Not By Works

[Judges1318]

In regards to the never truly saved view, the words, once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

There are some things that suggest actual salvation has occurred, and there are things that don't necessarily suggest actual salvation has occurred. I personally don't stress the occurrence of 'enlightenment' as definitely meaning salvation has occurred. But in the case of the Hebrews in this passage it has to mean that:

Hebrews 10:32-36 NAS
32But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, 33partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. 34For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one. 35Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

And so why wouldn't this passage in the same letter to these same people about what happens to the enlightened person who falls away not be applicable to them?

Hebrews 6:4-6 NAS
4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

The Hebrews have been enlightened unto salvation, not just unto revelation. And these same Hebrews are warned about what happens to enlightened people who fall away. But we're supposed to take the warning given to enlightened saved people as only talking to enlightened not saved people? That's not reasonable.

 

[VCO]

I see PS has become the RED X TROLL, since I had to put him on my IGNORE LIST last night.
It seems the Holy Spirit, made me aware that I was FINISHED with PS, and he is on his own with his False Doctrines.

I wonder if these verses mean something to him, or does he just ignore them too:

Galatians 5:18-21 (HCSB)
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions,
21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar. I tell you about these things in advance—as I told you before—that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Proverbs 20:3 (NIV)
3 It is to a man's honor to avoid strife, but every fool is quick to quarrel.

Proverbs 29:22 (NRSV)
22 One given to anger stirs up strife, and the hothead causes much transgression.


Therefore, I had to put him on my Ignore List, to prevent him from pushing me to strife.

I will support the OSAS POSITION, without addressing him. We do not want a wolf, attacking the LAMBS, getting them to doubt their OSAS Faith.

 

[Judges1318]

In regards to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive..

And because Hebrews 3:14 does refer to 'partakers of Christ', there's no reason the author in this same letter to these same people doesn't mean that, too, when he refers to being 'partakers of the Holy Spirit' in Hebrews 6:4. Even the Greek verb rendered 'made/become' is the same in both passages:

"have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit" Hebrews 6:4 NAS

"have become partakers of Christ" - Hebrews 3:14 NAS

It is the Holy Spirit that makes us partakers of Christ and his divine nature. It's referring to the same thing.

"His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature" - 2 Peter 1:4

By definition, that is a reference to a saved person--a person who has Christ in them by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Discern]

Chiefly, that you have to continue to believe to be saved.
Even Calvin's once saved always saved believes this!

No, Calvin taught you WILL continue to believe if you are of Gods elect

 

[Discern]

Chiefly, that you have to continue to believe to be saved.
Even Calvin's once saved always saved believes this!

Our perserverance is not founded on our own power or industry, but on Christ. (John Calvin)

 

[PS]

I see PS has become the RED X TROLL, since I had to put him on my IGNORE LIST last night.
It seems the Holy Spirit, made me aware that I was FINISHED with PS, and he is on his own with his False Doctrines.

I wonder if these verses mean something to him, or does he just ignore them too:

Galatians 5:18-21 (HCSB)
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions,
21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar. I tell you about these things in advance—as I told you before—that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Proverbs 20:3 (NIV)
3 It is to a man's honor to avoid strife, but every fool is quick to quarrel.

Proverbs 29:22 (NRSV)
22 One given to anger stirs up strife, and the hothead causes much transgression.


Therefore, I had to put him on my Ignore List, to prevent him from pushing me to strife.

I will support the OSAS POSITION, without addressing him. We do not want a wolf, attacking the LAMBS, getting them to doubt their OSAS Faith.

I’m not sure what these scriptures have to do with OSAS? All three passages are about the wickedness of the unsaved who are described as being licentious, quarrelsome and angry. A far cry from those who walk in the Spirit.

The Contemporary English Version is very clear.

If you are guided by the Spirit, you won't obey your selfish desires. The Spirit and your desires are enemies of each other. They are always fighting each other and keeping you from doing what you feel you should. But if you obey the Spirit, the Law of Moses has no control over you.

People's desires make them give in to immoral ways, filthy thoughts, and shameful deeds. They worship idols, practice witchcraft, hate others, and are hard to get along with. People become jealous, angry, and selfish. They not only argue and cause trouble, but they are envious. They get drunk, carry on at wild parties, and do other evil things as well. I told you before, and I am telling you again: No one who does these things will share in the blessings of God's kingdom.

God's Spirit makes us loving, happy, peaceful, patient, kind, good, faithful, gentle, and self-controlled. There is no law against behaving in any of these ways. And because we belong to Christ Jesus, we have killed our selfish feelings and desires.
(Gal 5:16-24 CEV)

These are from the Believers Bible.

Pro 20:3 An honorable person makes a point of keeping aloof from strife. A fool isn't happy unless he's quarreling with someone.

Pro 29:22 Most of us have met these two men at one time or another. The angry man stirs up all kinds of trouble, and the passionate or furious man commits plenty of sins.

 

[Judges1318]

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that the writer of Hebrews is talking about people who are not genuine believers.

But why does the emboldened red part mean that they could only have ever been fake believers all along and could not have ever been genuine believers? Aren't you projecting a once saved always saved bias onto the passage which causes you to see 'unfruitful' as meaning 'never, ever truly believed'?


And you must see, by your own argument using the Hebrews 6 passage, that the Hebrews ARE saved. The warnings we've been discussing are being given to genuinely saved people, not possibly unsaved people who think they're saved and only have a superficial association with God's genuinely saved people and the things of God.

Hebrews 6:9-12 NAS
9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation (your fruitfulness), though we are speaking in this way (that barren fields get burned up in the end). 10For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. 11And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

He plainly says he is convinced they are not fields that will get burned up in the end, because they are fruitful, having genuine work and love in the name of God for the saints which God will not unjustly forget. That's talking about genuinely saved people, not potentially fake people.

And he tells these genuinely saved people to show that same diligence of faith and patience (notice he didn't say 'works') through which the promises are inherited. Without which (faith and the perseverance of faith) you can not inherit the promises, but instead will be burned up. So the warnings to not fall away from that believing are in fact being delivered to actual saved people, not fake believers.

And as to these warnings addressing the hypothetical case in which it is impossible that a true believer not persevere in faith to the end, they're just too pointed and serious for them to be about the hypothetical case of a genuine believer not believing and persevering in faith anymore. Yes, the warning will always work to keep the true believer close to God in faith and works of faith who wants to stay close to God, but what about the believer who doesn't want to anymore? That's not a hypothetical scenario. It happens. We can't just write off every 'believer' who quits on Christ as having never really been saved. That scenario is addressed to often and too seriously in scripture for it to be merely hypothetical. And experience shows it does happen.

 

[Judges1318]

Our perserverance is not founded on our own power or industry, but on Christ. (John Calvin)

...but which is a power that is not indulged apart from your will to indulge it.

It only doesn't depend on your will in that Christ is the actual power in salvation, not the power of your will, but you must certainly have the will to believe and keep believing in the power of God to be saved and remain saved to the very end of this life. Thus the many warnings in scripture to continue to belief in order to continue in the Son and the Father.

 

[Judges1318]

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

Like I say, why does this have to mean they were never saved to begin with.
We both agree that fruitless fields, branches, etc. are not saved. What we disagree on is if they could have ever been saved to begin with. Why could they have not ever been saved?

 

[Discern]

...but which is a power that is not indulged apart from your will to indulge it.

It only doesn't depend on your will in that Christ is the actual power in salvation, not the power of your will, but you must certainly have the will to believe and keep believing in the power of God to be saved and remain saved to the very end of this life. Thus the many warnings in scripture to continue to belief in order to continue in the Son and the Father.

...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

My willpower is not a firm foundation. So I do not put much stock in it.

Apart from God’s preserving grace, I would surely fall away.

 

[Discern]

...but which is a power that is not indulged apart from your will to indulge it.

It only doesn't depend on your will in that Christ is the actual power in salvation, not the power of your will, but you must certainly have the will to believe and keep believing in the power of God to be saved and remain saved to the very end of this life. Thus the many warnings in scripture to continue to belief in order to continue in the Son and the Father.

I think it is God who gives you the will.

And, yes, there are warnings to continue in the faith. And those that are God’s hear God’s Words. 1 John 2:3

 

[Judges1318]

It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation.

That's right. You can not come back after you lose your salvation. That would put Christ to open shame and God won't allow that. It's not even a matter of the person won't want to come back. God simply does not allow Christ to be put to open shame that way.

I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals.

Ultimately, yes, only God knows.
But the scriptures do give us the right to discern from people's lives if they should be considered a believer or not. And it gives us that right and responsibility in order to protect us from false brethren and their doctrines. But, actually, it is Calvin's doctrine who says we can know for certain if a person is unsaved (and was never saved to begin with) by if they leave or not. Me? I just go by what the Bible says: the person who believes is saved. The person who doesn't believe is not saved. And that's why we should keep believing. Simple. There is no need to go beyond this simple Biblical truth.

We have to stop being led into meaningless rabbit trails by church theologians needlessly over thinking the scriptures and the things of God. Calvinism and the various offshoots and varieties of his doctrines are in my opinion the epitome of man's constant over thinking of the scriptures. Over thinking anything usually destroys the meaning and intent of that which you are over thinking and leads you away from the truth and practicality you are seeking. ...and that about sums it up for our lifeless evangelical church today.

Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart.

They knew Judas was stealing out of the money bag.

5Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? 6This he (Judas) said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. - John 12:5-6 KJV

There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers. Think about it.

There is, but instead of trying to figure out if they were ever really saved to begin with or not, just understand that they are not saved now, because they do not believe now. And the warning to them is to come back to faith while it's still possible (like it was still possible for the Galatians). Because after a while of resisting God's offer to come back God will honor the decision to no longer believe and will shut the exbeliever out forever. After which there is zero opportunity to come back, even if they seek it with tears.

I'm not trying to discourage any exbeliever who is at the point of tears right now and wants to come back to Christ. I think they should try to come back. One thing I will agree with you about is we are not fit to pronounce finality over anyone's position with God. Their situation is particular to them and them alone and they must work it out between themselves and God. We just know that the person who does not believe today is not saved today. That is the truth in which there should be no dispute whatsoever. Only believers are saved.

 

[Judges1318]

...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

My willpower is not a firm foundation. So I do not put much stock in it.

Apart from God’s preserving grace, I would surely fall away.

Your will power is far too inadequate without God's encouragement.
That hardly means you do not have to have the will to believe and to continue to believe to be saved.
It does mean you can not be saved by the power of your will alone.

 

[Judges1318]

I think it is God who gives you the will.

No, he does not assign you your will.
He encourages and nurtures your will to know and believe in him. He does not assign you the will to know and believe in him.
And his success or failure in that venture is based on what kind of soil he's dealing with.
He'll do all that he can, and thinks he should do, with the soil of a person's heart, but ultimately, if the word of God won't grow and be sustained there despite all his efforts, well, that's the soil's fault, not God's. That 'soil' earns the just wages of it's own sinfulness and rejection of God's word.

And, yes, there are warnings to continue in the faith. And those that are God’s hear God’s Words. 1 John 2:3

That's why we should continue to be God's through a continued faith in God and a retention of his word that we first heard.
If the soil of your heart does not retain his words, eventually you won't have any God's words in your soil to hear and you won't be God's possession. You will be land that is, in the end, burned up, not harvested for the Master for whose sake it was tilled.

 

[Discern]

No, he does not assign you your will.
He encourages and nurtures your will to know and believe in him. He does not assign you the will to know and believe in him.
And his success or failure in that venture is based on what kind of soil he's dealing with.
He'll do all that he can, and thinks he should do, with the soil of a person's heart, but ultimately, if the word of God won't grow and be sustained there despite all his efforts, well, that's the soil's fault, not God's. That 'soil' earns the just wages of it's own sinfulness and rejection of God's word.


That's why we should continue to be God's through a continued faith in God and a retention of his word that we first heard.
If the soil of your heart does not retain his words, eventually you won't have any God's words in your soil to hear and you won't be God's possession. You will be land that is, in the end, burned up, not harvested for the Master for whose sake it was tilled.

He works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. That’s what I meant.

 

[Judges1318]

No, Calvin taught you WILL continue to believe if you are of Gods elect

That's what I'm saying.

Calvin's once saved always saved doctrine made no room for the believer to not believe anymore based on a scripturally contradictory, and thus false, understanding of 1 John 2:19, yet many people think they are still saved even if they stop believing because once saved always saved says you can never lose your salvation. See the irrational duplicity and circular reasoning of the argument? That's why I said, even Calvin said you must believe to the very end to be saved. But all I get is flack from Christians when you tell them that they have to continue to believe to the end to be saved. And to add to the confusion they call that 'works'. It's a really confusing messed up theology.

 

[Judges1318]

He works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. That’s what I meant.

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly.

I just resist any suggestion that 'election' (being chosen) means he assigns to everyone what will they are going to have. But that is what Calvin teaches. It didn't mean that for the nation of God's people, Israel. And it doesn't mean that for the nation of God's people, the church.

 

[Judges1318]

Apart from God’s preserving grace, I would surely fall away.

Me and you and everybody else.

That's why we should continue to cling to that grace that is able to keep us.

 

[Discern]

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly.

I just resist any suggestion that 'election' (being chosen) means he assigns to everyone what will they are going to have. But that is what Calvin teaches. It didn't mean that for the nation of God's people, Israel. And it doesn't mean that for the nation of God's people, the church.

That’s not quite what Calvin taught. He taught God raises some to life and LEAVES the rest to their own will.

God does not create sinful wills in Calvinism

I do not agree with Calvinism a lot of , but I do believe that God raises a person to spiritual life, which effects the entire person, including the will

And yes, I do believe in holding fast to the faith. But is spiritual life that God gives us that makes that possible.

 

[Judges1318]

That’s not quite what Calvin taught. He taught regeneration, which raises a person to life for some, and LEAViNG the rest to their own will.

God does not create sinful wills in Calvinism

I do not agree with Calvinism, but I do believe that God raises a person to spiritual life, which effects the entire person, including the will

And yes, I do believe in holding fast to the faith. But is spiritual life that God gives us that makes that possible.

Then you do not hold to Calvin's concept of 'election'...I think, lol.
Which is good if you don't.

He said God purposely creates believers, designed and pre-programmed ahead of time to be believers, and he purposely creates unbelievers, designed and pre-programmed ahead of time to be unbelievers. And each of us just lives out that preordained path of believing or unbelieving that he put us on and which we can not get off of.

It's good if you do not believe that meaningless nonsense.