What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

[Melach]

That's been Debunked already.

where has it been debunked? where is the proof?

 

[TooFastTurtle]

The alleged version of the Margaret McDonald prophecy I read did not seem to be talking about a pre-trib rapture at all. Darby was a cessationists. There may have been some interaction between Darby and Irving at...I can't remember of the estate where they held the end-times discussions back in the 1800's in England.

The Catholic Apostolic Church movements idea of the millinneum, from what I read, is quite different from dispensationalism.

Thank you for your honesty. You have actually read the Mcdonald prophecy, many people just parrot what they heard from someone that Darby got the rapture from McDonald's visions. If you read it, it is not pre-trib as you said.

Darby did not invent the pre-trib rapture, nor did Scofield. In fact I disagree with the Scofield Bible, where? Not so much in any particular doctrine since I have never read a Scofield Bible and I do not know what the man believed. I am just on principle against ALL commentaries that are attached into the Bible. Because many times what happens is people forget which part was commentary and which part was the actual words of Scripture and they equate the two.

If I would read what Scofield thought perhaps I would agree with him, perhaps not. I just believe the best way to come to truth is through Scriptures being revealed to us by the Holy Spirit, not some church father in the past or Darby or Bible commentary or some modern day Bible teacher. Those are all nice things to have, but they are not the way to approach this topic, I believe.

 

[dcontroversal]

yes! everyone always says 144 000 jewish evangelists but it doesnt say that anywhere. its made up where does it say anything about evangelism

It doesn't say it anywhere...yet it is peddled by many as factual!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Your whole point is the rapture will occur when Christ returns "PRIOR" to the seven year period of the great tribulation, that's it.

I define the phrase "the GREAT tribulation" (as the Bible itself does) as the SECOND HALF of the "7-yrs" not the ENTIRE "7-yrs" as you are suggesting.

So, we read the following at John 6:39, 40, 44, and vs54 which all say the same thing, "I Myself will rasie him up on THE LAST DAY." How do you prove that your pretrib rapture contention is "BEFORE" the last day? It has already be proved when the last day is by what Jesus stated at Matthew 24:3 when the disciples (three of the disciples that is) said to Jesus, "what will be the sign of Your coming, and the end of the age/world.?

You are defining "the Last Day" as "a singular 24-hr day"; I am not.

I believe "the Last Day" is the "third day" in the Hosea 5:15-6:3 passage; and the "sabbatismos" of the Heb4:9 passage (the DAY of REST, aka the MK … and "THAT DAY" *starts* the evening before, at SUNDOWN [the split-second we are removed, and thereafter the FIRST SEAL/INITIAL birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3] commences to unfold upon the earth [with its MAN OF SIN and ALL he will DO over the course of SEVEN YEARS])

Now, (and speaking of Matthew 24) what is your opinion of starting at vs40-41? "There shall be two men in the field, one will be taken, and one will be left?" vs41, "Two women will be grinding etc. I almost forgot to tell you that it was taught people would mysteriously instantly disappear causing other to die from plane crashes etc. Then even made movies of this kind of thing happening. Since you don't personally believe it then why was this such a popular belief among pretrib scholars?

The "taken" and "left" passages refer to the time of His Second Coming to the earth (NOT at our Rapture), per context. The ones "taken" were "taken away in judgment," and the ones "left" were "left to populate the earth, in their mortal bodies" (I already pointed out Daniel 2:35 compared with Genesis 9:1... "[actively] FILL/FILLED the [whole] EARTH")

 

[dcontroversal]

Abel was a Christian? Abel placed his trust in the resurrected Jesus Christ? Not. Abel had faith in God but not the cross of Christ. The Church began after the resurrection.

False.....his faith was in the BLOOD....and he KNEW OF THE REDEEMER as evidenced by Genesis 3:15......man...you guys really devalue the thread of grace, O.T. prophecies of Christ and faith....

In the VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME......go translate what Eve said when she had Cain....even she understood the prophetic utterance of Genesis 3:15......

 

[dcontroversal]

Who are they then? What is their purpose?

Study EVERY word applied to them and every location they arw mentioned....do the math I.E. reason out who they are and their purpose and WHAT they are called!

 

[John146]

False.....his faith was in the BLOOD....and he KNEW OF THE REDEEMER as evidenced by Genesis 3:15......man...you guys really devalue the thread of grace, O.T. prophecies of Christ and faith....

In the VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME......go translate what Eve said when she had Cain....even she understood the prophetic utterance of Genesis 3:15......

Are you saying Abel placed his faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ for his sins? They knew of one promised would bruise the head of Satan, but the cross? Really?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

yes! everyone always says 144 000 jewish evangelists but it doesnt say that anywhere. its made up where does it say anything about evangelism

If you've been following what I've put about "SEQUENCE/CHRONOLOGY," then you can see that Matthew 24:14 [see that verse] is what WILL be taking place IN/DURING the trib [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"]... and then compare that verse with Rev7:9,14 (which passage is set incontradistinction to "the 144,000" in the earlier part of that chpt).

Then see also the very brief excerpt I put, about the study [long ago, somewhere] how "Paul" is a "type" of the FUTURE "144,000" (the study showed their many points of similarity... I didn't put the actual "study" in a recent post/diff thread, just a few points regarding it).

Note also that Daniel 12:1-4,10 is not speaking of a "physical/bodily resurrection [of formerly deceased persons]," but is speaking of "Israel coming up out of the graveyard of nations, WHERE SCATTERED [i.e. 'sown unto the earth' - Hos2:23a (not b, re: the Gentiles)/Hos1:10/Rom9:26 (not 9:25 re: the Gentiles)]"... and that Dan12 passage shows what THEY [/the *WISE* of ISRAEL] go on TO DO: "turn many to righteousness"!

[I've provided parallel passages to these ^ ]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Thank you for your honesty. You have actually read the Mcdonald prophecy, many people just parrot what they heard from someone that Darby got the rapture from McDonald's visions. If you read it, it is not pre-trib as you said.

Good post. Yes. Agreed. Glad we all agree here.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Oh, and I meant to say, the ONLY reason I even brought up "Irving" was b/c bluto mentioned the phrase "SECRET RAPTURE," which was originated by Irving, an "Historicist," not a "pre-trib adherent" [... NOT to get into a discussion about MMcD or Irving himself, or others... and all those other silly repeated fables ]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

If you've been following what I've put about "SEQUENCE/CHRONOLOGY," then you can see that Matthew 24:14 [see that verse] is what WILL be taking place IN/DURING the trib [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"]... and then compare that verse with Rev7:9,14 (which passage is set incontradistinction to "the 144,000" in the earlier part of that chpt).
Then see also the very brief excerpt I put, about the study [long ago, somewhere] how "Paul" is a "type" of the FUTURE "144,000" (the study showed their many points of similarity... I didn't put the actual "study" in a recent post/diff thread, just a few points regarding it).

If you're interested about it ^ at all, see my 4 posts on Page 31 at the following link:

[Posts #609, #611, and esp #616 and #618 (<--regarding the bolded portion ^ in my above-quoted post ^ )]

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/which-gospel.188731/page-31

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ ALONG with that, plz see what I'd put in Post #310 of THIS [present] thread, about "the 144,000":

and that "the 144,000" are said to be "firstfruit" (of a "harvest"), NOTING the TWO DISTINCT mentions of "firstfruit" in Lev23, and which I've shown in past posts that the wording in Rev14:4 parallels the wording of the SECOND of these TWO mentions of "firstfruit" in Lev23 [v.17] (associated with the "WHEAT harvest"), where it also says, the "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" [that ain't US--see 1Cor5:7 "ye are UNleavened" stated factually]

[note also the phrase "a KIND of firstfruit, said in James]

[see that post, coz there's a little more, there]

 

[bluto]

2Th1:7 just says, "ye who are troubled REST/REPOSE with us IN THE REVELATION of Jesus Christ from heaven with His mighty angels"...

the text does not have the words "WHEN," nor "you WILL RECEIVE [rest when]," nor "He WILL GIVE [rest when]"... but is simply stated factually, "ye who are troubled REST/REPOSE with us IN THE REVELATION OF..."

https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/1-7.htm


"the DOTL" and "IN THAT DAY" (whenever used in close proximity / same contexts), always refers to the SAME TIME PERIOD, and thus is the case also with chpts 1 and 2, here! (where this is the proof that the "time period" spoken of [DOTL/IN THAT DAY], ARRIVES well-before Jesus Himself returns[/arrives] to the earth at Rev19/His Second Coming to the earth time-slot)

Look, I addresed this already regarding the word, "when" in one of my post to you. The word "when" does not have to be in the text because the literal meaning is, "rest with us "at/Greek "en" the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ." 2 Thess. 1:7. It means the same thing with or without the word "when."

Now, would you agree that if the pre-trib rapture were before the grat tribulation could one say this would be rest or relif? Yet, you have at 2 Thess 1;7 "at" the revelation of the Lord Jesus (with His mighty angels_ dealing out retribution to those who do not know God. (vs8). And at vs9, "these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction." The "these' in the verse are those that don't know Jesus Christ.

Then there is vs10, "when He comes to be glorified in His saints on (singular) that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed." So what does it mean "to be glorifed in His saints." It means that Jesus will be glorified and honored "AMONG" the saints.

So now we get to 2 Thess chapter 2. Paul says again, don't get shook up regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering to Him." (vs1). vs3 says, "Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come "UNLESS THE APOSTACY COMES FIRST, and the man of lawlessness is reveale, the son of destruction." This is perfectly consistent with the words of Jeus at Matthew 24:15 where Jesus tells us what to do when the Abomanation of Desolation is revealed.

And if you notice the language that Paul uses you will discover (I hope) that he is encouranging the believers to hold on to and stand firm to the traditions in which they were taught, 2 Thess. 2:15. Vs17, Comfort one another. 2 Thess 3:1-5, "Paul says pray for them that the gospel may be spread. vs2, "and that we may be DELIVERED from perverse and evil men; for not all have faith." Vs3, "But the Lord is faithful, and He will strengthen and protect you from the evil one."

After slowing reading these chapters I cannot see anything in the words that hint to a pre-trib rapture. The way the Apostle Paul is explaining everything were right here on "terrafirma," and not raptured but awaiting the second coming.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[bluto]

Jesus invented it .
Noah,Lot,all the examples are prejudgement.
Are you aware you need a post judgement "taken"
The "one taken" of mat 24 is not in a destroyed earth/population context ,neither is the "5 wise virgins taken" context

To be honest I don't know what your talking about here. I don't read "code" so can you please unpack what you saying.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[presidente]

2Th2:3 - "that day ^ will NOT be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*…" (ONE THING named as being *FIRST* b/f the DOTL can BE PRESENT to unfold upon the earth with its "man of sin" and ALL he is slated to DO over the course of those 7-yrs)


Liddell and Scott (1895) - "apostasia - LATER FORM FOR apostasis"


"apo stasis" - "a standing away from [a previous standing]" or, DEPARTURE... but here in our verse it is "THE Departure" (the one Paul had JUST MENTIONED in v.1!)

[and recall what I'd put about the "stasin/stasis" verse ]

The apostasy occurs before the day of Christ, described earlier...the day in which Jesus comes with His holy angels and gives the church rest and executes judgment on them that believe not, when He comes to be glorified in the saints. Let's stick with what the book says so far instead of eisegeting a pre-trib scenario into it.


I wanted to point out the the use of capitals and large fonts makes it hard to read what you write. I know you are doing it for emphasis, but it makes it hard to read and follow. I suspect some lawyers who put those all caps sections on the most important parts of EULAs and other contracts do so to decrease comprehension on the part of the reader, rather than for increased comprehension. Add caps is considered shouting in Internet etiquette.

 

[presidente]

Your case is weak.
The ac is revealed, No problem.
He is revealed to us,

The world welcomes him as a great man.

There is no conflict with the pretrib rapture.
I even believe we will all be rounded up and detained by the thousands.
The bride will be raptured from those facilities......pretrib

Show me some passage where there is a sequence of events and a pre-trib rapture occurs? Otherwise, show me where there is more than one parousia/coming of Christ after His ascension. The things that occur at the parousia do not line up with the pre-trib theory. The man of sin is destroyed at the brightness of His parousia. The dead in Christ rise and the rapture occurs at His parousia.

 

[presidente]

Thank you for your honesty. You have actually read the Mcdonald prophecy, many people just parrot what they heard from someone that Darby got the rapture from McDonald's visions. If you read it, it is not pre-trib as you said.

Darby did not invent the pre-trib rapture, nor did Scofield. In fact I disagree with the Scofield Bible, where? Not so much in any particular doctrine since I have never read a Scofield Bible and I do not know what the man believed. I am just on principle against ALL commentaries that are attached into the Bible. Because many times what happens is people forget which part was commentary and which part was the actual words of Scripture and they equate the two.

If I would read what Scofield thought perhaps I would agree with him, perhaps not. I just believe the best way to come to truth is through Scriptures being revealed to us by the Holy Spirit, not some church father in the past or Darby or Bible commentary or some modern day Bible teacher. Those are all nice things to have, but they are not the way to approach this topic, I believe.

Apparently there was one guy named Ephraim who believed in something along the lines of the pre-trib rapture. I know of no evidence that Darby had heard of him. As far as I know, Darby invented the dispensational pre-trib rapture, or re-invented pre-trib. I see no evidence that the apostles believed it or that any church taught it before Darby.

But I do not believe it came in through the group Irving was associated with or Margaret McDonald, either.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So now we get to 2 Thess chapter 2. Paul says again, don't get shook up regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering to Him." (vs1).

No, Paul is NOT saying [v.1] "don't get shook up REGARDING the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering-together [event] unto Him"

[that is to BLUR TOGETHER two entirely distinct items--and most ppl do this (which is incorrect) so don't feel bad, you're not alone! lol]

vs3 says, "Let no one in any way deceive you,

Verse 2 says that, and then goes on to talk HERE (in VERSE 2) about "what" they are not to "get shook up" about, and it's NOT what you just suggested it was ^ , but something completely DIFFERENT.

[… ^ the part you are LEAVING OUT COMPLETELY, which is part of WHY you are not grasping what is actually being said]

[that (what you are doing) is to BLUR TOGETHER two entirely distinct items--and most ppl do this (which is incorrect) so don't feel bad, you're not alone! lol]

for it will not come "UNLESS THE APOSTACY COMES FIRST, and the man of lawlessness is reveale, the son of destruction."

Define the "IT" of this sentence (correctly) and then you will begin to see clearly what Paul is actually conveying (which is NOT what you are suggesting he is conveying!)

[that (what you are doing) is to BLUR TOGETHER two entirely distinct items--and most ppl do this (which is incorrect) so don't feel bad, you're not alone! lol]

Most ppl define what v.2 is talking about INCORRECTLY [he's not talking about the "event" of VERSE 1 in this VERSE 2!], thus missing what Paul is actually conveying.

This is perfectly consistent with the words of Jeus at Matthew 24:15 where Jesus tells us what to do when the Abomanation of Desolation is revealed.

THAT ^ is what happens at the MIDDLE of the trib years (and consistent with 2Th2:4... consistent with Rev13:5-7 context... and consistent with Daniel 9:27b [all of which are speaking of the MIDDLE of the trib];

but "the DOTL" will "ARRIVE" way back at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5; SEAL #1; Dan9:27A[26]/2Th2:9a/8a[not 8b!] all speaking of the "START" of the 7-yrs!... THIS is when "the man of sin be revealed" NOT at the later [MID-trib] 2Th2:4/Matt24:15 [AoD] thing! (which is also the Dan9:27B MIDDLE part)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No, Paul is NOT saying [v.1] "don't get shook up REGARDING the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering-together [event] unto Him"

[that is to BLUR TOGETHER two entirely distinct items--and most ppl do this (which is incorrect) so don't feel bad, you're not alone! lol]

...and before anyone gets confused ^ , I am saying (here ^ ):

--V.1 is ALL about "our Rapture" event (in its two phrases)

--V.2 is NOT about "our Rapture" event, but a completely DISTINCT THING which is an EARTHLY *TIME-PERIOD* [of much duration!] (which includes "JUDGMENTS" unfolding UPON THE EARTH)



--V.3 is how they [those ^ TWO DISTINCT ITEMS] "fit" IN RELATION (time-wise/chronology-wise) TO each other

 

[presidente]

No, Paul is NOT saying [v.1] "don't get shook up REGARDING the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering-together [event] unto Him"

[that is to BLUR TOGETHER two entirely distinct items--and most ppl do this (which is incorrect) so don't feel bad, you're not alone! lol]



Verse 2 says that, and then goes on to talk HERE (in VERSE 2) about "what" they are not to "get shook up" about, and it's NOT what you just suggested it was ^ , but something completely DIFFERENT.

[… ^ the part you are LEAVING OUT COMPLETELY, which is part of WHY you are not grasping what is actually being said]

[that (what you are doing) is to BLUR TOGETHER two entirely distinct items--and most ppl do this (which is incorrect) so don't feel bad, you're not alone! lol]

I have no reason to separate out the rapture from the day of Christ the way you do. What is your justification for it? You need to give me some justification for having multiple parousia's, multiple returns of Christ before interpreting the passage the way you do.

You can invent different categories to reinterpret a passage, but then how do you justify your invention of categories? What you are doing is called eisegesis, reading an idea into a passage.

Let us look at a larger section of the passage in question.


7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
II Thessalonians
Chapter 1

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Chapter 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Notice 'that day' in chapter 1 verse 10. This is the day in which the church receives rest. It is the day when Jesus comes and executes judgment on them that believe not.

You should also consider that there were some people going around teaching that the resurrection of the dead had come already.

Define the "IT" of this sentence (correctly) and then you will begin to see clearly what Paul is actually conveying (which is NOT what you are suggesting he is conveying!)

The translation I am using says, 'that day.' If you capitalize 'it', it becomes another word, that department that handles computer stuff. Frequent caps makes reading slower.

[that (what you are doing) is to BLUR TOGETHER two entirely distinct items--and most ppl do this (which is incorrect) so don't feel bad, you're not alone! lol]

You are making distinctions and creating categories without Biblical justification to do so, and when doing so runs against both historical interpretation and the natural reading of the text.

Most ppl define what v.2 is talking about INCORRECTLY [he's not talking about the "event" of VERSE 1 in this VERSE 2!], thus missing what Paul is actually conveying.

It is easier to understand without wearing the pre-trib filter glasses.


THAT ^ is what happens at the MIDDLE of the trib years (and consistent with 2Th2:4... consistent with Rev13:5-7 context... and consistent with Daniel 9:27b [all of which are speaking of the MIDDLE of the trib];

but "the DOTL" will "ARRIVE" way back at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5; SEAL #1; Dan9:27A[26]/2Th2:9a/8a[not 8b!] all speaking of the "START" of the 7-yrs!... THIS is when "the man of sin be revealed" NOT at the later [MID-trib] 2Th2:4/Matt24:15 [AoD] thing! (which is also the Dan9:27B MIDDLE part)

And where is the Biblical justification for rapturing the church before all this?

Btw, all the slashes, brackes, footnotes, and lack of spaces along with caps make your stuff unnecessarily slow to read. The excessive caps, italics, and bolding actually may be intended for emphasis, but have the opposite effect. A one-off bolded world helps. A whole paragraph with it just looks like typed chicken scratch.