What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

[bluto]

You were "taught" poorly [/improperly] if you were taught that what takes place upon "our Rapture" [IN THE AIR] is "the marriage FEAST/SUPPER of the Lamb" (which is "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, which doesn't commence until He "RETURNS [TO THE EARTH]"--not at "our Rapture" time-slot!)

The marriage FEAST/SUPPER is NOT the purpose of "our Rapture," and will not be taking place until we "RETURN" (WITH Him) to the earth, WHERE "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" is located (being the "inauguration" [so to speak] of the MK age), and where those still-on-the-earth (never having left the earth) [and those who] will have come to faith WITHIN/DURING the trib yrs (FOLLOWING "our Rapture"/"THE Departure") will thereafter (after His RETURN, in Rev19) ENTER the MK in mortal bodies (those who haven't DIED in the trib, of course; those who have DIED in the trib will be "resurrected" at the END of the trib, same time as the OT saints, per Dan12:13, etc)... so those who have survived THROUGH the trib (without dying [so they are "still-living" at His "RETURN" to the earth]) are passages such as Dan12:12 ("BLESSED is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days"), and Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 and context ("when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal!), and about TEN OTHER "BLESSED" passages I've listed before (i.e. their ENTRANCE into the earthly MK age), and Matthew 25:31-34/Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50, and all of Matt24-25 (this is what LEADS UP TO that), and ALL "Son of man COMETH/COMING/SHALL COME" passages (and ALL of "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" passages [i.e. the EARTHLY MK]), and SO MANY MORE! Basically, everything UP TO and INCLUDING Jesus' Olivet Discourse is covering the Subject of His "RETURN" to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom.

Additionally, I'm not one that believes that "planes will fall out of the sky" [BECAUSE of] when our [pre-trib] Rapture takes place, for example.

No, I was taught right by the pretribers and your misrepresenting what I said. I know the marriage supper of the Lamb "DOES NOT" take place in the air and I also know that the purpose of the rapture is to have the marriage supper. That would be "ridiculous" don't you think?

This whole thread as far as I'm concerned and the threads before and even future threads are about when Jesus Christ comes back, it's about the timing of His return. Your whole point is the rapture will occur when Christ returns "PRIOR" to the seven year period of the great tribulation, that's it.

So, we read the following at John 6:39, 40, 44, and vs54 which all say the same thing, "I Myself will rasie him up on THE LAST DAY." How do you prove that your pretrib rapture contention is "BEFORE" the last day? It has already be proved when the last day is by what Jesus stated at Matthew 24:3 when the disciples (three of the disciples that is) said to Jesus, "what will be the sign of Your coming, and the end of the age/world.?

Now, (and speaking of Matthew 24) what is your opinion of starting at vs40-41? "There shall be two men in the field, one will be taken, and one will be left?" vs41, "Two women will be grinding etc. I almost forgot to tell you that it was taught people would mysteriously instantly disappear causing other to die from plane crashes etc. Then even made movies of this kind of thing happening. Since you don't personally believe it then why was this such a popular belief among pretrib scholars?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

that the rapture was "dubed" the secret rapture. I also remember that according to this secret rapture that […]

Those who refer to this ^ often do not realize that (as I understand it) the phrase "the secret rapture" originated from Edward Irving who was an "Historicist" [the idea that the Revelation (the parts I'm calling the "FUTURE" aspects--from 4:1 onward) are what has been unfolding over the course of the past [nearly] 2000 years [1800, from his day] SINCE THE FIRST CENTURY); and that (consequently) he did NOT believe in a "pre-trib rapture"... just a "secret" one that would take place before His Second Advent. At least that's how I understand where that particular "dubbing" originated.

[he also believed in "baptismal regeneration," and did not believe Jesus was "sinless" in His humanity... etc, so there's that ]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

and I also know that the purpose of the rapture is to have the marriage supper.

No, the Rapture is not FOR "the marriage FEAST/SUPPER" ^

"The marriage FEAST/SUPPER" is ON THE EARTH, and will take place upon His "RETURN" there; It is synonymous with "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" and the "G347 SHALL SIT DOWN [around a table/at a meal]" of Matthew 8:11 and its parallel...

(… plus the passages I already pointed out, like Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" [THEN the meal! v.38!]... and ITS parallels [see also the OTHER "RETURN" passage: Lk19:12,15,17,19]... and so very many more... like how Matt19:28 is parallel [TIME-WISE] with Matthew 25:31-34... which then Matthew 19:28 is parallel [TIME-WISE] with Luke 22:30,16,18... which then is also parallel [TIME-WISE] with Matthew 26:29... on and on, so many more... [these, at His "RETURN" to the EARTH, FOR the EARTHLY MK age, aka "the age [SINGULAR] to come" Matt12:32 [ON THE EARTH])

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

EDIT:

TDW: ... RETURN FROM the wedding" [THEN the meal! v.38!]

meant, v.37


So, DURING the trib [FOLLOWING our Rapture], those "INVITED [I.e. guests]" to "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [/MK] will have been "HAVING BEEN INVITED" (that is how the Rev19:9 phrasing puts it... NOT that the supper has yet taken place, but that the "INVITATION" has gone on [all DURING the Trib yrs] "TO/FOR" the MK age / supper)

 

[bluto]

Those who refer to this ^ often do not realize that (as I understand it) the phrase "the secret rapture" originated from Edward Irving who was an "Historicist" [the idea that the Revelation (the parts I'm calling the "FUTURE" aspects--from 4:1 onward) are what has been unfolding over the course of the past [nearly] 2000 years [1800, from his day] SINCE THE FIRST CENTURY); and that (consequently) he did NOT believe in a "pre-trib rapture"... just a "secret" one that would take place before His Second Advent. At least that's how I understand where that particular "dubbing" originated.

[he also believed in "baptismal regeneration," and did not believe Jesus was "sinless" in His humanity... etc, so there's that ]

I really hate to do this to you because what I'm about to post is a long read. The article is about, "Who Invened the Pre-Trib Rapture." What I find interesting is during this time, and I'm referring to the so-called, "Age of Enlightenment" "The Age of Reason" etc. During the 18hundreds you have the Mormons, Christadelphians, the mind sciences cults and all kinds of heretical teaching about the Bible.

I'm trying to make the point that the "amosphere" during those times were anything but sound Biblical theology. Please read the topic, "Did Edward Irving invent the pre-trb rapture.

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1...gAegQICxAn&biw=1025&bih=514#spf=1575747991954

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TO ADD to my above post, about Rev19:9

[quoting a paragraph from a post I made awhile back, regarding this "BLESSED" issue]

"--about eight to TEN "BLESSED" passages in the gospels+ [correlating with Dan12:12's "BLESSED" (specific time slot ["Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days"]--referring to "still-living" persons, at the time of His Second Coming to the earth) and Rev19:9's "BLESSED" both/all pertaining to their entrance into the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His RETURN to the earth at the time of His Second Coming to the earth]"

[end quoting that post]

____________

"BLESSED" -

[re: the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth (per Rev19)] -

--Daniel 12:12 "BLESSED is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days" [the 'still-living' person/saints at end of trib, who will enter the MK age in their mortal bodies]

--Matthew 24:46 [Olivet Discourse] "BLESSED is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing."

--Matthew 25:34 [Olivet Discourse] "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye BLESSED of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from [G575 - apo; not "BEFORE G4253 - pro" as is used of others elsewhere] the foundation of the world"

--Luke 12:37 [36-37,38,40,42-44 'when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." (as "ALREADY-WED") THEN the meal] "BLESSED are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them."

--Luke 12:38 [same as above] "And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, BLESSED are those servants."

--Luke 12:43 [same as above] "BLESSED is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing."

--Revelation 16:15-16 [timing: Armageddon] "Behold, I come as a thief. BLESSED is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

--Revelation 19:9 [distinct from 19:7 re: "the MARRIAGE" itself (re: the "BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]"), by contrast] "BLESSED are all those having been INVITED to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER of the Lamb" [i.e. the earthly MK]

 

[bluto]

No, the Rapture is not FOR "the marriage FEAST/SUPPER" ^

"The marriage FEAST/SUPPER" is ON THE EARTH, and will take place upon His "RETURN" there; It is synonymous with "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" and the "G347 SHALL SIT DOWN [around a table/at a meal]" of Matthew 8:11 and its parallel...

(… plus the passages I already pointed out, like Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" [THEN the meal! v.38!]... and ITS parallels [see also the OTHER "RETURN" passage: Lk19:12,15,17,19]... and so very many more... like how Matt19:28 is parallel [TIME-WISE] with Matthew 25:31-34... which then Matthew 19:28 is parallel [TIME-WISE] with Luke 22:30,16,18... which then is also parallel [TIME-WISE] with Matthew 26:29... on and on, so many more... [these, at His "RETURN" to the EARTH, FOR the EARTHLY MK age, aka "the age [SINGULAR] to come" Matt12:32 [ON THE EARTH])

Just so you know I "mispoke" when I said the purpose of the rapture was to have the marriage supper. I meant to say, "I know purpose of the rapture "IS NOT" for the purpose of the rapture, my apologies.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Please read the topic, "Did Edward Irving invent the pre-trb rapture.

I just got done saying he was an "Historicist" (not a "pre-tribber")... but whatever. Believe what you wish.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Just so you know I "mispoke" when I said the purpose of the rapture was to have the marriage supper. I meant to say, "I know purpose of the rapture "IS NOT" for the purpose of the rapture, my apologies.

Okay, thanks for clarifying.

It happens. (I'm always and forever needing to EDIT, and not having sufficient TIME for it! LOL)

Even so, do you think "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER of the Lamb" takes place IN HEAVEN?

I'm saying that this passage does not say so (NOR any of the OTHER *related* passages).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So... about Edward Irving (Historicist), that his phrase "secret rapture" did NOT refer to a "pre-trib rapture" (as is commonly claimed).

I know a lot of ppl still in the 20th century were STILL teaching aspects of the "Historicist" viewpoint (and still do teach it).

I've been saying, that the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book [of Rev] are ALL "FAR-FUTURE" (from when written), and that the "SEALS" are the EQUIVALENT of "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" at the START of the 7-yrs (the INITIAL one [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3] being at its ARRIVAL point in time; even yet future to US, and future to OUR RAPTURE [i.e. immediately FOLLOWING it]).

There are also a number of Bible teachers [etc] that teach THAT ^ *correctly*.

The "Historicist" viewpoint (Irving's) has the SEALS being opened back in the 1st century.

 

[presidente]

2Th2:3 - "that day ^ will NOT be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*…" (ONE THING named as being *FIRST* b/f the DOTL can BE PRESENT to unfold upon the earth with its "man of sin" and ALL he is slated to DO over the course of those 7-yrs)


Liddell and Scott (1895) - "apostasia - LATER FORM FOR apostasis"


"apo stasis" - "a standing away from [a previous standing]" or, DEPARTURE... but here in our verse it is "THE Departure" (the one Paul had JUST MENTIONED in v.1!)

[and recall what I'd put about the "stasin/stasis" verse ]

The coming of the Lord and our gathering unto him cannot happen before the apostasy. That's not an argument for pretrib.

There is no reason to think there is a 7 year gap between the resurrection/rapture event and the day of the Lord. Chapter 1 of II Thessalonians refers to the day of Jesus' giving us rest and executing vengence as 'that day' before continuing to teach about the day of the Lord in chapter 2.

Let us consider II Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

We can apply verse 2 to pre-tribbers who would have us believe that the rapture/resurrection event and an additional 'coming of our Lord Jesus Christ' occurs before the son of man be revealed.

Let us also consider the words of a native speaker of Greek, whose sermons were quite famous and influential, John Chrysostom. His commentary on verses 3 and 4 are as follows.

St. John Chrysostom, native speaker of Greek according to :www.newadvent dot org slash fathers slash 23053 dot htm

Here he discourses concerning the Antichrist, and reveals great mysteries. What is the falling away? He calls him Apostasy, as being about to destroy many, and make them fall away. So that if it were possible, He says, the very Elect should be offended. From Matthew 24:24 And he calls him the man of sin. For he shall do numberless mischiefs, and shall cause others to do them. But he calls him the son of perdition, because he is also to be destroyed. But who is he? Is it then Satan? By no means; but some man, that admits his fully working in him. For he is a man. And exalts himself against all that is called God or is worshipped. For he will not introduce idolatry, but will be a kind of opponent to God; he will abolish all the gods, and will order men to worship him instead of God, and he will be seated in the temple of God, not that in Jerusalem only, but also in every Church. Setting himself forth, he says; he does not say, saying it, but endeavoring to show it. For he will perform great works, and will show wonderful signs.

Notice he takes this to refer to the Antichrist. Apparently calling the man of sin the Antichrist was in use in the fourth century, also. He does not consider the apostasy to be the rapture, but apparently interprets it to be a falling away, a departing from the faith. He also associates this passage with the parallel teachings in Matthew 24.

 

[Absolutely]

That would help! Anyone who is able to prove TWO comings, one FOR the Church and another one WITH the Church later on would got a case going.

UNFORTUNATELY, we know that folks in church history NEVER anticipated two comings nor did they have the dispie understanding of separating Jesus' words from Paul's or any of this we got goin today!
ALL the creeds and commentaries from the first 3 centuries of the Church are waiting for one coming. THATS THE IDEA you get from just reading the Bible without anyone planting an idea in you too!

Tell it to jesus as he would have to be confused.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man comes

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
mat 25
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

mat 26
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Pretrib rapture in mat24 25 and 26

Mark 14
15 He will show you a large room upstairs, furnished and ready. Make preparations for us there.” 25 Truly I tell you, I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”

Luke 22
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God

Jn 14
2 In my Father’s house there are many dwelling places. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?[l] 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, so that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And you know the way to the place where I am going.

 

[Absolutely]

ALL the creeds and commentaries from the first 3 centuries of the Church are waiting for one coming. THATS THE IDEA you get from just reading the Bible without anyone planting an idea in you too!

That's been Debunked already.

 

[Absolutely]

YES AND NO

The Christian Church as we call it today, SURE it was officially founded in Acts 2.

BUT lets not forget, there was a CHURCH before Acts 2! The Bible is clear on that.

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Matthew 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

The church is an assembly of baptized believers.

The church easily existed from the crucifiction onward.

 

[Absolutely]

I really hate to do this to you because what I'm about to post is a long read. The article is about, "Who Invened the Pre-Trib Rapture." What I find interesting is during this time, and I'm referring to the so-called, "Age of Enlightenment" "The Age of Reason" etc. During the 18hundreds you have the Mormons, Christadelphians, the mind sciences cults and all kinds of heretical teaching about the Bible.

I'm trying to make the point that the "amosphere" during those times were anything but sound Biblical theology. Please read the topic, "Did Edward Irving invent the pre-trb rapture.

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1...gAegQICxAn&biw=1025&bih=514#spf=1575747991954

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Jesus invented it .
Noah,Lot,all the examples are prejudgement.
Are you aware you need a post judgement "taken"
The "one taken" of mat 24 is not in a destroyed earth/population context ,neither is the "5 wise virgins taken" context

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The coming of the Lord and our gathering unto him cannot happen before the apostasy.

That's not what Paul's sentence is conveying.

That's not an argument for pretrib.

That hasn't been the argument

(and not what I am presenting).

There is no reason to think there is a 7 year gap between the resurrection/rapture event and the day of the Lord.

There isn't, and this has not been what I've been saying.

There ISN'T a "7 yr gap" between those two ^ items.

There's a split-second "gap" (if you will); but more like, WE GO VERTICAL "and then" the DOTL GOES HORIZONTAL (for a very lengthy TIME PERIOD, including ongoing JUDGMENTS... etc).

What you are doing is accepting an unbiblical definition of "the DOTL" in place of the "biblically-defined" definition of it.



"The DOTL" = "a-period-of-time-of-JUDGMENTs-followed-by-a-period-of-time-of-BLESSINGs-[ALL-EARTHLY-TIME-PERIOD-of-LONG-DURATION]"

 

[Absolutely]

The coming of the Lord and our gathering unto him cannot happen before the apostasy. That's not an argument for pretrib.

There is no reason to think there is a 7 year gap between the resurrection/rapture event and the day of the Lord. Chapter 1 of II Thessalonians refers to the day of Jesus' giving us rest and executing vengence as 'that day' before continuing to teach about the day of the Lord in chapter 2.

Let us consider II Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

We can apply verse 2 to pre-tribbers who would have us believe that the rapture/resurrection event and an additional 'coming of our Lord Jesus Christ' occurs before the son of man be revealed.

Let us also consider the words of a native speaker of Greek, whose sermons were quite famous and influential, John Chrysostom. His commentary on verses 3 and 4 are as follows.

St. John Chrysostom, native speaker of Greek according to :www.newadvent dot org slash fathers slash 23053 dot htm


Notice he takes this to refer to the Antichrist. Apparently calling the man of sin the Antichrist was in use in the fourth century, also. He does not consider the apostasy to be the rapture, but apparently interprets it to be a falling away, a departing from the faith. He also associates this passage with the parallel teachings in Matthew 24.

Your case is weak.
The ac is revealed, No problem.
He is revealed to us,

The world welcomes him as a great man.

There is no conflict with the pretrib rapture.
I even believe we will all be rounded up and detained by the thousands.
The bride will be raptured from those facilities......pretrib

 

[presidente]

So... about Edward Irving (Historicist), that his phrase "secret rapture" did NOT refer to a "pre-trib rapture" (as is commonly claimed).

I know a lot of ppl still in the 20th century were STILL teaching aspects of the "Historicist" viewpoint (and still do teach it).

I've been saying, that the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book [of Rev] are ALL "FAR-FUTURE" (from when written), and that the "SEALS" are the EQUIVALENT of "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" at the START of the 7-yrs (the INITIAL one [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3] being at its ARRIVAL point in time; even yet future to US, and future to OUR RAPTURE [i.e. immediately FOLLOWING it]).

There are also a number of Bible teachers [etc] that teach THAT ^ *correctly*.

The "Historicist" viewpoint (Irving's) has the SEALS being opened back in the 1st century.

The alleged version of the Margaret McDonald prophecy I read did not seem to be talking about a pre-trib rapture at all. Darby was a cessationists. There may have been some interaction between Darby and Irving at...I can't remember of the estate where they held the end-times discussions back in the 1800's in England.

The Catholic Apostolic Church movements idea of the millinneum, from what I read, is quite different from dispensationalism.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Chapter 1 of II Thessalonians refers to the day of Jesus' giving us rest and executing vengence as 'that day' before continuing […]

2Th1:7 just says, "ye who are troubled REST/REPOSE with us IN THE REVELATION of Jesus Christ from heaven with His mighty angels"...

the text does not have the words "WHEN," nor "you WILL RECEIVE [rest when]," nor "He WILL GIVE [rest when]"... but is simply stated factually, "ye who are troubled REST/REPOSE with us IN THE REVELATION OF..."

https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/1-7.htm


"the DOTL" and "IN THAT DAY" (whenever used in close proximity / same contexts), always refers to the SAME TIME PERIOD, and thus is the case also with chpts 1 and 2, here! (where this is the proof that the "time period" spoken of [DOTL/IN THAT DAY], ARRIVES well-before Jesus Himself returns[/arrives] to the earth at Rev19/His Second Coming to the earth time-slot)

 

[Melach]

Additionally, I'm not one that believes that "planes will fall out of the sky" [BECAUSE of] when our [pre-trib] Rapture takes place, for example.

what do you believe about it? i want to know. what do you believe will happen. people will just disappear and people from graves go up (church people) and the saved alive at that time. but what if someone is a saved pilot, why wont planes fall out the sky?