Not By Works

[Hevosmies]

I agree........it is ALL Christ or it is fraudulent.....

Let's see how this goes...

Jesus (God) deals faith in measure <--no self effort in that
Jesus BEGINS faith in us <---no self effort in that
Jesus FINISHES faith in us <---no self effort in that
Jesus SAVES ETERNALLY by the above faith <--No self effort in that
Jesus COMPLETES THE WORK OF FAITH IN US <--No self effort in that
GOD imputes the righteousness of CHRIST to US by above FAITH <--NO self effort in that
GOD positionally sanctifies us in Christ by above faith <--No self effort in that
GOD gifts us salvation irrevocably by above faith <--NO self effort in that
CHRIST produces the fruit in US as the ROOT <--No self effort in that (branches BEAR, they do not produce)
Holy Spirit SEALS us by above faith <---NO self effort in that
Christ keeps us by HIS POWER though above faith <---No self effort in that
Christ RAISES us by HIS power <---No self effort in that
Christ MEDIATES for us by HIS priesthood <---NO self effort in that
CHRIST washes us in HIS BLOOD by above faith <---NO SELF effort in that
CHRIST justifies us by his BLOOD through above faith <---NO self effort in that
God raises us to sit in heavenly places in Christ <---No self effort in that
The Holy Spirit reveals the truth to us by above faith <--No self effort in that
GOD created and made MAN <---No self effort in that
God in Christ regenerates us <---NO self effort in that

and ON and ON and ON

IT is ALL GOD/JESUS or it is FAKE, FRAUDULENT.......

MANY will say...HAVE WE NOT DONE <----interject SELF into any of the above truths will DEVALUE and VOID the above truth

SO THAT NO MAN MAY BOAST!

I will take that list and run with it btw. THANKS.

 

[EleventhHour]

I will take that list and run with it btw. THANKS.

You will have to get it from me first... and I am pretty sure I can out run you!

 

[EleventhHour]

Neither I nor Paul said we stay saved because of behaviour after being saved. Paul said, and I agreed, that “we are Christ’s house and have been made partakers of Christ if we hold fast our confidence till the end.

That means we hold fast because we are saved. It does NOT mean we are saved because we hold fast.

Taking note of things like verb tenses is critically important

The key is what is being "held fast?"

Also another important point is the reference to Christ's house.

You know salvation is not always in view.... especially taking into account the letter is written to believers, as all the letters are.

 

[Judges1318]

I was being sarcastic when I said the apostles taught OSAS every time they preach.

Oh.
I see.

 

[EleventhHour]

I was being sarcastic when I said the apostles taught OSAS every time they preach. My point was, osas was not preached as something you were required to believe to be saved. What they did was preach repentance towards God and faith in Jesus, and teaching of doctrine came afterwards to the convert. So salvation is instant, but learning of correct doctrine takes years.

I do not see this at all... you know the word saved means "saved"... there really does not need to be additional modifiers.. why would they even have to teach OSAS when the Gospel is eternal security.

It is the NOSAS crowd that do not understand the word "salvation"

 

[Judges1318]

Still awaiting documentation.

Yet most of us know there is none.

I listened to three of his videos today (couldn't find the one, out of the many, that I referenced in my post). In one of them he said if man chooses God by choosing to believe Him then that moves the boast and glory of salvation to man. It's not hard or unreasonable to see that does not take away God's glory in salvation since the believing won't happen without God. Besides, I'm not aware of any scripture that says believing is a work of merit which would require us to develop a doctrine that says man can not contribute anything to believing, or else salvation would be to his own glory (like works of the law are). Are you aware of any scriptures that say that?

Let's not make man's believing a work of merit when the Bible itself does not make it a work of merit.

 

[Judges1318]

All who are truly converted "continue" and that by God's grace; Philippians 2:11-13

Maybe they will, maybe they won't. Thus the reason for the warnings to persevere in faith. It is only by God's grace that we can continue in faith. That's why we need to stay in God's grace and not depart from the very thing that is able to keep us to the very end.

Jude 1:21 NIV
keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

Hebrews 10:23 NIV
23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess (why?), for he who promised is faithful.

Hebrews 4:14 NIV
since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.

We don't hold firmly because he does what was promised. We are told to hold firmly because he is able to do what He promised.

Hebrews 10:35-36 NIV
35So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.
36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

 

[VCO]

Have you ever considered running for political office?

Yeah, he would make a typical Democratic Politician, now that you mention it.

 

[dcontroversal]

The workers for and salvation loser's theme song....


I will arise and help JEEEZUSSS
He is to weak to keep his wordddd

I will have to finish my faithhhhh
Because he cannot keep his word

I must complete the faith in meeee
Because JEEEZUSSSS cannot keep theeeee

 

[dcontroversal]

It utterly amazes me....how many people that devalue JESUS, and by word equate him to some weak, inept liar that can save us at our worst state and then fail to keep us saved by his power through the FAITH he gives, starts, finishes and completes in us.....

 

[VCO]

So you can learn from Noah without having to follow the instructions he received from Scripture.

You cannot do likewise for the instructions James gave to the 12 tribes?

You do not UNDERSTAND dittely, do you?

The Bible was WRITTEN FOR ALL BELIEVERS, and in some authors, they had specific focuses groups that should also Pay Attention. THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT WRITTEN ANY LESS FOR EVERYONE OF US BELIEVERS. IT IS CALLED THE LIVING WORD, and I have HEARD IT SPEAK DIRECTLY TO MY HEART IN A Multitude of Scripture References; INCLUDING THE BOOK OF JAMES. How do I know, I SAYS SO, AND IT HAS SPOKEN TO MY HEART. AND IF YOU HAVE NEVER HEARD IT SPEAKING TO YOUR HEART, THAT ONLY HAPPENS ONCE YOU HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN.

2 Peter 1:19-21 (NASB)
19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

2 Timothy 3:14-17 (HCSB)
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and firmly believed. You know those who taught you,
15 and you know that from childhood you have known the sacred Scriptures, which are able to give you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

James 1:25 (HCSB)
25 But the one who looks intently into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but one who does ⌊good⌋ works—this person will be blessed in what he does.

Proverbs 1:5-6 (YLT)
5 (The wise doth hear and increaseth learning, And the intelligent doth obtain counsels.)
6 For understanding a proverb and its sweetness, Words of the wise and their acute sayings.

Psalm 1:1-2 (HCSB)
1 How happy is the man who does not follow the advice of the wicked or take the path of sinners or join a group of mockers!
2 Instead, his delight is in the LORD’s instruction, and he meditates on it day and night.

 

[Guojing]

You do not UNDERSTAND dittely, do you?

The Bible was WRITTEN FOR ALL BELIEVERS, and in some the had specific focuses groups that should also Pay Attention. THAT DOES NOT MAKE ANY LESS FOR EVERYONE OF US BELIEVERS. IT IS CALLED THE LIVING WORD, and I have HEARD IT SPEAK DIRECTLY TO MY HEART IN A Multitude of Scripture References; INCLUDING THE BOOK OF JAMES. How do I know, I SAYS SO, AND IT HAS SPOKEN TO MY HEART. AND IF YOU HAVE NEVER HEARD IT SPEAKING TO YOUR HEART, THAT ONLY HAPPENS ONCE YOU HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN.

2 Peter 1:19-21 (NASB)
19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

2 Timothy 3:14-17 (HCSB)
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and firmly believed. You know those who taught you,
15 and you know that from childhood you have known the sacred Scriptures, which are able to give you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

James 1:25 (HCSB)
25 But the one who looks intently into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but one who does ⌊good⌋ works—this person will be blessed in what he does.

Proverbs 1:5-6 (YLT)
5 (The wise doth hear and increaseth learning, And the intelligent doth obtain counsels.)
6 For understanding a proverb and its sweetness, Words of the wise and their acute sayings.

Psalm 1:1-2 (HCSB)
1 How happy is the man who does not follow the advice of the wicked or take the path of sinners or join a group of mockers!
2 Instead, his delight is in the LORD’s instruction, and he meditates on it day and night.

You are not addressing my point, but never mind, let this issue rest so that this long thread can continue in its original intent.

 

[mailmandan]

Of course I blame Calvin.
He's the one who got the heresy of once saved always saved (rooted in the teachings of the Gnostics) accepted in the church. Of course the only way that could happen is a new church had been created, for it had been fiercely resisted right from the beginning of the church.

You sound like a Roman Catholic.

Any church or individual that teaches works earn salvation should be a red flag.

Yes it should be a red flag and ALL false religions and cults that teach works earn salvation also strongly oppose OSAS, which should also be a red flag.

The problem is, you and others think believing is one of those works.

When did I ever say that believing is one of those works? Believing is believing and works are works. Believing is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works.

What you and others can't defend with the Bible is how believing in Christ is a work that can not justify.

Why would I try to defend that with the Bible when I don't teach it in the first place?

As far as I can tell, the fundamental argument being defended by once saved always saved is if YOU do the believing that is a work and, therefore, YOU trying to earn your own salvation.

Believing is clearly not a work that earns our salvation. Through believing, we are trusting exclusively in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption).

That's so incredibly ignorant of what Paul himself teaches. 'Works' is not defined by 'anything YOU do'. It is defined as doing the works of the law in order to be declared righteous by God for doing those works. And Paul plainly says, believing in Christ is not one of those works, and even says faith in Christ is utterly opposed to doing works of the law for justification. This, I'm sure, is the crux of the problem--a whole vein of doctrine that thinks believing in Christ can somehow be a self righteous work.

I never said that believing in Christ/faith in Christ is included as "one of those works" or is a "self righteous work." Justification by faith in Christ (Romans 5:1) and justification by works of the law are mutually exclusive. (Galatians 2:16)

 

[mailmandan]

I will add to this "despite the fact that a believer MAY fall for a season, but I believe that God has and uses means to restore the backslider in heart and life. If he didn't, I wouldn't be here today."

Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

 

[mailmandan]

He has been asked this question but not yet answered...
@dcontroversal calls him Ralph...

In post #117,063 I asked Judges1318 if he was Ralph..

I've heard more than one person refer to you as "Ralph." Are you the previous member "Ralph" who has returned to Christian Chat with a different avatar name?

But I'm yet to receive an answer. Dodging the question by refusing to answer the question generally equates to "guilty as charged."

 

[gb9]

In post #117,063 I asked Judges1318 if he was Ralph..



But I'm yet to receive an answer. Dodging the question by refusing to answer the question generally equates to "guilty as charged."

so many have so much to say, until they are asked a question they do want to answer, then a loud silence.

 

[Discern]

The completed action ENDS if you no longer hold fast what you heard.
This is consistent with Romans 11. You're interpretation is not.

The simple completed fact of being a partaker will stay that way IF you have the snapshot action, that may or may not continue, of holding fast.

I disagree with the premise that the concept of eternal life and eternal security was not tied in with the gospel.....JESUS used the words ETERNAL, EVERLASTING, NEVER perish, LOSE NONE, RAISE UP ALL, they shall never die, etc....and even JOB understood this truth.....

That is true. But there are things that accompany salvation that are not always immediately or fully understood. That’s why there are many eternal security passages in the Bible, not just saying believe and your saved, but driving the point home that God will finish the work

 

[Discern]

The key is what is being "held fast?"

Also another important point is the reference to Christ's house.

You know salvation is not always in view.... especially taking into account the letter is written to believers, as all the letters are.

The confidence of the hope is what is being exhorted today hold fast. It’s right there in the text.

Yes, the meaning of Christ’s house is important. Christ’s house would be believers. None who who are not believers are Christ’s house

I would say that being Christ’s house and being made partakers of Christ is referring to believers. Who else would it be?

 

[PS]

Regarding 'works.'
Seeing as Christ did it all on Calvary's Cross we only need to accept Him as our Lord and Saviour. Why would anyone say physical 'works' are necessary unless they believe their 'works' are all that is required and have neglected to go the final step and give themselves totally over to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ in their mind and heart, with the result they still belong to the Synagogue of Satan (Revelation 2:9; 3:9.)

To make sure of our salvation we need to go every step of the way, and scripture is quite clear on this. It means confessing with our mouth, possibly in front of the whole church congregation who will witness that you have accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour to the glory of God the Father. Confess that you believe He is the Son of God, that God abides in him, and he in God and that Jesus is God in the flesh, Lord of our life and Saviour to whom every knee should bow, and that we (you) shall follow him all the days of our (your) life and will keep his commandments.

Source:
1 John 4:15; 1Jn 4:2; 1Jn 5:1; Mat 10:32; Rom 10:9; Php 2:11.

 

[Discern]

I do not see this at all... you know the word saved means "saved"... there really does not need to be additional modifiers.. why would they even have to teach OSAS when the Gospel is eternal security.

It is the NOSAS crowd that do not understand the word "salvation"

If it was not necessary to teach eternal security to believers, why are there so many texts that teach eternal security to believers in the Bible? If everyone already knew that saved included eternal security, what was the need for the apostles to teach it?

To instruct in some cases and to remind in others