@Ahwatukee Could you send me a private message I would like to talk with you and I am not a subscriber to the forum so it does not allow me to send any.
What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?
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Mark 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ [PRE TRIB RAPTURE] or, lo, he is there, believe him not
Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mark 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Mark 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
Mark 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
I HAVE FORETOLD YOU ALL THINGS - AND JESUS NEVER MENTIONS a return pre trib of any kind
And those who believe in pre trib have also got to convince themselves that "the elect" are not a part of the church.
If ALL the elect are being gathered from HEAVEN and EARTH, when "shall they see the Son of Man coming", you know the Day of the Lord, the Millennium, the 1000 yrs are commencing, HERE ON EARTH.
THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS till ALL THESE THINGS BE DONE
No hint of a partial generation that has been "left behind"
Lexicon
5119 the, at that time
640 to send, send away
32a a messenger, angel
1996 to gather together
1588 select, by implication favorite
5064 four
417 wind
206 highest, extreme
206 highest, extreme
1093 the earth, land
206 highest, extreme
3772 heaven
Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mark 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Mark 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
Mark 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
I HAVE FORETOLD YOU ALL THINGS - AND JESUS NEVER MENTIONS a return pre trib of any kind
And those who believe in pre trib have also got to convince themselves that "the elect" are not a part of the church.
If ALL the elect are being gathered from HEAVEN and EARTH, when "shall they see the Son of Man coming", you know the Day of the Lord, the Millennium, the 1000 yrs are commencing, HERE ON EARTH.
THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS till ALL THESE THINGS BE DONE
No hint of a partial generation that has been "left behind"
Lexicon
5119 the, at that time
640 to send, send away
32a a messenger, angel
1996 to gather together
1588 select, by implication favorite
5064 four
417 wind
206 highest, extreme
206 highest, extreme
1093 the earth, land
206 highest, extreme
3772 heaven
Maybe you could enlighten me once you calm down enoughHere you go again, bragging about things you have no knowledge about which means your "clueless." What kind of "asinine" statement is this when you say, "(You will never hear a postrib unpack our verses. They skip them every time.)"
I am not skipping them and furthermore you don't even know the meaning of the parable of the ten virgins. Explain to all of us here the purpose of the ten virgins and why are five of them foolish? You said in your very first sentence, the virgins went out to meet the groom. So what was the point of the parable of the five foolish virgins? I'm hoping at least this time you do your homework and figure things out first before you "blurt" these asinine statements without any context.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
In his work, On The Last Times 2, he wrote:Is this all you got absolutely? How do you know what Ephraim actually said, "For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
The second I read those words I said to myself, "these words sound to modern to me." I then did my own homework and research and found the following site.
http://salvationbygrace.org/current-qa/ephraim-and-the-rapture/
What is interesting about this site is the fact that the author is a pretribulationist and is not convinced that these are the words of "Ephraim." He says there was a guy who was "pseudo Ephraim" that wrote those words. Just read the article for yourself. Btw, again your caught not doing your homework in verifying what is said. I know you quoted "Wikipedia" which is written by people of all stripes that may or not may have an agenda. Again, try being a good Berean according to Acts 17:11. : PS: You sure are easy to "dupe."
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.
You guys are wrong.
postribs say there can only be one coming.
So,i assume they think the wise virgins,1 thes 4,the "one taken",the misplaced "after the trib" gathering,rev. 14 harvest, Jesus coming prejudgement(lot and noah) ,the setting (peacetme),the setting second coming(wartime with destroyed earth),the dead in christ raised after the living,....
All that is. Supposedly one event.
....with no regard to harvest not only being 4 parts but the 2 harvests (grapes and grain) COMPLETELY ignored.
And get this....the rapture is vividly framed in harvest.
Bride and groom...COMPLETELY ....TOTALLY ignored
So,i assume they think the wise virgins,1 thes 4,the "one taken",the misplaced "after the trib" gathering,rev. 14 harvest, Jesus coming prejudgement(lot and noah) ,the setting (peacetme),the setting second coming(wartime with destroyed earth),the dead in christ raised after the living,....
All that is. Supposedly one event.
....with no regard to harvest not only being 4 parts but the 2 harvests (grapes and grain) COMPLETELY ignored.
And get this....the rapture is vividly framed in harvest.
Bride and groom...COMPLETELY ....TOTALLY ignored
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us
Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace
Ephesians 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby
Ephesians 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Ephesians 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God
Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Ephesians 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Ephesians 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Both are MADE ONE, fellowcitizens, with THE SAINTS fellowcitizens who will be here THROUGH the tribulation so....
Its not complicated. Its simple.
Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us
Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace
Ephesians 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby
Ephesians 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Ephesians 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God
Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Ephesians 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Ephesians 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Both are MADE ONE, fellowcitizens, with THE SAINTS fellowcitizens who will be here THROUGH the tribulation so....
Its not complicated. Its simple.
I've said that "the Day of the Lord" is an earthly-located time-period of much duration: "a-period-of-time-[not-lasting-merely-24-hrs]-of-JUDGMENTs-followed-by-a-period-of-time-[also-not-lasting-merely-24-hrs]-of-BLESSINGs" [<--ALL THAT]... so I've pointed out that it consists of ALL THREE of the following:
1) the 7-yr tribulation period upon the earth (the "DARK/DARKNESS" / "IN THE NIGHT" [/NIGHT WATCHES] portion); and
2) His Second Coming to the earth (the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" portion); and
3) the 1000-yr reign on/over the earth (the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" portion)
^ ALL THREE ( = "the Day of the Lord"... it is not merely "a singular 24-hr day").
In view of that (which I've stated repeatedly ^ ),
the Matthew 24:29-31 passage (your passage) is referring to the time-slot of His Second Coming to the earth (recall what I've said about the Olivet Discourse). So I've said that Matthew 24:29-31 is what takes place AFTER the trib yrs, at the time-slot of His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the earthly MK age to commence [and is NOT covering the Subject of "our Rapture" at all, per context]).
Compare the following two passages (I've pointed out in several posts):
Matthew 24:29-31 [ylt] -
29 ‘And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken; 30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory; 31 and he shall send his messengers [/angels] with a great sound of a trumpet, and they [the angels/messengers] shall gather together his chosen from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens unto the ends thereof [i.e. from the extremities (note: this is not saying the destination is "TO Heaven")].
Isaiah 27:12-13 [and 9a for good measure, this time] [bsb] -
9 Therefore Jacob’s guilt will be atoned for,
and the full fruit of the removal of his sin will be this:c [<--note: see Rom11:27 in its context]
[...]
12 In that day the LORD will thresh from the flowing Euphratesd to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be gathered one by one. 13 And in that day a great ram’s horn [/trumpet] will sound, and those who were perishing in Assyria will come forth with those who were exiles in Egypt. And they will worship the LORD on the holy mountain in Jerusalem.
[compare also Isaiah 24:[21-22]23, which passage I've shown in past posts to be parallel time-wise with Rev19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 at the time of His Second Coming to the earth; see also Isa11:11-12]
[these passages ^ are NOT about "our Rapture"... but they do take place WITHIN the overall time period known as "the Day of the Lord" which has three parts total (see part "2)" from the list above, for the portion regarding "His Second Coming to the earth" which is where Matt24:29-31 "fits" in--AFTER the trib yrs, and at the "GREAT trumpet")]
Your passage ^ [shown in part here] is covering the "NOW" ("in this present age [singular]"); it is not covering the time period referred to in Ephesians 1:10, which is NOT the "NOW"/"in this present age [singular]"... but yet future (again, speaking of the time period [future] in Ephesians 1:10; distinct from this Eph2 chpt's "NOW" IN Christ Jesus [wherein there is NO distinction in our standing before God "IN CHRIST"])
Don't confuse the Great trib & rapture with the millennial reign of Christ or with the white throne judgement or the new heaven. They are not the same.
Thank you for this point, I will be using it! Do you believe that Revelation 4:1 is the pre-trib Rapture or an allusion to it?
Has anyone noticed this: Paul tells us that if we don't provide for our own we are worse than an infidel and have denied the faith, and he tells Corinthians to buy whatever from the market.
Question for post-tribbers: How can you provide for your own in the tribulation without getting the mark of the beast? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I know post-tribbers have read the book of Revelation, I hope so atleast. Certainly they have, there are commentaries around you know. I just cannot understand how anyone can say that the Church can be protected like Israel was in Egypt during the plagues, it is completely different because these events like all green grass burning up and waters turning to blood and third of the trees burning, unable to buy or sell and large earthquakes are things where you just cannot walk outside the city walls and be ok.
When it comes to "Does God hate those tribulation saints then because He puts them through it but not the Church?"
The answer is that it is similar to a doctor telling a man "If you do not stop drinking, your liver will explode" then when the liver explodes you cannot blame the doctor. Same way today the door is open to put your faith in Jesus and be baptized into His body. You can be one of the wise with oil in their lamps. If you neglect it, the door will be closed and the Lord will not know you, leaving you to face the horrors of the mark of the beast, deception like never before, natural disasters like never before, supernatural occurances like never before and God has enough grace to still offer people a way out, but it is much harder in that time.
Think about a saved man today, born again man who is in a wheelchair, who has some medical condition, who might be blind, deaf, mute or whatever disadvantage a man can have physically speaking. Are you seriously claiming God will put that man in a time period where he has to contend with all that is included in the great tribulation? What about the elderly? Tell me how that is "not appointed to wrath" when it is the Lamb that opens the seals, it is God that is unleashing all these things, not evil people persecuting the Church as it was in the apostolic days and still is today especially in the Middle-East and Asia.
The answer is that it is similar to a doctor telling a man "If you do not stop drinking, your liver will explode" then when the liver explodes you cannot blame the doctor. Same way today the door is open to put your faith in Jesus and be baptized into His body. You can be one of the wise with oil in their lamps. If you neglect it, the door will be closed and the Lord will not know you, leaving you to face the horrors of the mark of the beast, deception like never before, natural disasters like never before, supernatural occurances like never before and God has enough grace to still offer people a way out, but it is much harder in that time.
Think about a saved man today, born again man who is in a wheelchair, who has some medical condition, who might be blind, deaf, mute or whatever disadvantage a man can have physically speaking. Are you seriously claiming God will put that man in a time period where he has to contend with all that is included in the great tribulation? What about the elderly? Tell me how that is "not appointed to wrath" when it is the Lamb that opens the seals, it is God that is unleashing all these things, not evil people persecuting the Church as it was in the apostolic days and still is today especially in the Middle-East and Asia.
NO! Todays devotional on CRA in fact touched on this point from>
1 Peter 1:3-7 "3Praise be to the God and Father of our LORD Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith-of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire-may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed." NIV
I believe the Rapture is not part of the Day of the Lord because the Thessalonians were influenced by the first post-tribbers in Church history and were troubled that the day of the Lord was at hand already due to the persecution they were facing.
Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Amillennialism refuted in one verse. In Amillennialism there are no nations left when Jesus returns and its a general resurrection and eternity begins. Therefore in Amillennialism this promise to one of the Churches in Revelation 2 can never be fulfilled.
Amillennialism refuted in one verse. In Amillennialism there are no nations left when Jesus returns and its a general resurrection and eternity begins. Therefore in Amillennialism this promise to one of the Churches in Revelation 2 can never be fulfilled.
You assume I am making the same assumptions that you are. If you want to get your point across, quote the verse, say how you interpret it and why.
My approach is to rely on more straightforward scripture to interpret the apocalyptic genre.
Where do you get a separate rapture which is 'our rapture' that is distinct from the one that occurs when Jesus comes back?
Let me ask (coz I'm not sure according to what you wrote here ^ ), are you thinking that I was saying that it IS??
I've stated repeatedly, that "Rapture [G726 - harpagēsometha / harpazó ]" pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (all those saved "in this present age [singular]"), NOT to all other saints of all OTHER time periods (so NOT to "OT saints," NOT to "Trib saints," NOT to "MK saints"); therefore, what we see in Matt24:29-31/Isa27:12-13 (their being gathered by angels "to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM") is NOT the "SNATCH [G726 - harpagēsometha / harpazó ], which is [to] "IN THE AIR" and for a completely distinct PURPOSE (and completely distinct TIME-SLOT, and completely distinct TRUMPET, and completely distinct MANNER--"AS ONE," not "ONE-BY-ONE") etc... distinct in EVERY WAY.
Matthew 24:29-31/Isaiah 27:12-13 (AFTER the trib) is not a "RAPTURE" (that word is never used with regard to THIS)
Hope that helps.