Describe OSAS in terms of this passage.....

[mailmandan]

So lets bring this back to OSAS doctrine, and whether this holds water. We can see from the above that this entire answer is in in direct relation to the question of a believer (Peter). And verse 35 is ALSO directed to Peter specifically, as well as all believers generally. Could Peter’s sins also be re-imputed to him if he, after having received forgiveness, had not the graces to extend this to his fellow man?
I bring back the original questions.

• Was Peter a believer? Yes.
• Is this parable applicable to Peter, as well as others? Yes.
• Should Peter forgive others? Yes
• What happens to Peter should he refuse to forgive (remember he is a believer)?
• Should you perhaps reconsider the OSAS doctrine?

The picture illustrates God's total forgiveness when dealing with our sins at the cross. Our debt has been paid in full by Jesus. In Matthew 18:28, where the same servant is unwilling to forgive his fellow servant such a small debt of a hundred denarii is presented as a repulsive hypothetical situation. As unbelievable as this action would be, that is how unbelievable it would be for a genuine born again Christian, who has been forgiven such a huge debt, to be unforgiving of others with such a small debt. Notice that this "unforgiving servant" is called a "wicked" servant because no genuine born again Christian would have such an unforgiving heart. A Christian’s forgiveness of others is based on an understanding that we have been forgiven by God. Jesus warned that God cannot forgive us if we do not have humble and repentant hearts, which reveals the condition of our hearts by the way we treat others. Hearts that are humble and have received God’s grace forgive others from a heart that is saved, but proud and vengeful hearts which do not forgive in such small matters reveal a heart that is unsaved and does not receive God's forgiveness.

Those who are unforgiving from the heart in such small matters show they are unfit to receive God’s forgiveness. Failure to forgive in such a small matter shows that this person has not fully embraced God’s grace and forgiveness, hence the term, "wicked servant," which is not descriptive of a genuine believer. The fact that this person is called a "servant" does not necessarily mean they were saved. The children of Israel were referred to as "the Lord’s servants," but they were not all saved. In Leviticus 25:55, we read - For the children of Israel are servants to Me; they are My servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God. In Isaiah 43:10, we read - You are my witnesses, says the LORD, my servant, whom I have chosen.. Obviously, Peter did not have an unforgiving heart, which demonstrates he was a true believer, so there is nothing to reconsider about the OSAS doctrine. The real question is, "are we truly saved to begin with." If we are, then we will demonstrate it by our actions.

 

[dodgingstones]

Believeth.. not believer auto correct does not like King James english

 

[TLC209]

Matthew 16: KJV
21 "¶ From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. {22} Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. {23} But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men."

If Peter was a believer in the Atonement that the LORD Jesus would secure by His death on the cross Peter would never have reacted like this.. Rebuking Jesus and telling Him that he would not be killed.. Peter would have accepted this statement of Jesus, knowing it was the Atoning sacrifice of Jesus that would see him saved..

Lets look at the reaction of the 11 apostles when the woman came back from the tomb to tell them that Jesus had risen from the dead..

Luke 24: KJV
9 "And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. {10} It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. {11} And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not."

So if Peter and the other Apostles believed Jesus when he said He would rise again from the dead, Why did they disbelieve the report of the woman that Jesus was risen?

So no Peter was not a Christian until he understood and had accepted the Way of Salvation Jesus had provided to Peter on the cross.. Before he came to that knowledge He did not understand the Way of salvation..

Excellent post!! Id like to borrow it if I may...

The foundation of "gracers" and "saved" doctrine goes as follows:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Hence Peter said this:

Matthew 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

We see that Peter believed Jesus is the Son of God. This is what all "gracers" and "saved doctrine" believers believe. But as you have stated Peter was not a Christian on this fact alone UNTIL HE RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT! At pentecost! You are correct. The first installment is the Holy Spirit as promised by God. And without being born again and recieveing the Holy Spirit one cannot enter the Kingdom of God. Look at the following:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So for those who think belief is enough, as AdStar has asserted in his post it was not enough for Peter. Take the following passage to see belief was only the start, receiving the Holy Spirit is another event apart from believing. Like it happened in pentecost for Peter and others:

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

 

[TLC209]

Anti-socials have tattoos.
But not all who have tattoos are anti-social.

In the same way:
All who are saved are believers.
But not all who believe are saved.

[Food for thought]

 

[Adstar]

Excellent post!! Id like to borrow it if I may...

Use anything you wish.. It's not really mine anyway.. Most of it is His Word..

And if i am correct, which i believe i am, what i have written is from the Holy Spirit..

 

[Chris1975]

Excellent post!! Id like to borrow it if I may...

The foundation of "gracers" and "saved" doctrine goes as follows:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Hence Peter said this:

Matthew 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

We see that Peter believed Jesus is the Son of God. This is what all "gracers" and "saved doctrine" believers believe. But as you have stated Peter was not a Christian on this fact alone UNTIL HE RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT! At pentecost! You are correct. The first installment is the Holy Spirit as promised by God. And without being born again and recieveing the Holy Spirit one cannot enter the Kingdom of God. Look at the following:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So for those who think belief is enough, as AdStar has asserted in his post it was not enough for Peter. Take the following passage to see belief was only the start, receiving the Holy Spirit is another event apart from believing. Like it happened in pentecost for Peter and others:

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

I would respectfully disagree that its belief + Holy Spirit, as we see more than enough evidence of believers being saved without first receiving the Holy Spirit.
Abraham, Isaac Jacob, Lazarus who died in poverty, the Thief on the Cross with Jesus, The resurrected saints during Jesus' earthly 40 day walk after the cross, etc, etc.

When we say that so and so was a Christian or Not a Christian, it was only later in the book of Acts that people were first called Christians. So its not those who are called Christian who qualify, but rather belief in Jesus Christ.

The role of the Holy Spirit is to empower believers with a nature of God's grace that allows them to go forth and literally change the world for Christ Jesus. God in us. The hope of glory.

Now where does some possible confusion arise? We are born again when we believe in Jesus Christ. "Our" spirit comes alive within us, and is NOT to be confused with Baptism in the Holy Spirit. The disciples were already born again (as was Peter in your quoted verse above). The Baptism in the Holy Spirit came on Pentecost. This is when we are filled with the Holy Spirit. So it is worthwhile making this distinction otherwise things will get very confusing rather quickly.

With respect.

 

[dodgingstones]

IMO

Salvation comes on believeth...

Sanctification comes on the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.

That's why Paul taught of the 2 levels of believers.

New [carnal] believers

Spiritual [sanctified/Holy Ghost filled] believers

Both are saved... repent...believe... born again.

The New believer is the one in danger of "falling away" as both Paul and Christ spoke of, because they do not yet have the Holy Spirit.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

26 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.

I have emphasised additional red letters for the red letter words. In case anybody misses this scripture.

John 16 [just before His death on the Cross] -

12 I have yet many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them now. 13 But when He the, Spirit of truth, shall come, He will guide you into all the truth. For He will not speak from Himself, but whatever He may hear, He will speak. And He will declare to you the things coming. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take from that which is Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Because of this, I said that He will take from that which is Mine and will disclose it to you.


[this is what we see being spoken of in 1Cor2:10,12,13,16b--which is speaking of that which has now been recorded in the Bible in the parts following His death/resurrection/ascension/exaltation (i.e. the epistles); I'm not sure why people have a hard time believing THAT TOO is "HIS WORD"--See also https://biblehub.com/text/colossians/1-25.htm "TO COMPLETE the word of God" ]

 

[Chris1975]

John 16 [just before His death on the Cross] -

12 I have yet many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them now. 13 But when He the, Spirit of truth, shall come, He will guide you into all the truth. For He will not speak from Himself, but whatever He may hear, He will speak. And He will declare to you the things coming. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take from that which is Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Because of this, I said that He will take from that which is Mine and will disclose it to you.


[this is what we see being spoken of in 1Cor2:10,12,13,16b--which is speaking of that which has now been recorded in the Bible in the parts following His death/resurrection/ascension/exaltation; I'm not sure why people have a hard time believing THAT TOO is "HIS WORD"--See also https://biblehub.com/text/colossians/1-25.htm "TO COMPLETE the word of God" ]

Because the Holy Spirit will not contradict the Word of Jesus. It's not the case of "forget" everything Jesus told you before the cross, and only believe what He tells you by the Spirit after the cross. This makes no sense.

If that were the case how would you even know to wait upon the Spirit which he promised, as this was told the disciples before the cross. There is no getting away from the Red Letter words of Jesus. If you are ashamed of these words, or choose to ignore them, then you do so at your peril.

 

[Guojing]

Because the Holy Spirit will not contradict the Word of Jesus. It's not the case of "forget" everything Jesus told you before the cross, and only believe what He tells you by the Spirit after the cross. This makes no sense.

If that were the case how would you even know to wait upon the Spirit which he promised, as this was told the disciples before the cross. There is no getting away from the Red Letter words of Jesus. If you are ashamed of these words, or choose to ignore them, then you do so at your peril.

The law of Moses was never given to the gentiles. Why do you insist on putting yourself under it?

 

[crossnote]

Bible doesnt say that conversion happens when the Holy Spirit enters you. The bible says that conversion happens when we believe in Jesus Christ (John 3v16). Holy Spirit is given as a gift to those who believe in Jesus.

Peter was already a believer in Jesus Christ. He left and forsook all to follow Jesus (so quite a commitment, and not the actions of an unbeliever). So this parable is very applicable to Peter.

I never said that Conversion happens when the Holy Spirit enters but neither will I say the new birth hinges on our believing.

 

[Chris1975]

The law of Moses was never given to the gentiles. Why do you insist on putting yourself under it?

Who said I was putting myself under it. None of us can fulfill it. Only Jesus could and did. But I suspect you don't actually believe in Jesus Christ, because you don't have his words. So why bother arguing?

 

[crossnote]

Note Romans 5:10 has two parts, 1) A reconciliation to the Father through Christs sacrifice 2) A shall be saved (future tense). Why was it written "shall be saved" as opposed to just "are saved". Given any thought to this?

Herewith the reason. Salvation has three aspects: As can be seen below:

Romans 5v1,2
5 Therefore, having been justified by faith, [a]we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

There are three aspects to our salvation. By reducing salvation to just one aspect, many will end up arguing for days and days on end (years and years). One will quote aspect number 1, and another will try refute with aspect number 2. These however are not contradictory. The bible is not contradictory.

All three Persons of the Godhead are involved in the three aspects of our common salvation.

Look carefully at the verse above:

1) We cannot be saved unless we come through the door of Jesus Christ. We are JUSTIFIED by his blood through faith in Christ Jesus, which brings PEACE with GOD. This is aspect number 1. There is no part 2 or 3 unless you come through Jesus. There is no way to the Father but by Jesus. There are hundreds of scriptures which establish this basic truth. None of us actually argue against this point. I will say it once more, just for emphasis ---- NONE of us are arguing this point.

2) We have the Spirit of Grace, the Holy Spirit, who also has a part in our salvation, but it is NOT in conflict with part 1 above. Read the scripture above once again. ------ "through whom also we have access by faith into this GRACE in which we stand". We have access to the Holy Spirit through Jesus. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Grace. It is a NOW moment. Where we currently stand. Its living out our lives in the HERE AND NOW. Whereas part 1 above refers to JUSTIFICATION, this part 2 refers to SANCTIFICATION. Its a separating ourselves from the world and worldliness. Continually transforming our minds. Becoming more Christlike. Growing in God. Growing in Love. This is also VERY MUCH a part of our salvation, as we work out our salvation with fear and trembling. To those who OVERCOME He will give the right to eat from the tree of life. There is a daily OVERCOMING. A daily picking up of our cross. There are hundreds of scriptures establishing this basic truth. Herein lies the battle for the Christian, Flesh vs Spirit and Spirit vs Flesh. Our choices remain to either live according to the flesh or the Spirit. These decisions are made in our inner man. In our soul.

3) We now have God the Father, who participates in the final concluding chapter of our Salvation, namely GLORIFICATION. It is at this point, when we come into His glorious presence that we are given new resurrected bodies (Glorified bodies). Bodies which cannot sin for they no longer have the corruption that we have been dragging around since Adam. This final chapter of Glorification to awarded to those who have overcome. How do we overcome? 1 John 5 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—[a]our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? There are also hundreds of scriptures pointing to the glorification of the saints.

None of the above is possible without Faith. We should all agree on this fact. But simply bypassing the journey, by the Holy Spirit, and simply dismissing the work of sanctification is very much unlikely to get you to the point of Glorifiction. For if you live by Faith, the life you live in part 2 will bring you through as an overcomer.

It's all one salvation through one Savior. Your 'three parts' is a human construct built on human reason.
He died once for our redemption of body, soul and spirit.

Philippians 1:6 KJV
[6] Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

 

[Guojing]

Who said I was putting myself under it. None of us can fulfill it. Only Jesus could and did. But I suspect you don't actually believe in Jesus Christ, because you don't have his words. So why bother arguing?

You don’t believe he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel?

He said that himself

 

[crossnote]

Still don't know how these verses relate to OSAS issue.. They are about how one enters into a state of being saved..

'how much more' ...when we were enemies to now we have have been reconciled how much more we shall be saved.

 

[crossnote]

The Lord's Prayer comes to mind, but I guess it isn't that important?

It is revealing the condition of our heart in the light of our forgiveness? An unforgiven person will not forgive whereas a forgiven one will have no other choice with their cleansed heart?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Because the Holy Spirit will not contradict the Word of Jesus. It's not the case of "forget" everything Jesus told you before the cross, and only believe what He tells you by the Spirit after the cross. This makes no sense.

If that were the case how would you even know to wait upon the Spirit which he promised, as this was told the disciples before the cross. There is no getting away from the Red Letter words of Jesus. If you are ashamed of these words, or choose to ignore them, then you do so at your peril.

No one said it "contradicts" (and no one is saying to "ignore" it)... but we ARE called to be "correctly apportioning the word of truth" (and to understand it aright); for example:

--"the 12" were told that THEY will "sit on twelve thrones, judgING the twelve tribes of Israel" (Lk22:30,16,18 [<--Mt26:29] and Matt19:28 [<--comp. Matt25:31-34 for its TIMING]--(that ain't you and that ain't me!);

--whereas, "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (us/we) [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (<--as to its existence)] was told, "WE SHALL JUDGE ANGELS" (this is NOT the task which was assigned to "the 12," as shown above, nor was what THEY have been assigned to do [future ^ ] what was assigned TO US to do [also "future" ^ ])


Without "correctly apportioning the word of truth," people just blur things together into one big mish-mash OF MUSH [/confusion], that serves no one.

 

[NayborBear]

I would respectfully disagree that its belief + Holy Spirit, as we see more than enough evidence of believers being saved without first receiving the Holy Spirit.
Abraham, Isaac Jacob, Lazarus who died in poverty, the Thief on the Cross with Jesus, The resurrected saints during Jesus' earthly 40 day walk after the cross, etc, etc.

When we say that so and so was a Christian or Not a Christian, it was only later in the book of Acts that people were first called Christians. So its not those who are called Christian who qualify, but rather belief in Jesus Christ.

The role of the Holy Spirit is to empower believers with a nature of God's grace that allows them to go forth and literally change the world for Christ Jesus. God in us. The hope of glory.

Now where does some possible confusion arise? We are born again when we believe in Jesus Christ. "Our" spirit comes alive within us, and is NOT to be confused with Baptism in the Holy Spirit. The disciples were already born again (as was Peter in your quoted verse above). The Baptism in the Holy Spirit came on Pentecost. This is when we are filled with the Holy Spirit. So it is worthwhile making this distinction otherwise things will get very confusing rather quickly.

With respect.

.....and then, there's these!
Matthew 7
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

One would have to conclude, that these ones Jesus "rejects?", are also these:
2 Thessalonians 2
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

So, we are to forgive even these ones'? Even though they say they are believers such as we?...Well?....such as I am, anyways.

Even though through their written words, in this venue called "internet", it doesn't take a "completely spiritually mature" believer, to "see the wolf/ves through the cracks", of their "fruit on display."
Yet? It does take some maturity concerning discernment!

Granted, it is much easier in the confronting this, on the internet, then it is IRL.

Save for those ones' who are "strongly deluded." In which case, tis easier (in my case anyway) to just walk away (for fear that only 1 of us is going to survive the ordeal). Because they don't understand. Instead? They usually "double-down", in a "confrontational mode!" In striving to "justify" their condition.
It's just like playing "chess" with a pigeon!
They "fly" onto the chess board, knock over all the pieces, poop all over the board, and then strut around, acting like its won!
IRL? I have found these kinds of people like to hear their own wind whistling through their teeth. Meaning they never stop talking! For when you never stop talking? You never have to STOP, and listen!
Then, there's "Mr. Butkus Interruptus", from the "steering committee", who never let's anyone finish a thought. (control freaks) (which is a reason I like this type of venue in particular, as I find myself being "too polite(?)", when engaged with these types of people)

Know why?
Cuz, "flesh is flesh" and "Spirit is Spirit."

 

[Chris1975]

You don’t believe he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel?

He said that himself

Luke 2
Simeon Sees God’s Salvation
25 And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the Consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. 27 So he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when the parents brought in the Child Jesus, to do for Him according to the custom of the law, 28 he took Him up in his arms and blessed God and said:

29 “Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace,
According to Your word;
30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation
31 Which You have prepared before the face of all peoples,
32 A light to bring revelation to the Gentiles,
And the glory of Your people Israel.”

33 [h]And Joseph and His mother marveled at those things which were spoken of Him. 34 Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, “Behold, this Child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against 35 (yes, a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”

Both Israel as well as the Gentiles. By Jesus saying He came to the lost sheep of Isreal doesnt preclude the fact that He is Lord too of the Gentiles

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

And so we see also, Acts 9,

15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for this man is My vessel of choice to carry My name before the Gentiles, and also kings, and the sons of Israel. 16 For I will show to him how much it behooves him to suffer for My name.”

[which at this link, shows to be IN RED : https://biblehub.com/blb/acts/9.htm ]




see also Acts 13 -

46 And Paul and Barnabas, having spoken boldly, said, “It was necessary for the word of God to be spoken first to you. But since you thrust it away and do not judge yourselves worthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47 For thus the Lord has commanded us:

‘I have set you for a light of the Gentiles,

you to be for salvation to the uttermost part of the earth.’e”