Not By Works

[PS]

he Does not believe Christ paid it all

Wrong.

 

[EleventhHour]

Wrong.

Anyone who teaches salvation can be lost ultimately believes this... they just cannot, will not admit it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But you can try to finish in the flesh what was begun in the Spirit.... even a believer can fall into the wrong thinking they have to keep the Sabbath even today.... if you are told it enough you can become convinced... especially someone new in Christ.

They can believe that is how they get saved?

sorry I do not believe this.

believe you must follow sabbath? I can see that, as legalistic sanctification

essential for salvation? No

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wrong.

You prove i Am right by your posts.

if you believed jesus paid it all, you would believe eternal life is secure in Christ and you have it forever, you would believe Jesus paid it all

you do not so...

 

[Discern]

I have commonly heard three different interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6 (hypothetical view, lost salvation view, never truly saved view) but am not convinced that it "unequivocally" teaches a really "saved" person truly "lost their salvation." According to the hypothetical interpretation, the key word in the passage is IF (verse 6). According to this view, the writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement, "IF a Christian were to fall away." The point being made is that it would be impossible if a Christian fell away to renew them again. That’s because Christ died once for sin and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all. The passage then presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can permanently fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion that they would crucify again for themselves the Son of God. In Proverbs 24:16, we read - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, but the wicked shall fall by calamity. Impossible to be renewed does not equate to rising again.

In regards to the never truly saved view, the words, once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

In regards to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive..

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God, yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these positive factors may be genuine Christians, yet these factors alone are not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of the Christian life (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, adoption etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet some draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth and do not believe to the saving of the soul, as we see in (Hebrews 10:26-39)

These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responded to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" or have "received the Spirit's pledge which is the guarantee of future inheritance." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

In regards to tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of the quality of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we taste into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Those in Matthew 7:22-23 prophesied, cast out demons, performed works in Jesus' name, but were not saved. Jesus NEVER knew them and referred to them as "workers of iniquity" (v. 23). Such people certainly would have experienced what we read in Hebrews 6:4-6, yet were not genuine believers. It's not hard to find those types of people in Matthew 7:22-23 (which even sounds descriptive of word of faith teachers) on TBN.

In regards to fall away, in Proverbs 24:16, we read - For a righteous man may fall seven times AND rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. Those who permanently fall away demonstrate they were not truly born again. (1 John 2:19)

In regards to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (self moral reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for your argument.

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that the writer of Hebrews is talking about people who are not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers. Think about it.

Yes, perhaps some people get a taste of grace but reject it and fail to drink. It is those that drink the water that Jesus gives that receive a well in them springing up unto eternal life

Spring up oh well, splish splash

MMD, your posts are blessing and strengthening me.

 

[EleventhHour]

You prove i Am right by your posts.

if you believed jesus paid it all, you would believe eternal life is secure in Christ and you have it forever, you would believe Jesus paid it all

you do not so...

I think the point is this they were justified...did not fully grasp their justification and went back to trying to incorporate the law just to be safe and Paul is telling them no.... not necessary and actually you are mixing race with law and this cannot be done.

 

[EleventhHour]

Yes, perhaps some people get a taste of grace but reject it and fail to drink. It is those that drink the water that Jesus gives that receive a well in them springing up unto eternal life

Spring up oh well, splish splash

MMD, your posts are blessing and strengthening me.

That was not the Hebrews though they were saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think the point is this they were justified...did not fully grasp their justification and went back to trying to incorporate the law just to be safe and Paul is telling them no.... not necessary and actually you are mixing race with law and this cannot be done.

Again

he said they were attempting to be justified by law

thats plain

 

[PS]

You prove i Am right by your posts.

if you believed jesus paid it all, you would believe eternal life is secure in Christ and you have it forever, you would believe Jesus paid it all

you do not so...

Jesus paid it all for those who believe in Him and accept Him as their saviour, providing they do not reject Him later.

 

[EleventhHour]

Again

he said they were attempting to be justified by law

thats plain

Can you give me the exact verse...thanks.

 

[Discern]

That was not the Hebrews though they were saved.

On the Hebrews 6 passage. MMD did a good job of speaking on that, so I went back and read it this morning and I came away with this.

a. In Hebrews 6, Paul is speaking to professing Jewish believers.

b. Some within professing Christianity are saved, some are not, but are merely "professing" Christianity

c. Some who "profess" Christianity will endure to the end, some will not. Again, not all professors are possessors

d. The professing Hebrew Christians were in tremendous pressure through persecution to leave Christ and to return to Judaism.

e. in the midst of this, Paul begins to deal with a hypothetical scenerio

f. Paul begins speaking of a hypothehtical group of people, and lists a series of experiences and qualities these people had received. They had received GREAT SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCES, and from all outward appearances, they appeared to be Christians.

g. Yet if they fell away... that is, if they forsake Christ and go back to the Judaic system of the Law, as they were tempted to do.

h. It would be impossible to renew them unto repentance...Because there is no salvation in that system. To fall away in this passage is to depart from Christ and the NEW Covenant and return to and remain in the Old Covenant system, in which there is no salvation.

I. Seeing they crucify afresh the Son of God and put Him to open shame...the sin of forsaking Christ is abhorrent.

j. God sends rain on the good ground and the cursed ground alike, and He blesses the ground that bears fruit, but the ground that bears thorns and briars is cursed.

k. Yet Paul is persuaded of better things of the Hebrews, and things that accompany salvation, that is he really did not expect this to happen to any genuine believer.

L. God is using Paul's words as a means of grace to prevent the Hebrew Christians from returning to Judaism. Those who were truly of God will hear God's Words. Those who are not of God, will disregard them to their own destruction.

m. The truly Elect are manifested in that they hear God. The unsaved are manifested in that they disregard God's Word.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Per request of @Ruby123..

 

[Discern]

Per request of @Ruby123..

View attachment 208350


View attachment 208351

LOL, capitalize God's name or He will revoke your salvation. That was a good one.

 

[EleventhHour]

Am very calm ...

 

[Discern]

On the Hebrews 6 passage. MMD did a good job of speaking on that, so I went back and read it this morning and I came away with this.

a. In Hebrews 6, Paul is speaking to professing Jewish believers.

b. Some within professing Christianity are saved, some are not, but are merely "professing" Christianity

c. Some who "profess" Christianity will endure to the end, some will not. Again, not all professors are possessors

d. The professing Hebrew Christians were in tremendous pressure through persecution to leave Christ and to return to Judaism.

e. in the midst of this, Paul begins to deal with a hypothetical scenerio

f. Paul begins speaking of a hypothehtical group of people, and lists a series of experiences and qualities these people had received. They had received GREAT SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCES, and from all outward appearances, they appeared to be Christians.

g. Yet if they fell away... that is, if they forsake Christ and go back to the Judaic system of the Law, as they were tempted to do.

h. It would be impossible to renew them unto repentance...Because there is no salvation in that system. To fall away in this passage is to depart from Christ and the NEW Covenant and return to and remain in the Old Covenant system, in which there is no salvation.

I. Seeing they crucify afresh the Son of God and put Him to open shame...the sin of forsaking Christ is abhorrent.

j. God sends rain on the good ground and the cursed ground alike, and He blesses the ground that bears fruit, but the ground that bears thorns and briars is cursed.

k. Yet Paul is persuaded of better things of the Hebrews, and things that accompany salvation, that is he really did not expect this to happen to any genuine believer.

L. God is using Paul's words as a means of grace to prevent the Hebrew Christians from returning to Judaism. Those who were truly of God will hear God's Words. Those who are not of God, will disregard them to their own destruction.

m. The truly Elect are manifested in that they hear God. The unsaved are manifested in that they disregard God's Word.

1 John 4:5-6-

So those of faith would have read the writer of Hebrews words, heeded his warning, and not returned to Judaism

I said earlier "Paul", but I am not sure Paul wrote Hebrews.

 

[posthuman]

Spring up oh well, splish splash

and make me whoooooole ♪♫





((does the hand motions))

 

[Discern]

 

[Discern]

190. But the next day at evening, being under many fears, I went to seek the Lord, and as I prayed, I cried, and my soul cried to Him in these words, with strong cries: O Lord, I beseech Thee, show me that Thou hast loved me with everlasting love. Jer. xxxi. 3. I had no sooner said it, but with sweetness this returned upon me, as an echo, or sounding again, I have loved thee with an everlasting love. Now I went to bed in quiet; also when I awakened the next morning, it was fresh upon my soul; and I believed it.

John Bunyan "Grace abounding to the chief of sinners"

 

[Judges1318]

According to the hypothetical interpretation, the key word in the passage is IF (verse 6). According to this view, the writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement, "IF a Christian were to fall away."

Well, I have noticed that most of the once saved always saved arguments make the warnings of the Bible hypothetical. But, there's so many of them, and they are quite pointed and serious, that I can not easily believe they are just hypothetical.

The point being made is that it would be impossible if a Christian fell away to renew them again. That’s because Christ died once for sin and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all.

But Jesus himself said there is a sin for which there is no sacrifice sufficient to cover it, and that is the sin of rejecting the testimony of the Holy Spirit. This is to be distinguished from man's testimony, which is important too, but when the testimony of God himself, through the Holy Spirit is in your face and indisputable and you turn away from it then there is indeed no hope for that person. No sacrifice exists, not even Jesus', to cover that sin. He is indeed insufficient to cover that sin. So the question is not whether or not Jesus covers that sin for the person who once believed, but if they can really commit that sin. Because if they do, and they don't come back, they're done.

The passage then presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can permanently fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion that they would crucify again for themselves the Son of God.

It's not a senseless conclusion. Putting Christ to open shame is not a senseless conclusion. And that is the very reason a person is NOT ALLOWED to put Christ to open shame. The being renewed to repentance is what is not allowed because that causes the public shame of Christ. The falling away part, that is allowd.

In Proverbs 24:16, we read - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, but the wicked shall fall by calamity. Impossible to be renewed does not equate to rising again.

How does a righteous man fall and rise again without repenting?
And surely this is talking about the struggle of life in God, not falling away from God altogether in unbelief.

 

[Judges1318]

Hebrews 3:6. Hebrews 3:14

What do they teach?

Chiefly, that you have to continue to believe to be saved.
Even Calvin's once saved always saved believes this!