Not By Works

[Guojing]

Something I agree with.....imagine that!

Well, as long as we are strictly discussing Paul's epistles, we have the same understanding.

 

[Judges1318]

*Once again, in Hebrews 3:14, we read - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

The person who is persevering in his faith is partaking of Christ now and is saved now.
The argument from scripture I'm defending is that is exactly what they have to do to be saved now and in the future.
Even you believe that. It's just that you are sure there is no other option available to them but to believe and keep believing. I say there is. The believer can go back to not trusting in Christ. The Galatians did. Paul called them out on it.

*Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. Not temporarily believed then later stopped believing.

How does the emboldened part mean they never believed before? Are you reading the passage with bias and seeing the words 'did not believe' and instantly thinking to yourself 'oh, that means they never believed', or am I missing something in the passage that says that all of those who did not believe never believed?

My argument is the person who does not believe today may or may not have ever believed before. But it doesn't really matter anyway since the outcome is the same for the person who never believed and the person who stopped believing. The point is, they do not believe 'now', so they are not saved 'now'. Even you agree they are not saved 'now'. It's just that you find it important to say they never believed.

Christ's continuous ministry is no longer applied and efficacious to the believer who departs from God in unbelief and doesn't want to come back. Believing is what gives people access to Christ's ongoing intercession in heaven for them. If you stop believing in Christ for justification, you lose access to his ongoing intercessory ministry for you. Paul says He becomes of no effect to you. That's what he said to the Galatians who turned away from Christ in unbelief.

Not a word about losing salvation, but you are free to believe as you wish.

Look at it:

Hebrews 10:23
23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful

Now compare alongside to this:

Hebrews 3:12-14
12Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end

I was hoping you would catch that connection in my post. You can see 'holding fast' is in fact about the matter of salvation. You yourself just pointed that out above about vs.14. Your argument being that genuine believers do, and always will hold fast in faith. Even if you want to insist all real believers will without question hold fast in belief, that still makes 'holding fast' required to be saved. But so many are sure you do not have to hold fast in faith to be remain saved. You should at least be setting these other once saved always saved people straight about that point.

The talents represent monetary value and are distibuted according to ability (vs. 15). The requirement is to invest in Christ. The first two servants deposited their money with the bankers (Matthew 25:27) but the third servant buried his money in the ground (vs. 25). The third servant had been given a talent according to his ability and the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance, but chose to reject it.

Also, the fact that the latter man in this parable is called "wicked" and "slothful" and an "unprofitable servant" (Matthew 25:30) who is cast out into outer darkness indicates that he was not a true disciple of the master. The idea of this parable is that all true believers will produce fruit in varying degress. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23). Those who produce no results are not truly converted.

This man's characterization of the master maligns him as "reaping and gathering" what he had no right to claim as his own. This wicked, lazy servant does not represent a genuine believer as it's obvious that he had no true knowledge of the master. Two of these servants were children of God, but not the third. Children of God are not cast out into outer darkness. The fact that this man is called a "servant" does not necessarily mean that he was saved.

*The Jews were called the Lord’s servants, but they were not all saved. Isaiah 43:10 - "You are My witnesses, says the Lord," And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.

*Leviticus 25:55 - For the children of Israel are servants to Me; they are My servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God. Yet God later destroyed those who did not believe. (Jude 1:5)

I did not suggest in any way shape or form that the one talent slave/servant was once saved but now is not. There's no indication that he ever believed in and served the Master. I don't recall ever using this passage to defend against once saved always saved.

I did talk about how putting the talent 'in the bank' and letting them bring the increase to it illustrates how evangelism is actually the very least thing you can do with the knowledge of the kingdom. It's far greater and more beneficial for you yourself to bring increase to the knowledge of Christ you have received in your own life.

Christ warns us of the MANY who will have ministry works, but no personal works of obedience and will think those ministry works somehow mean they have a relationship with Him and can enter the kingdom, but Christ will turn them away and say he never knew them. And, of course, there's the source of the 'never knew you' argument in once saved always saved. But it's only one half of the argument. We see in scripture that God did know the Galatians, yet they turned away from Christ in unbelief and were warned of losing the benefit of Christ in justification. So, even people who God did know can fall under the same condemnation as those who God never knew.

 

[dcontroversal]

Well, as long as we are strictly discussing Paul's epistles, we have the same understanding.

The bible does not contradict itself....this TRUTH rings true from front to back, for both Jews and Gentiles alike!

 

[Judges1318]

so is this a picture of God reneging His gift

Yes, this is a picture of God reneging on the free gift.
Jesus plainly said the King forgave the servant (vs.27). The King himself even says he forgave the servant (vs.32).
And Jesus said this is how it is in the kingdom (vs.23,35).

23“For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24“When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25“But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. 26“So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ 27“And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28“But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ 29“So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30“But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31“So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32“Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34“And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35“My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.” - Matthew 18:23-35

it is not that he was ignorant of having his own debt canceled - it is that this mercy never entered his heart to be reciprocally poured out to those who owed him debts of their own.

if i have no mercy in my heart, have i received mercy and then changed my own heart to spew it back out again? or did i never truly receive mercy in my heart, but only the facsimile of it in my flesh?

He was ignorant of the fact that he was being released from the debt, not just being given time to pay it back, for he pleads, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything." (vs.26). He thought he was just being given time to repay the debt.

And it was because of this ignorance in realizing the debt was thrown out altogether not put off to pay back later that stymied the realization of the mercy he had received. And some may claim that means he was never really saved and so this really isn't a proof that the free gift can be taken back, but the story itself plainly says the servant really was forgiven. It says it twice.

interesting that this servant wasn't put to death, but into prison.

Maybe because being sent to prison is a picture of the second death?

in order to pay his debt, the sum must be collected from elsewhere

And that's the point.
The amount owed is so large it can never be paid back.
The only way to get rid of that large of a debt is to have it forgiven outright.
He'll be in prison a LONG time. Forever, in fact. ...If he insists on paying it back himself and requiring everyone else to pay their debts back too.

 

[Guojing]

The bible does not contradict itself....this TRUTH rings true from front to back, for both Jews and Gentiles alike!

True, but different people will have different interpretations of what the Bible is actually saying.

Those interpretations may contradict.

 

[Judges1318]

Peter says whoever has suffered in their flesh is done with sin.

is this the same?

Sure, I have no problem with that.
But, I, myself, even when I was less done with sin than I am now, still hated sin and was not of the mindset of this world. And so I longed for his appearing even then.

 

[calibob]

◄ 1 Peter 1:3 ►

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
NASB co; Biblehub​

 

[VCO]

Are you going to be happy when you learn you are wrong and see that we have salvation or are you going to be angry when you learn you are wrong and see that we have salvation?

No you are calling your

I believe sound doctrine of Jesus Christ 100%; it is you who is calling sound doctrine manure.

No, you are the one that Calls unsound Doctrine to be of Jesus Christ, when all it is a False Doctrine of your False Teacher.

Sad, VERY Sad!

 

[VCO]

I do not like people calling our Lord's doctrine manure.

No, we do not like people who use that kind of language, whether that are only False Christians or VERY IMMATURE CHRISTIANS.

Matthew 7:20 (NJB)
20 I repeat, you will be able to tell them by their fruits.

 

[calibob]

No, we do not like people who use that kind of language, whether that are only False Christians or VERY IMMATURE CHRISTIANS.

Matthew 7:20 (NJB)
20 I repeat, you will be able to tell them by their fruits.

Yes the first fruit is love and the first commandment from Jesus is love.
Matthew 22:36-40 New International Version (NIV) 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so also you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another.”…
Berean Study Bible

 

[Discern]

Love that song by Keith Green

Keith Green was one of a kind. I have been truly blessed by his music and words.

 

[EleventhHour]

Keith Green was one of a kind. I have been truly blessed by his music and words.

Absolutely agree.... Genuine heartfelt lyrics and music......so passionate for the gospel!

 

[posthuman]

He was ignorant of the fact that he was being released from the debt, not just being given time to pay it back, for he pleads, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything." (vs.26). He thought he was just being given time to repay the debt.

And it was because of this ignorance in realizing the debt was thrown out altogether not put off to pay back later that stymied the realization of the mercy he had received. And some may claim that means he was never really saved and so this really isn't a proof that the free gift can be taken back, but the story itself plainly says the servant really was forgiven. It says it twice.

it wasn't until after he asked for patience and promised to fully repay that his Master took pity and forgave his entire debt. so he wasn't ignorant of it; it hadn't yet occurred.
then it occurred, and then he did not treat others in kind.
in v.33 his Master admonishes him saying he ought to have shown the same mercy that he received - his Master certainly didn't consider him to have been harsh with his debtor out of ignorance; rather, as though he despised the mercy he received.

 

[posthuman]

And that's the point.
The amount owed is so large it can never be paid back.
The only way to get rid of that large of a debt is to have it forgiven outright.
He'll be in prison a LONG time. Forever, in fact. ...If he insists on paying it back himself and requiring everyone else to pay their debts back too.

yes that is the point, i think -- freely we were given; freely give. freely given is the only way it was possible we should receive.
if the debt could never be repaid, what was this servant thinking, saying have patience, i will repay?
was that wrong? should he have asked for mercy, not patience?
at any rate while he is standing there before his Creditor, there is no way he can ever even attempt to pay unless he is released. he doesn't have the means to pay, or either it would not still be a debt outstanding, or instead of 'have patience, i will repay' he would have said, 'look, here is what i owe; it is yours' -- but the Master took pity and released him.
as reward because he answered well? or out of compassion, knowing the debt was too great?

who is this person that stands before Him saying, 'i will repay, just give me more time' ?
the Pharisees, Sadducees, Herodians & all they represent & typify?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We all take chances in life. To trust in Jesus for salvation may feel like taking a chance. To trust God to provide for ones needs may feel like a step of faith. Often times people may look to themselves, their good works instead of leaning on Jesus. Or one may look to their themselves such as their knowledge, or pedigree or something else instead of looking to Jesus. We all take chances in life. You seem to be depending on having the correct doctrine. This is still taking a chance. Psalm 118:8( KJV) says " It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man."

This is why most will not take that step of faith.

they want something they can see and touch.

it takes great faith to trust in things not seen

 

[mailmandan]

The person who is persevering in his faith is partaking of Christ now and is saved now....How does the emboldened part mean they never believed before?....You can see 'holding fast' is in fact about the matter of salvation. You yourself just pointed that out above about vs.14. Your argument being that genuine believers do, and always will hold fast in faith etc..

I already thoroughly made my points in posts #115,341; #115,585 & #115,680 in regards to Hebrews 3, Hebrews 10 and Jude 1:5. If you are still convinced otherwise, then I cannot help you any further, but you will never convince me otherwise. You can speculate all you want and try to change did not believe in Jude 1:5 to "previously believed, but don't believe anymore" all you want, but I just take it for what it says, DID NOT BELIEVE. I've heard certain people in the NOSAS camp also try to change "I NEVER knew you" in Matthew 7:23 into "I once knew you, but don't know you anymore" in order to accommodate NOSAS, but I'm not buying that either.

I did not suggest in any way shape or form that the one talent slave/servant was once saved but now is not.

I'm actually shocked to hear you say this! I typically hear those in the NOSAS camp say the one talent "servant" was saved because he was called a "servant," but then he lost his salvation because he did nothing.

There's no indication that he ever believed in and served the Master. I don't recall ever using this passage to defend against once saved always saved.

We actually agree that there is no indication that he ever believed in and served the Master.

I did talk about how putting the talent 'in the bank' and letting them bring the increase to it illustrates how evangelism is actually the very least thing you can do with the knowledge of the kingdom. It's far greater and more beneficial for you yourself to bring increase to the knowledge of Christ you have received in your own life.

As I mentioned before. The third servant had been given a talent according to his ability and the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance, but chose to reject it by burying his talent in the ground.

Christ warns us of the MANY who will have ministry works, but no personal works of obedience and will think those ministry works somehow mean they have a relationship with Him and can enter the kingdom, but Christ will turn them away and say he never knew them.

Works of obedience flow from a relationship with Jesus Christ out of faith. Now in regards to Matthew 7:21-23, I will never forget, prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I read Matthew 7:22 and thought to myself, WOW! These many people accomplished ALL OF THAT, "prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and did many wonderful works" but that still was not "GOOD ENOUGH?" Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be "good enough?" Such is the mindset of someone who believes that obtaining/and or/maintaining salvation is based on works.

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. *John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their "attempted external obedience" (apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ) was stained with sin. *Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people in Matthew 7:22-23 were not true converts. *Without faith it's impossible to please God no matter how many alleged wonderful works that these many people set out to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation based on works. This is why Jesus referred to these many people as "workers of iniquity." God does not see the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) in unbelievers, but He see's all of their sins which remain and have not been washed away by the blood of Christ.

And, of course, there's the source of the 'never knew you' argument in once saved always saved.

"I NEVER knew you" in Matthew 7:23 settles the argument for me that these many people were NEVER saved.

But it's only one half of the argument.

Here we go again. Fear and bondage to IN-security is no way to live the Christian life.

We see in scripture that God did know the Galatians, yet they turned away from Christ in unbelief and were warned of losing the benefit of Christ in justification. So, even people who God did know can fall under the same condemnation as those who God never knew.

Temporarily getting side tracked by legalistic teachers is not the same thing as permanently turning away from Christ in unbelief. Stop jumping to conclusions. The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

 

[EleventhHour]

Not me haha 12th grade Algebra age 7....

Age 7 you say....... your first words as a baby must have been variables and integers.... instead of ma..ma and pa..pa

 

[RebuildJesussChurch]

It does not get any plainer..........Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation!

English Standard Version
he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Berean Study Bible
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Berean Literal Bible
He saved us, not by works in righteousness that we did, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

New American Standard Bible
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

King James Bible
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

And now grace and peace are mine in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. His divine power has given me everything I need for life and godliness through my knowledge of Him who called me by His own glory and goodness. Through these, He has given me His very great and precious promises, so that through them I may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. 2 Peter 1:2-4

I love what grace does! I love how salvation changes the life of those who believe. Now that we have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God the benefit we reap leads to holiness - the result of which is eternal life. Romans 6:22

Once I was alienated from God and was an enemy in my mind, as shown by my evil behavior. Col.1:21. But then the grace of God came to me and I was born again. Amen!

Take hold of the promises of God today. Take hold of His Word and abide in it as true disciples of Jesus do. Knowing the truth, they are set free.

"Bear fruits that are deserving and consistant with [your] repentance [that is conduct worthy of a heart changed, a heart abhorring sin.]" Lk.3:8a Amp. And don't just rely on wishful thinking or labels. The Master said, "Follow Me."

 

[EleventhHour]

And now grace and peace are mine in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. His divine power has given me everything I need for life and godliness through my knowledge of Him who called me by His own glory and goodness. Through these, He has given me His very great and precious promises, so that through them I may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. 2 Peter 1:2-4

I love what grace does! I love how salvation changes the life of those who believe. Now that we have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God the benefit we reap leads to holiness - the result of which is eternal life. Romans 6:22

Once I was alienated from God and was an enemy in my mind, as shown by my evil behavior. Col.1:21. But then the grace of God came to me and I was born again. Amen!

Take hold of the promises of God today. Take hold of His Word and abide in it as true disciples of Jesus do. Knowing the truth, they are set free.

"Bear fruits that are deserving and consistant with [your] repentance [that is conduct worthy of a heart changed, a heart abhorring sin.]" Lk.3:8a Amp. And don't just rely on wishful thinking or labels. The Master said, "Follow Me."

A false gospel of works will build a church that may look pristine on the outside but on the inside is the stench of self-righteousness.

I quote @dcontroversal
read this and learn....

a. A believer has done works already in BELIEVING on the one that was SENT <---the works of the Heavenly Father
b. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness

The above two truths cannot be swept under the table nor can they be embellished with more than the truth that they represent.

HOW many works PROVE salvation, can ANY WORKS prove salvation?

LOST men do MANY wonderful works in the name of JESUS every day<---the MANY that come before the throne and some MEN DIE with ONE WORK....believing on the one whom was SENT.......FAITH saves regardless of any and all work

 

[EleventhHour]

Once again.....because I know this is truth and red X against truth only emboldens me...

a. A believer has done works already in BELIEVING on the one that was SENT <---the works of the Heavenly Father
b. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness

The above two truths cannot be swept under the table nor can they be embellished with more than the truth that they represent.

HOW many works PROVE salvation, can ANY WORKS prove salvation?

LOST men do MANY wonderful works in the name of JESUS every day<---the MANY that come before the throne and some MEN DIE with ONE WORK....believing on the one whom was SENT.......FAITH saves regardless of any and all work[/QUOTE]