Not By Works

[EleventhHour]

Correct . Continuance in the faith is not a work. But we can put ourselves under a works Gospel by adding works to faith. We do not stay justified by doing things, but we grow, are established, become fruitful, are kept from falling, and our joy is made full by the blessed gifts God gives that accompany salvation.

It is tragic when we fail to receive ALL that God desires for us

It is a work.....if it is connected to salvation.

And what of those are regenerated but fail because of life's woes......are you comfortable claiming they were never saved to begin with?

And still mindful of a response to Hebrews 3:16....it is coming....definitely does not support the Calvinist doctrine of perserverance

 

[EleventhHour]

Correct . Continuance in the faith is not a work. But we can put ourselves under a works Gospel by adding works to faith. We do not stay justified by doing things, but we grow, are established, become fruitful, are kept from falling, and our joy is made full by the blessed gifts God gives that accompany salvation.

It is tragic when we fail to receive ALL that God desires for us

And secondly we are not always kept from falling and I know this for a fact...my own life and scripture.

1 Cor 10:12

Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest his falls.
Paul constantly warns ...why because it is possible.

 

[Judges1318]

Believing is not a work of the works gospel, just the opposite. To make continuing to believe a self accomplished burden border lines dangerously close to "type 2 works salvation."

Only in your mind. Because you come from a church that, if I'm not mistaken, literally define 'faith' and 'works' as being the same thing. So I understand your resistance to thinking 'believing' can only be a work of self righteousness in any and all doctrines that are not once saved always saved. You'll have to get it out of your head that all people who do not subscribe to once saved always saved doctrine equate faith and works as if they are the exact same thing, because I surely don't equate them.

You'll learn tons more if you 'listen' to what people who don't agree with your doctrines actually believe and not just automatically 'hear' what you think they are saying and believing . Doing that propelled my knowledge of the truth forward, oh, about 100 light years, and so I did not remain in the stunted confines of my own 'authorized' doctrinal constructs where arrogance and close-mindedness and angry zealotry thrive. I've never seen more of that in people than I have in the once saved always saved denominations. I'm not suggesting you are that, but I will say you are probably influenced by those traits within your group.

 

[Discern]

It is a work.....if it is connected to salvation.

And what of those are regenerated but fail because of life's woes......are you comfortable claiming they were never saved to begin with?

And still mindful of a response to Hebrews 3:16....it is coming....definitely does not support the Calvinist doctrine of perserverance

Continuing in faith is not trusting in your ability to be steadfast, to hold on. It is trusting in the ability of Jesus to hold on to you. Paraphrase of Jacob Prasch.

Besides this, you either did not read the story I posted earlier about the man who wrote tortured for Christ, or you did not understand my intent for posting it

And no one ever said anything about people who fail or a Heb 3:16. You are reading things in that have not been promoted

 

[Judges1318]

Turning continuing to trust in Christ into a difficult burden that will only happen if we accomplish X,Y & Z is flirting with "type 2 works salvation."

Which I'm not doing, so we don't need to discuss that between us.
In general, faith precedes and motivates works.

 

[Discern]

And secondly we are not always kept from falling and I know this for a fact...my own life and scripture.

1 Cor 10:12

Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest his falls.
Paul constantly warns ...why because it is possible.

I know it too. You must have missed my earlier replies to eternally grateful.

I fell as hard just about as hard as anyone could fall. But Jesus picked me up. Again and again

Besides, I never said we are always kept from falling. I said HE Is able to keep us from falling. Big difference.

 

[Discern]

And secondly we are not always kept from falling and I know this for a fact...my own life and scripture.

1 Cor 10:12

Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest his falls.
Paul constantly warns ...why because it is possible.

So who said anything otherwise?

And in your earlier post. What about Heb 3:16? What was your point?

 

[mailmandan]

Only in your mind. Because you come from a church that, if I'm not mistaken, literally define 'faith' and 'works' as being the same thing.

You must be confusing me with someone else. Faith is faith and works are works. I don't believe that they are the same thing. People who teach salvation by works usually end up trying to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith and end up not making a clear distinction between faith and works.

So I understand your resistance to thinking 'believing' can only be a work of self righteousness in any and all doctrines that are not once saved always saved.

I don't believe that believing is a work of self righteousness. Through believing, we are trusting in "Another's works - Christ's finished work of redemption." Jesus Christ receives all the glory and honor.

You'll have to get it out of your head that all people who do not subscribe to once saved always saved doctrine equate faith and works as if they are the exact same thing, because I surely don't equate them.

I would not say that ALL who subscribe to OSAS equate faith and works as if they are the exact same thing, but I've heard numerous people in various false religions and cults who teach salvation by works basically say they are the same thing. Here is one example below from statement made by a Roman Catholic:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

*Notice how this Roman Catholic said that faith INCLUDES this list of works above.

You'll learn tons more if you 'listen' to what people who don't agree with your doctrines actually believe and not just automatically 'hear' what you think they are saying and believing.

I find this ironic. You keep mistakenly stating that I believe 'faith and works' are the 'same thing,' even after I clearly stated more than once that I don't believe it.

Doing that propelled my knowledge of the truth forward, oh, about 100 light years, and so I did not remain in the stunted confines of my own 'authorized' doctrinal constructs.

You sound like you are stuck in the confines of your own biased doctrinal constructs. As for me, I grew up in the Roman Catholic church and my wife grew up in the RLDS (similar to LDS) church and after becoming a believer, I've had several discussions with Roman Catholics and Mormons. I have also been a member of multiple Christian forums since 2011, so I have heard numerous arguments from multiple people that promote works salvation and NOSAS. This is not my first rodeo.

 

[Judges1318]

Continuing in faith is not trusting in your ability to be steadfast, to hold on. It is trusting in the ability of Jesus to hold on to you.

And, I'm pretty sure that's not a works gospel.

It is his ability to keep us upon which the Bible exhorts us to not abandon so great a Ministry that can do that. That's what Hebrews is all about--don't abandon that which will never let you down.

I know this is probably where you deviate from me, but you won't make it if you reject and don't depend on the ability of Christ and his Sacrifice to keep you. He keeps us, if we keep him.

"you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life." - Jude 1:20-21

 

[mailmandan]

Which I'm not doing, so we don't need to discuss that between us.
In general, faith precedes and motivates works.

Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith, but not the essence of faith and also not the means by which we obtain salvation.

 

[Discern]

Only in your mind. Because you come from a church that, if I'm not mistaken, literally define 'faith' and 'works' as being the same thing. So I understand your resistance to thinking 'believing' can only be a work of self righteousness in any and all doctrines that are not once saved always saved. You'll have to get it out of your head that all people who do not subscribe to once saved always saved doctrine equate faith and works as if they are the exact same thing, because I surely don't equate them.

You'll learn tons more if you 'listen' to what people who don't agree with your doctrines actually believe and not just automatically 'hear' what you think they are saying and believing . Doing that propelled my knowledge of the truth forward, oh, about 100 light years, and so I did not remain in the stunted confines of my own 'authorized' doctrinal constructs where arrogance and close-mindedness and angry zealotry thrive. I've never seen more of that in people than I have in the once saved always saved denominations. I'm not suggesting you are that, but I will say you are probably influenced by those traits within your group.

I highly doubt, almost to the point of certainty, that Mailmandan does not come from a church that believes faith and works are the same thing.

 

[Discern]

And, I'm pretty sure that's not a works gospel.

It is his ability to keep us upon which the Bible exhorts us to not abandon so great a Ministry that can do that. That's what Hebrews is all about--don't abandon that which will never let you down.

I know this is probably where you deviate from me, but you won't make it if you reject and don't depend on the ability of Christ and his Sacrifice to keep you. He keeps us, if we keep him.

"you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life." - Jude 1:20-21

The truth found in John 6:67-68 is one of the things that keeps me from even contemplating departing from Jesus 🙂

 

[Discern]

Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith, but not the essence of faith and also not the means by which we obtain salvation.

If you see sawdust on the floor, it’s evident that someone’s been cutting wood. 🙂

 

[mailmandan]

The truth found in John 6:67-68 is one of the things that keeps me from even contemplating departing from Jesus 🙂

Amen! Departing from Jesus Christ is unfathomable to me!

John 6:67 - Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

*Notice who did not depart (the 11 remaining disciples) and who departed (Judas Iscariot who is a devil!) Jesus knows the hearts of everyone, even if they look like the real deal to others. There is no fooling Jesus. John 6:64 - But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

 

[Judges1318]

You must be confusing me with someone else. Faith is faith and works are works. I don't believe that they are the same thing.

Slow down, and if you're being defensive, don't be, so you can hear what I'm saying............please.

I did not say you believe that. I know that you are firmly against that. And I suspect you are firmly against it, as you should be, because that is what the Catholic Church you came from teaches (pretty sure, anyway). If I'm not mistaken, they equate faith and works as if their definitions can be interchanged. I suspect that's why you can only hear 'works' when I say we must persevere in 'faith' to remain in salvation (as opposed to what you say--that we persevere because we are saved).

So, that's what I'm getting at. Don't automatically think I also equate 'works' and 'faith' as if they are identical entities just because I do not subscribe to once saved always saved theology. The Catholics are not the only non once saved always people out here. Just as I have to be careful to not lump all people with their many variations of once saved always saved together, so you should be careful to not lump me in with the Catholics who don't believe in once saved always saved. I subscribe to what the early church fathers before the Catholic church existed believed about this subject. And they were not once saved always saved. Trust me on that. They firmly resisted the doctrine.

 

[Judges1318]

The truth found in John 6:67-68 is one of the things that keeps me from even contemplating departing from Jesus 🙂

It's good that Word keeps you from thinking about departing. But why was Jesus' Word not there that way for the Galatians when they departed? And the Corinthians....and the Hebrew church?

We have to be careful not to project our experiences onto others and form doctrine solely from our own experience.

 

[Judges1318]

If you see sawdust on the floor, it’s evident that someone’s been cutting wood. 🙂

...or you have termites.

 

[Judges1318]

I highly doubt, almost to the point of certainty, that Mailmandan does not come from a church that believes faith and works are the same thing.

He's ex Catholic (right, mmd?)
I have talked to them, and if I understood them correctly they believe your works are literally your faith.

 

[Discern]

It's good that Word keeps you from thinking about departing. But why was Jesus' Word not there that way for the Galatians when they departed? And the Corinthians....and the Hebrew church?

We have to be careful not to project our experiences onto others and form doctrine solely from our own experience.

But how do you know the Word did not bring them back?

It all goes back to what Jesus said, and John too. Whoever is of God hears Gods words

The intent of Hebrews, letters to Corinthians, and Galatians etc, was to correct erring Christians. And I believe a mark of one who is of God is hearing Gods Word.

This is a major emphasis of the Gospel of John and the First Epistle of John

 

[Judges1318]

Don't forget, I was raised in the Roman Catholic church and they relentlessly attacked the OSAS doctrine.

BINGO!