forget that Jesus is still answering Peter’s question (Peter being a servant of the King in the kingdom)

• Now we see that same servant whose debt was cleared, go out and demand that another fellowservant pay him an even smaller amount owed to him, and when he could not, was thrown into prison. In parable terms, this is exactly the same as a Christian who has had such great sins forgiven by the Lord, but yet unwilling to extend the same mercy, forgiveness and grace to a fellow servant.
• And we see the end result of what that got this servant. Once the King hear about what happened, he REINSTATED the debt that was due on the first servant. What was forgiven, WAS NO LONGER FORGIVEN.
• And we end off with the last verse, verse 35, which states the following: 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

So lets bring this back to OSAS doctrine, and whether this holds water. We can see from the above that this entire answer is in in direct relation to the question of a believer (Peter). And verse 35 is ALSO directed to Peter specifically, as well as all believers generally. Could Peter’s sins also be re-imputed to him if he, after having received forgiveness, had not the graces to extend this to his fellow man?
I bring back the original questions.

• Was Peter a believer? Yes.
• Is this parable applicable to Peter, as well as others? Yes.
• Should Peter forgive others? Yes
• What happens to Peter should he refuse to forgive (remember he is a believer)?
• Should you perhaps reconsider the OSAS doctrine?

This is not about Salvation.

This is about works of the law.

You sacrifice your lamb, ask for forgiveness and your are forgiven. Then, when you sin again, you are declared guilty again and the process starts all over.

So, in order to be Perfect according to the law, you would have to sacrifice your lamb, be forgiven and then walk perfectly afterward.

Then you would be OWED entrance into the Kingdom of God.


Salvation doesn't work that way. In Salvation, the Lamb is given, Forgiveness is given, and entrance into the Kingdom of God is given, all as gifts of God.