Is The Doctrine Of Unconditional Eternal Security Scriptural?
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C
John 8
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”
34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
based on this
i would say yes
but look at it close
If you hold to my teaching
the truth will set you free
So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
so if you are set free what could change that ?
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”
34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
based on this
i would say yes
but look at it close
If you hold to my teaching
the truth will set you free
So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
so if you are set free what could change that ?
Here are my reasons I do not believe in forced preservation of faith unto salvation. I do believe and have observed people lose belief in Christ due to sin, grief, or anger.
On the other hand for the faithful I believe in eternal security in Christ. The key part is in Christ. Scripture talks about abide in Christ or else the vines will be pruned away and burned up.
Scripture also talks about how even the Israelites who saw and believed God after parting the red sea but by the time it came to enter the promise land or promise rest they was not permitted to enter due to sin and disobedience. This reference is found in Hebrews.
Scripture also puts dire warnings to the early churches to protect themselves from false teachers that will lead them astray. For example Paul was warning Ephesus to fight the spiritual warfare of evil but yet in Revelation the church of Ephesus had fallen far enough away to be listed as a dire warning to all future churches. Revelation 2
Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
7 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
Paul even speaks on disciplining his body to constantly make sure he wouldn't be disqualified
But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
Or Paul also speaking on running the race with perseverance
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.
Also to the Church in Smyrna Revelation 2:
8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.
9 “‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Everything involves the free will relationship of surrendering ones life out of faith and belief in God. And in faithfulness and perseverance we hold on to the hope and promise of the one who is always faithful and whose promises are always true that for the believers we are saved in Christ and Christ alone.
Early church fathers:
“We ought therefore, brethren, carefully to inquire concerning our salvation. Otherwise, the wicked one, having made his entrance by deceit, may hurl us forth from our life.” ~ Barnabas (c. 70-130)
“That eternal fire has been prepared for him as he apostatized from God of his own free-will, and likewise for all who unrepentant continue in the apostasy, he now blasphemes, by means of such men, the Lord who brings judgment [upon him] as being already condemned, and imputes the guilt of his apostasy to his Maker, not to his own voluntary disposition.” (Justin Martyr, fragment in Irenaeus’ Against Heresies, 5:26:1, A.D.156)
“God had foreseen… that faith – even after baptism – would be endangered. He saw that most persons – after obtaining salvation – would be lost again, by soiling the wedding dress, by failing to provide oil for their torches.” ~ Tertullian (c. 213)
Apostasy warning
1 Timothy 4:1 English Standard Version (ESV)
Some Will Depart from the Faith
4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
All in all there are many more scriptures. But by logical reasoning we understand that one wouldn't need to constantly warn the church and believers to guard themselves from false teachers or to remain faithful if God was forcing believers to remain faithful unto the end. Or to say remain faithful in scripture is actually a deceiving message if God is the one who does the persevering in the believers.
On the other hand for the faithful I believe in eternal security in Christ. The key part is in Christ. Scripture talks about abide in Christ or else the vines will be pruned away and burned up.
Scripture also talks about how even the Israelites who saw and believed God after parting the red sea but by the time it came to enter the promise land or promise rest they was not permitted to enter due to sin and disobedience. This reference is found in Hebrews.
Scripture also puts dire warnings to the early churches to protect themselves from false teachers that will lead them astray. For example Paul was warning Ephesus to fight the spiritual warfare of evil but yet in Revelation the church of Ephesus had fallen far enough away to be listed as a dire warning to all future churches. Revelation 2
Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
7 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
Paul even speaks on disciplining his body to constantly make sure he wouldn't be disqualified
But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
Or Paul also speaking on running the race with perseverance
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.
Also to the Church in Smyrna Revelation 2:
8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.
9 “‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Everything involves the free will relationship of surrendering ones life out of faith and belief in God. And in faithfulness and perseverance we hold on to the hope and promise of the one who is always faithful and whose promises are always true that for the believers we are saved in Christ and Christ alone.
Early church fathers:
“We ought therefore, brethren, carefully to inquire concerning our salvation. Otherwise, the wicked one, having made his entrance by deceit, may hurl us forth from our life.” ~ Barnabas (c. 70-130)
“That eternal fire has been prepared for him as he apostatized from God of his own free-will, and likewise for all who unrepentant continue in the apostasy, he now blasphemes, by means of such men, the Lord who brings judgment [upon him] as being already condemned, and imputes the guilt of his apostasy to his Maker, not to his own voluntary disposition.” (Justin Martyr, fragment in Irenaeus’ Against Heresies, 5:26:1, A.D.156)
“God had foreseen… that faith – even after baptism – would be endangered. He saw that most persons – after obtaining salvation – would be lost again, by soiling the wedding dress, by failing to provide oil for their torches.” ~ Tertullian (c. 213)
Apostasy warning
1 Timothy 4:1 English Standard Version (ESV)
Some Will Depart from the Faith
4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
All in all there are many more scriptures. But by logical reasoning we understand that one wouldn't need to constantly warn the church and believers to guard themselves from false teachers or to remain faithful if God was forcing believers to remain faithful unto the end. Or to say remain faithful in scripture is actually a deceiving message if God is the one who does the persevering in the believers.
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The key words 'if' and 'hold' would change that. 'Hold' in this context implies duration, not for an instance or moment. And the word 'if' is obviously conditional.
Thus, the proper reading would be, if you hold on to my teaching for the duration required (up to one's death), then the promise is yours.
Thus, the proper reading would be, if you hold on to my teaching for the duration required (up to one's death), then the promise is yours.
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No, it's not scriptural. For any alleged scripture that appears to support it, is merely speaking of the potential promise and gift, and the support that they will receive from God to those who persevere in prayer, sincerity and truth.
There are too many verses to cite that express the requirement on the believer's part, to remain in the faith at the risk of rejection. RoughSoul did a great job at getting the main ones (thank you)!
There are too many verses to cite that express the requirement on the believer's part, to remain in the faith at the risk of rejection. RoughSoul did a great job at getting the main ones (thank you)!
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L
To everyone except the one who later denies Christ. At that point I wonder if he ever actually believed. I think some folks get swept along by emotions or the environment of the church but never actually believe, and then later begin to have actual self realization and figure out that they never believed and walk away. Especially in the more charismatic churches, they have a way of sweeping you up and along with. Only to find later that you were just caught in the hype.
2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
It is the height of folly to believe that anything relative to our salvation is dependent upon us. We could never attain salvation nor can we preserve our salvation. We are prisoners of Christ which is far preferable to being a prisoner of sin.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
It is the height of folly to believe that anything relative to our salvation is dependent upon us. We could never attain salvation nor can we preserve our salvation. We are prisoners of Christ which is far preferable to being a prisoner of sin.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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C
So the question has changed to when does death happen
when does this take place
rom 6: 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
is this now ?
or after we pass ?
john 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
is this now ?
or is it after we pass
how you answer these are how you look at John 8
for me i have been given a new heart and a new spirit
so is it the death of the flesh or the death of the old man that died on the cross with Jesus
blessing by the way
thx for your answer
when does this take place
rom 6: 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
is this now ?
or after we pass ?
john 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
is this now ?
or is it after we pass
how you answer these are how you look at John 8
for me i have been given a new heart and a new spirit
so is it the death of the flesh or the death of the old man that died on the cross with Jesus
blessing by the way
thx for your answer
L
Jesus' death,burial and resurrection purchased a redemptive way for fallen sinful man to have fellowship with God,the Father!
That is freely given to "WHOSOEVER will"!
It is a one time event in the life of the believer!
Then it is about being born again,made a new creature crucifying the flesh and putting on His righteousness!
The word of God tells us HOW to walk in the implementation of His word!
Whether some like it or not it is a race to the finish....dont be sidelined by mans doctrine!
Again if a man doesn't "work",neither shall he eat.......
He that ENDURES TO THE END,shall be saved!
Do not be led into the ditch by the many theologies,man made doctrines,words that ease the convictions of the Holy Ghost or anything but the word of God under His leadership!
Did you have to DO actions to commit sin............?
That is freely given to "WHOSOEVER will"!
It is a one time event in the life of the believer!
Then it is about being born again,made a new creature crucifying the flesh and putting on His righteousness!
The word of God tells us HOW to walk in the implementation of His word!
Whether some like it or not it is a race to the finish....dont be sidelined by mans doctrine!
Again if a man doesn't "work",neither shall he eat.......
He that ENDURES TO THE END,shall be saved!
Do not be led into the ditch by the many theologies,man made doctrines,words that ease the convictions of the Holy Ghost or anything but the word of God under His leadership!
Did you have to DO actions to commit sin............?
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Many people are confused about God's promises. The reason some scriptures talk of God's promises as if 'now' is:
2 Cor 1:19For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was proclaimed among you by me and Silvanus and Timothy, was not “Yes” and “No,” but in Him it has always been “Yes.” 20For all the promises of God are “Yes” in Christ. And so through Him, our “Amen” is spoken to the glory of God.
True, God's promises are yes/ assured BUT don;t deceive yourselves:
Heb 10:36 You need to persevere, so that after you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised.
Basically:
Rom 2:7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life.
2 Cor 1:19For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was proclaimed among you by me and Silvanus and Timothy, was not “Yes” and “No,” but in Him it has always been “Yes.” 20For all the promises of God are “Yes” in Christ. And so through Him, our “Amen” is spoken to the glory of God.
True, God's promises are yes/ assured BUT don;t deceive yourselves:
Heb 10:36 You need to persevere, so that after you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised.
Basically:
Rom 2:7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life.
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Just a quick read through the New Testament reveals there is always a condition. We know a condition by the usage of the word IF
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
And many more. Do not tell me about how its descriptive....
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
And many more. Do not tell me about how its descriptive....
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We are made secure not only by the finished work of Christ in the Cross, but also in the present continual work of Christ as our Living Intercessor/High Priest. This is not a licence to be lax in our walk, neither is it maintained by what we do. It is God that saves us and God that keeps us by Grace/Power through faith.
I like the illustration John Bunyun used in Pilgrim's Progress. Christian saw a fire beside a wall, and a man was constantly throwing water on the fire trying to put it out, but it kept burning. When he got to the other side of the wall, he found out why. Another man was continually pouring oil on the fire. The Interpreter explained that this was on the one side, satan trying to put out the burning faith of the Christian, but he fails, because Jesus is constantly pouring oil on the fire to keep it burning. This is how I see that God preserves us.
Not by our own oil (strength/fuel) but by the oil HE SUPPLIES.
If your fire has gone out or is going out, seek the one with the oil. Jesus.
I like the illustration John Bunyun used in Pilgrim's Progress. Christian saw a fire beside a wall, and a man was constantly throwing water on the fire trying to put it out, but it kept burning. When he got to the other side of the wall, he found out why. Another man was continually pouring oil on the fire. The Interpreter explained that this was on the one side, satan trying to put out the burning faith of the Christian, but he fails, because Jesus is constantly pouring oil on the fire to keep it burning. This is how I see that God preserves us.
Not by our own oil (strength/fuel) but by the oil HE SUPPLIES.
If your fire has gone out or is going out, seek the one with the oil. Jesus.
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