Is the doctrine of limited atonement biblical?

[SUNDOWNSAM]

the point as with most Calvinists here (who seem to be of the very hard core variety) is to cherry pick verses, twist what is said and try to lead you into a personal argument

failing that, you might be told that they are not a Calvinist and are simply believing what scripture states...while faithfully following Calvin's teaching

the point is often missed on purpose also in order to get personal and then you will be asked why you are so angry or some such thing which is irritating because you are not actually angry, but are rather frustrated or perplexed or even confused as to why nothing you say is dealt with in the way you said it

your point will never ever be considered so don't get too bogged down

we are not all like that

you will also be asked if you are a universalist at some point and they know full well you are not

the really nasty ones here have been calmed down no doubt because of the many complaints about them using mocking terms, name calling and saying we believe in a fake god etc etc

Believe me when I say this, I have no animosity toward those who believe in the distorted view of calvinism, but yes, they deliberately do not and won't respond to the truth of God's word because the Scriptures will show them that they are without question indulging in a false doctrine. I pulled away from discussing this issue with them because they are not truthful and when they cannot respond to the Scriptures they would immediately call names or mock to avoid answering. But believe me, I am not frustrated, but it is sad that they have indulged themselves in such a false doctrine, stating that God sends to eternal damnation as he wishes.

The question I do have for them, did God cause satan to rebel against him? According to calvinism they probably believe he did.

To those who believe in the distorted view of calvinism, continue to believe in your distorted view, but this I can say, the only way you can try to substantiate your distorted view is by pulling the Scriptures out of context so that you can make it fit your own distorted view.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

do you ever pray for someone to be saved?
why do we pray for people to be saved?
what are we asking, when we pray for them?
how do we know a need to pray for this?

To answer your question, I pray that God ministers to friends of mine to bring them to the cross to see the love of God and to be strengthened by God's love for them so that they can make the decision to accept the atonement that Yeshua did on the cross and to serve God in Yeshua.

To you, if they do not accept God is because God chose to send them to eternal damnation without choice, not to mention, to you the cross has no strength to bring man to God if God chooses to damn a person.

 

[Flint321]

Believe me when I say this, I have no animosity toward those who believe in the distorted view of calvinism, but yes, they deliberately do not and won't respond to the truth of God's word because the Scriptures will show them that they are without question indulging in a false doctrine. I pulled away from discussing this issue with them because they are not truthful and when they cannot respond to the Scriptures they would immediately call names or mock to avoid answering. But believe me, I am not frustrated, but it is sad that they have indulged themselves in such a false doctrine, stating that God sends to eternal damnation as he wishes.

The question I do have for them, did God cause satan to rebel against him? According to calvinism they probably believe he did.

To those who believe in the distorted view of calvinism, continue to believe in your distorted view, but this I can say, the only way you can try to substantiate your distorted view is by pulling the Scriptures out of context so that you can make it fit your own distorted view.

Hey i would love to answer your question about Sin and God's Sovereignty, im not an expert, indeed it is a hard doctrine sometimes to understand and comprehend, but pretty much God means sin for a different reason than we do it, so we are justly accountable for our sin and it's still according to God's Sovereign will for a different purpose which is : Holy, Different, Other, according to his glory... etc...etc

Heres a simple verse: Genesis 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

The reality is Arminism is a form of idolatry inside Christianity, because it rejects God, it hates God's Sovereignty (an attribute of God).

Heres another verse:
Acts 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

 

[Flint321]

To you, if they do not accept God is because God chose to send them to eternal damnation without choice, not to mention, to you the cross has no strength to bring man to God if God chooses to damn a person.

What you say here is against what the bible teaches.... who is right? God or you?

1st Peter 8 “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

It then goes on to say in next verse, But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation..............etc

The bible declares that people are destined to hell, being justly damned into the eternal fire, others are chosen in grace.

This salvation then comes to the elect in time, through the gospel, and they alone are destined to OBEY the word, aka repent and believe the gospel and not disobey the word, being not destined for damnation, but grace.

You need to become comfortable with these truths because this is the true Holy and Sovereign God.

 

[Flint321]

If you need more proof, then take an honest look at Romans 9 and repent of your idolatry.

heres a good sermon on election for those interested:

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

Thanks for taking the time to make these informative comments. I think some of our differences is the way we understand the foreknowledge of God and the capabilities of the natural man, before he has been regenerated and given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. What God saw by his foreknowledge was Romans 3:10-11-12, As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. This is the condition of mankind (1 Cor 2:14) before God regenerates them (Eph 2) While they were yet dead (spiritually and could not discern the things of the Spirit) God quickened them together with Christ by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and after that transformation they were able to discern the things of the Spirit and capable of confessing and repenting. Salvation according to Greek means "a deliverance". There is an eternal deliverance and there are many deliverances we receive here in time. After the natural man has been regenerated, there is a deliverance (salvation here in time) when the new born babe in Christ becomes knowledgeable of the gospel through the hearing of the word by the revelation of the Holy Spirit. In this manner, God gets all of the glory for man's eternal salvation, instead of man getting the glory by his believing, confessing and repenting.

---------------------------

In answer Romans 3: 10,11,12, The Scriptures is correct that there is none righteous, no, not one: there is none that understands, and there is none that seeks God. For this reason God has to reach out just like when he reached out to Abraham, then Moses, given man the law to do that with is right before God and Zachariah and Elizabeth were examples, they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless, which is what the Scriptures tell us. So, they were seeking God, walking in a righteous manner from God because God established laws that they were obedience to, they decided to put their trust I God, just like Abraham was called and responded. God calls and man response, all through the Scriptures we can see this.

Yes, the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God and verse 10 clearly states that God reveals by his Spirit, but what we are talking about is a decision that one makes in serving God. God reveals to one the truth of the Gospel, what Yeshua did for mankind on the cross and offering the gift of salvation, but man makes the decisions, but what is most important in man's decision is for man not to resist the conviction that the Spirit of God brings upon them.

So, if man accepts the atonement that Yeshua did on the cross, making the decision to serve God, he gives God the glory for saving him through faith, glorifying and thanking God that the Spirit of God and Truth ministered to them the Gospel of Salvation, strengthening them to make the decision to serve God that ultimately will bring the Glory to God. If you read II Kings 17, when I read several times last week because it was so much there to absorb, you can see that God told them many things he did for them and in all they turned against God, deliberately provoking God to anger and prior to God removing them out of his sight they decided to rebel against God so that they can serve gods made by the hands of man, gods who do not exist.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

SUNDOWNSAM, Do you care to comment on my post #125? You don't have to, if that is your desire, but I would be interested in your comments. I like your tone in discussing the scriptures and think that you are diligent in your studies and are knowledgeable of the scriptures.

I apologize for not answering, I was responding to one of you statements, I went back to read it and responded accordingly, but I will also post it below...

In answer Romans 3: 10,11,12, The Scriptures is correct that there is none righteous, no, not one: there is none that understands, and there is none that seeks God. For this reason God has to reach out just like when he reached out to Abraham, then Moses, given man the law to do that with is right before God and Zachariah and Elizabeth were examples, they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless, which is what the Scriptures tell us. So, they were seeking God, walking in a righteous manner from God because God established laws that they were obedience to, they decided to put their trust I God, just like Abraham was called and responded. God calls and man response, all through the Scriptures we can see this.

Yes, the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God and verse 10 clearly states that God reveals by his Spirit, but what we are talking about is a decision that one makes in serving God. God reveals to one the truth of the Gospel, what Yeshua did for mankind on the cross and offering the gift of salvation, but man makes the decisions, but what is most important in man's decision is for man not to resist the conviction that the Spirit of God brings upon them.

So, if man accepts the atonement that Yeshua did on the cross, making the decision to serve God, he gives God the glory for saving him through faith, glorifying and thanking God that the Spirit of God and Truth ministered to them the Gospel of Salvation, strengthening them to make the decision to serve God that ultimately will bring the Glory to God. If you read II Kings 17, when I read several times last week because it was so much there to absorb, you can see that God told them many things he did for them and in all they turned against God, deliberately provoking God to anger and prior to God removing them out of his sight they decided to rebel against God so that they can serve gods made by the hands of man, gods who do not exist.

 

[Flint321]

Also ForestGreenCook is a strong Hyper-Calvinist who denies that everyone who believes and repents will be saved. He doesn't represent Calvinism and is fighting against the biblical gospel. (ive talked to him about this already)

All bible believing Calvinists believe that everyone who repents and believes will be saved, we just also acknowledge that they are elected to it.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

If you need more proof, then take an honest look at Romans 9 and repent of your idolatry.

heres a good sermon on election for those interested:

----------------------
I heard his view in the past and most likely saw the video you provided. You are following a man who believes and stated that one can take the mark of the beast and still be saved. Do you know that is a statement that he made? Many are not aware that they are putting men like john macarthur in high places, but remember that john macarthur did not die for you.

Quote the Scriptures, not men that are distorting the truth of God's word. john macarthur was rebukes by another man and what did john macarthure do? He made a joke out of it and deliberately mocking the person who rebuked him bringing laughter to his church. If my father was in the pulpit teaching true doctrine and a man came to rebuke him, my father would have rebuke him with the authority of the Scriptures, put it this way, God would have stopped that man from going on the pulpit. Many pulled away from john macarthur after that and with the statement he made on the mark of the beast.

Quote the Scriptures, don't send me videos, not to mention that when a person sends a video most likely they don't know anything about the topic. john macarthur pulls verses out of context to fit his distorted view, and this man who says you can take the mark of the beast is impressing this false doctrine so that man can go straight to eternal damnation.

 

[Flint321]

----------------------
I heard his view in the past and most likely saw the video you provided. You are following a man who believes and stated that one can take the mark of the beast and still be saved. Do you know that is a statement that he made? Many are not aware that they are putting men like john macarthur in high places, but remember that john macarthur did not die for you.

Quote the Scriptures, not men that are distorting the truth of God's word. john macarthur was rebukes by another man and what did john macarthure do? He made a joke out of it and deliberately mocking the person who rebuked him bringing laughter to his church. If my father was in the pulpit teaching true doctrine and a man came to rebuke him, my father would have rebuke him with the authority of the Scriptures, put it this way, God would have stopped that man from going on the pulpit. Many pulled away from john macarthur after that and with the statement he made on the mark of the beast.

Quote the Scriptures, don't send me videos, not to mention that when a person sends a video most likely they don't know anything about the topic. john macarthur pulls verses out of context to fit his distorted view, and this man who says you can take the mark of the beast is impressing this false doctrine so that man can go straight to eternal damnation.

Thanks, i had no idea about the mark of the beast thing, but there is many teaches that teach election.... the same thing, its not just John Mac Arthur. That is a bad argument to make to reject election, if that's what your trying to do, its called a fallacy

I just did quote the scriptures, 4 scriptures up above, have you considered them?

Anyway, thats fair enough, what you said about the mark of the beast, but please i gave you 4 scriptures that have great weight to them, and John Macarthur is only 1 of many men that preach the biblical doctrine or what people "calvinism"

John Piper is another teacher for example, if you want i can give you a sermon on election from him, are you interested?

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

What you say here is against what the bible teaches.... who is right? God or you?

1st Peter 8 “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

It then goes on to say in next verse, But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation..............etc

The bible declares that people are destined to hell, being justly damned into the eternal fire, others are chosen in grace.

This salvation then comes to the elect in time, through the gospel, and they alone are destined to OBEY the word, aka repent and believe the gospel and not disobey the word, being not destined for damnation, but grace.

You need to become comfortable with these truths because this is the true Holy and Sovereign God.

----
This is not about me being right, this is about the Spirit of God making giving an understanding of what God made clear when he first spoke.

Do you realized that in the above you contradicted yourself, not to mention that you are have no idea what this chapter is talking about and I need not to explain it, I responded enough. The same way you send a video of john macarthur, I respectfully suggest that you go directly to him to get a respond. Start at verse 1 to 8, and I will ask you to continue reading to the end of the chapter. By the way you forgot to add the chapter, which is chapter 2.

 

[Flint321]

----
This is not about me being right, this is about the Spirit of God making giving an understanding of what God made clear when he first spoke.

Do you realized that in the above you contradicted yourself, not to mention that you are have no idea what this chapter is talking about and I need not to explain it, I responded enough. The same way you send a video of john macarthur, I respectfully suggest that you go directly to him to get a respond. Start at verse 1 to 8, and I will ask you to continue reading to the end of the chapter. By the way you forgot to add the chapter, which is chapter 2.

I think its best we just leave it, all the best in Jesus name

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

Thanks, i had no idea about the mark of the beast thing, but there is many teaches that teach election.... the same thing, its not just John Mac Arthur. That is a bad argument to make to reject election, if that's what your trying to do, its called a fallacy

I just did quote the scriptures, 4 scriptures up above, have you considered them?

Anyway, thats fair enough, what you said about the mark of the beast, but please i gave you 4 scriptures that have great weight to them, and John Macarthur is only 1 of many men that preach the biblical doctrine or what people "calvinism"


John Piper is another teacher for example, if you want i can give you a sermon on election from him, are you interested?

------------------------

Men like john macarthur and john piper have changed, not to mention that they are socializing with the wrong people. Here is a site for you, what I like about this guy he is exposing men who are not only distorting God's word, but exposing charlatans as well. This video has nothing to do with defending topics, but exposing men like john macarthur, so I am sending this for an awareness, and though I did not have to hear it from him, I saw what I like is that he elaborated more on it ... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4h08ypfrtFGdgu-OBwAUDQ

Please send me the 4 scriptures or what post I cannot find it.

 

[Flint321]

------------------------

Men like john macarthur and john piper have changed, not to mention that they are socializing with the wrong people. Here is a site for you, what I like about this guy he is exposing men who are not only distorting God's word, but exposing charlatans as well. This video has nothing to do with defending topics, but exposing men like john macarthur, so I am sending this for an awareness, and though I did not have to hear it from him, I saw what I like is that he elaborated more on it ... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4h08ypfrtFGdgu-OBwAUDQ

Please send me the 4 scriptures or what post I cannot find it.

Im taking this to PM, to avoid us taking over the thread, i will send you a pm.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

I think its best we just leave it, all the best in Jesus name

I am not being sarcastic, just pointing out that it appears that all who say God elects are also stating that men choose. God can call it as it is because he is absolutely sovereign, but man makes the decision to serve, we know that is the one that saved, but by his Spirit he brings us the Gospel of Salvation and though the love that he demonstrated we are convicted, but the question is will man yield to the Spirit of God as the he is being ministered by the Spirit of God? My hope is that after his seeing what God did on the cross he allows and yields to God's love so that he may be strengthen to make the decision to serve him. God is the one that reaches out to man because no man seeketh God, no, not one, but when God reaches out it is up to man to make the decision.

Don't know if you have a son, but did you ever try reaching out to him? Did he make the decision to hold on to the hand that was extended to him? If yes, then he made the decision, didn't to get the help, didn't he? In turn you love for him was presented before him by you extending your hand, otherwise, he probably would have done nothing.

Anyway, nice talking and make sure that you test all teaching that it is truly in agree with what God made clear when he first spoke.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

Im taking this to PM, to avoid us taking over the thread, i will send you a pm.

Okay.

 

[posthuman]

To answer your question, I pray that God ministers to friends of mine to bring them to the cross to see the love of God and to be strengthened by God's love for them so that they can make the decision to accept the atonement that Yeshua did on the cross and to serve God in Yeshua.

All those the Father gives Me will come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will never drive away.​

(John 6:37)​

​

so you pray that the Father gives them to the Son?

Quote the Scripture

i did, and i continue to.
what do you think about 1 Samuel 10, and about the bucketload of other scriptures related to it that i posted?
Luke 24:44, John 5:39 -- do you believe it?

To you, if they do not accept God is because God chose to send them to eternal damnation without choice, not to mention, to you the cross has no strength to bring man to God if God chooses to damn a person.

you also, should stop projecting what you assume i believe, and read what i have actually said. why make yourself a liar, sinning against me? i'm making every effort to answer questions you didn't even ask me, because i came here and found you complaining that others would not. are you called to hate others? strangers, even? or to love?
i've said over and over and over that we have a choice, we all do, that God doesn't desire to damn anyone.
the cross is the power of God to those who are being saved, and an unavoidable stumbling stone to those who hate Him, which will crush them to powder with no remedy.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

All those the Father gives Me will come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will never drive away.​

(John 6:37)​

​

so you pray that the Father gives them to the Son?



i did, and i continue to.
what do you think about 1 Samuel 10, and about the bucketload of other scriptures related to it that i posted?
Luke 24:44, John 5:39 -- do you believe it?



you also, should stop projecting what you assume i believe, and read what i have actually said. why make yourself a liar, sinning against me? i'm making every effort to answer questions you didn't even ask me, because i came here and found you complaining that others would not. are you called to hate others? strangers, even? or to love?
i've said over and over and over that we have a choice, we all do, that God doesn't desire to damn anyone.
the cross is the power of God to those who are being saved, and an unavoidable stumbling stone to those who hate Him, which will crush them to powder with no remedy.

You appear to have a problem with comprehension and I will not bother responding to you for the simple reason that you are only in this discussion to give you distorted view, not to mention, you pull verses out of context trying to defend your distorted view, which is all you try to do. I am wasting my time with you, read everything I wrote to all who I responded to I am sure my response to your question will be there. You are no different then unitedwithchrist who also post to impress, but who distorts the truth of God's word, what God made clear when he first spoke. I told him to not bother responding to anything I say, I am not impressed with what he thinks he knows and I will tell you the same, don't bother responding to my comments and just continue to believe that God condemns to eternal damnation as he pleases.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

they are angry now

right now

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

Just want to make myself clear, I do not believe in the calvinism doctrine and neither do I believe in the arminism doctrine, what is important to me is that one speaks what God made clear when he first spoke and for one to have a personal relationship with God in Yeshua.

With the poster you sent, my question is that in the calvinism doctrine if God elects that means they cannot lose their salvation and if that is the case why then are they tempted by satan?