Which gospel?
- Thread starter RebuildJesussChurch
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I was thinking that too. But plants don't grow without any roots.
That parable says the roots did not go deep enough. I think the parable is crafted by Jesus with the Jeremiah 17 passage about the tree planted by the spring of water in mind.
Believing is not a work that can not justify.
My argument is that you have to not stop the believing that began on day one of your salvation. You lose access to the ministry of Christ if you do that. In which case, his 'forever' ministry is no longer accessible to you. You're cut off from it when you are in unbelief. This has nothing to do with working to be and stay justified.
If believing is a work of trying to earn your own salvation, surely all of this is too!
The vessel does not represent the lamp itself. It represents a store of oil available to the lamp, just as a wallet or purse in your analogy is the store of money available to the person and is not the person themselves. And in your analogy (a good one) we know who has this store of money with them and is using it by the expensive and abundant clothes, cars, jewelry, etc. on display on the outside. Good analogy.
SUM PIC XRF DEV STU
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
New Living Translation
But the plants soon wilted under the hot sun, and since they didn’t have deep roots, they died.
English Standard Version
but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away.
Berean Study Bible
But when the sun rose, the seedlings were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
Berean Literal Bible
And the sun having risen, they were scorched, and through not having root, were dried up.
New American Standard Bible
"But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
New King James Version
But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away.
King James Bible
And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
Christian Standard Bible
But when the sun came up, it was scorched, and since it had no root, it withered away.
Contemporary English Version
But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched and dried up, because they did not have deep roots.
Good News Translation
But when the sun came up, it burned the young plants; and because the roots had not grown deep enough, the plants soon dried up.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
But when the sun came up they were scorched, and since they had no root, they withered.
International Standard Version
But when the sun came up, they were scorched. Since they did not have any roots, they dried up.
NET Bible
But when the sun came up, they were scorched, and because they did not have sufficient root, they withered.
New Heart English Bible
But when the sun had risen, they were scorched. Because they had no root, they withered away.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But when the sun rose, it became hot, and because there were no roots, it dried up.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
But when the sun came up, they were scorched. They withered because their roots weren't deep enough.
New American Standard 1977
“But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
Jubilee Bible 2000
and when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
King James 2000 Bible
And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
American King James Version
And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
American Standard Version
and when the sun was risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And when the sun was up they were scorched: and because they had not root, they withered away.
Darby Bible Translation
but when the sun rose they were burned up, and because of not having [any] root were dried up;
English Revised Version
and when the sun was risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
Webster's Bible Translation
And when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had not root, they withered.
Weymouth New Testament
but when the sun is risen, it is scorched by the heat, and through having no root it withers up.
World English Bible
When the sun had risen, they were scorched. Because they had no root, they withered away.
Young's Literal Translation
and the sun having risen they were scorched, and through not having root, they withered,
Almost 30 translations here. ALL but 3 say "NO ROOT" or "had not ROOT". Note the 3 that say they had root but the root didn't go deep enough. This is EXACTLY why it's vitally important to stay far away from any of these new "living word" type Bibles.
In the analogy the Holy Spirit or Oil, would be the money. No disagreement there.The vessel does not represent the lamp itself. It represents a store of oil available to the lamp, just as a wallet or purse in your analogy is the store of money available to the person and is not the person themselves. And in your analogy (a good one) we know who has this store of money with them and is using it by the expensive and abundant clothes, cars, jewelry, etc. on display on the outside. Good analogy.
The analogy is about WHERE the Holy Spirit would be stored. Store is synonymous with Wal-Mart. Lamp is synonymous with vessel.
NayborBear
Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Of course! The context, right?
Because only a foolish virgin would trim a wick that has never been "lit" in the first place, right? Yer "bordering" on the "ridiculous" now, and shallow roots won't allow for one to "see" the meat of the parable.
The meat being? Don't give yer oil to foolish people. That would be detrimental to both.
Jez one of the "crafty" tactics of the spirit of anti christ.
Is just as simple as that!
For this is what happens to those who do.:
Isaiah 28
20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.
And "that", FORCES one into this predicament!:
Isaiah 28
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Perhaps, tis not me that needs get down on my knees, eh "Sherlock?"
The foolish ones said to the wise, "Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out."Of course! The context, right?
Because only a foolish virgin would trim a wick that has never been "lit" in the first place, right? Yer "bordering" on the "ridiculous" now, and shallow roots won't allow for one to "see" the meat of the parable.
The meat being? Don't give yer oil to foolish people. That would be detrimental to both.
Jez one of the "crafty" tactics of the spirit of anti christ.
Is just as simple as that!
For this is what happens to those who do.:
Isaiah 28
20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.
And "that", FORCES one into this predicament!:
Isaiah 28
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Perhaps, tis not me that needs get down on my knees, eh "Sherlock?"
I'll ask my daughter when she gets home from pre-school today if their lamps were lit. I bet she'll nail it!
There's a principle here that antichrist seeks to cover up. Matthew 25 continues into the parable of the talents. The 1 talent servant is a servant of the master, who commands that the "worthless servant" be thrown "outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
The same principle is revealed in Luke 12:42-48. "That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows." We consider the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to us, provided we continue in His kindness. Otherwise, we also will be cut off." Romans 11
Same thing in Mt. 24:45-51. "He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." All these folks, the virgins, servants, the branches that get cut off from the True Vine, the miracle workers in Mt. 7, are house built on sand. Unlike the world (who couldn't be hypocrites), they know the words of Jesus but they do not put them in to practice. They are houses built on sand that will fall with a great crash.
Woe to the Christian shepherds who took away the key to knowledge, just like the experts in the law did during Jesus' earthly ministry. "He will be the sure foundation for your times, a rich store of salvation and wisdom and knowledge; the fear of the Lord is the key to knowledge." Is. 33:6
Satan hasn't had to change his tactics from the Garden: "You shall be like God, but you don't have to obey His Word." That's essentially what the Christianity that I was involved in had said to me. But faith and obedience are inseparable.
[note: anyone not grasping the "blindness [a hardening]... UNTIL," will likely not grasp the following... but I place it here for those who do 
]
[about the "lamps" and "WHEN" they are "lighted"] Consider the following:
Matthew 24:14 - [recall, in my posts at links, that ALL of Matt24-25 is speaking of that which takes place AFTER our Rapture (IN/DURING the trib yrs), and does not concern "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (already-raptured by this point)]
"And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed in the whole earth, for a testimony to all the nations [compare Rev7:9!]; and then the end will come."
[ ^ ...of 'the kingdom OF THE heavenS"... i.e. the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, which will fully commence upon His *RETURN* to the earth]
Matthew 26:[12-]13 -
"For this woman, in pouring this fragrant oil [* G3464 - myron/muron (related also to the word "myrrh") ('anointing-oil' [see below])] on My body, did it for My burial.
Truly I say to you, wherever this gospel [see Matt24:14 (re: during the trib yrs [once the BPs/SEALS commence])] shall be proclaimed in the whole world [see the above-mentioned verses], that which this woman did also will be spoken of, for a memorial of her."
[* "3464 mýron an ointment made of olive oil (1637 /élaion) and other spices (scents)."]
The "oil" for the "lamps" (of Matt25) is also said to be made of... "Cognate: 1637 élaion – olive oil (from 1636 /elaía, "olive tree")" [quote from BibleHub]
____________
Perhaps a clue to "when" they [in the trib /the 'IN THE NIGHT' time frame] "light the lamps":
"8 And when Aaron lights the lamps (b) at twilight, he shall burn incense on it, a perpetual incense before the Lord throughout your generations." [b-literally, 'between the evenings' i.e. starting at 'twilight' the evening [/sundown] before the full light of day (--which has been my point, throughout)]
I maintain that it is FOLLOWING "our Rapture/THE Departure"... esp b/c "in the twinkling of an eye" refers to "the precise moment when one day turns into the next, when the sun is 8-degrees below the horizon, AT SUNDOWN" (so, "RAPTURE-[boom!]-at-SUNDOWN-and-then-[bang!]-'[they]-light-the-lamps [olive-oil]' (for the "IN THE NIGHT"[/"NIGHT-WATCHES"] trib yrs... "and wherever this [^] gospel is preached in all the world, what she has done [pertaining to the "olive oil"] will also be told in memory of her.”)
Exodus 27:20-21 -
20 And you are to command the Israelites to bring you pure oil of pressed olives for the light, to keep the lamps burning continually. [see Lk12:35 and context--leading to the v.36-37 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" thing, THEN the meal (i.e. the earthly MK age)]
21 In the Tent of Meeting, outside the veil that is in front of the Testimony, Aaron and his sons are to tend the lamps before the LORD from evening until morning [i.e. "IN THE NIGHT"/"NIGHT WATCHES" (see also Lk12:35-48)]. This is to be a perpetual statute for the Israelites for the generations to come.
Leviticus 24:2-3 -
1 Then the LORD said to Moses, 2 “Command the Israelites to bring you pure oil of pressed olives for the light, to keep the lamps burning continually.
3 Outside the veil of the Testimony in the Tent of Meeting, Aaron is to tend the lamps continually before the LORD from evening until morning. This is to be a perpetual statute for the generations to come.
[these ^ along with Luke 12:35,36-37,38,39,40-42 and Matthew 25:1-13... regarding His Second Coming to the earth (following [and "pertaining to"] the "IN THE NIGHT" ["DARK"/"DARKNESS" i.e. "NIGHT WATCHES"] portion of "the Day of the Lord" [i.e. the 7-yr trib]--see my posts at links)]
2 Chronicles 13:11 -
11 And they burn unto the Lord every morning and every evening burnt sacrifices and sweet incense: the shewbread also set they in order upon the pure table; and the candlestick of gold with the lamps thereof, to burn every evening: for we keep the charge of the Lord our God; but ye have forsaken him.
Exodus 30:8 -
And when Aaron lighteth the lamps at even, he shall burn incense upon it, a perpetual incense before the Lord throughout your generations.
[cont in next post... er, in Post #611
]
][about the "lamps" and "WHEN" they are "lighted"] Consider the following:
Matthew 24:14 - [recall, in my posts at links, that ALL of Matt24-25 is speaking of that which takes place AFTER our Rapture (IN/DURING the trib yrs), and does not concern "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (already-raptured by this point)]
"And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed in the whole earth, for a testimony to all the nations [compare Rev7:9!]; and then the end will come."
[ ^ ...of 'the kingdom OF THE heavenS"... i.e. the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, which will fully commence upon His *RETURN* to the earth]
Matthew 26:[12-]13 -
"For this woman, in pouring this fragrant oil [* G3464 - myron/muron (related also to the word "myrrh") ('anointing-oil' [see below])] on My body, did it for My burial.
Truly I say to you, wherever this gospel [see Matt24:14 (re: during the trib yrs [once the BPs/SEALS commence])] shall be proclaimed in the whole world [see the above-mentioned verses], that which this woman did also will be spoken of, for a memorial of her."
[* "3464 mýron an ointment made of olive oil (1637 /élaion) and other spices (scents)."]
The "oil" for the "lamps" (of Matt25) is also said to be made of... "Cognate: 1637 élaion – olive oil (from 1636 /elaía, "olive tree")" [quote from BibleHub]
____________
Perhaps a clue to "when" they [in the trib /the 'IN THE NIGHT' time frame] "light the lamps":
"8 And when Aaron lights the lamps (b) at twilight, he shall burn incense on it, a perpetual incense before the Lord throughout your generations." [b-literally, 'between the evenings' i.e. starting at 'twilight' the evening [/sundown] before the full light of day (--which has been my point, throughout)]
I maintain that it is FOLLOWING "our Rapture/THE Departure"... esp b/c "in the twinkling of an eye" refers to "the precise moment when one day turns into the next, when the sun is 8-degrees below the horizon, AT SUNDOWN" (so, "RAPTURE-[boom!]-at-SUNDOWN-and-then-[bang!]-'[they]-light-the-lamps [olive-oil]' (for the "IN THE NIGHT"[/"NIGHT-WATCHES"] trib yrs... "and wherever this [^] gospel is preached in all the world, what she has done [pertaining to the "olive oil"] will also be told in memory of her.”)
Exodus 27:20-21 -
20 And you are to command the Israelites to bring you pure oil of pressed olives for the light, to keep the lamps burning continually. [see Lk12:35 and context--leading to the v.36-37 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" thing, THEN the meal (i.e. the earthly MK age)]
21 In the Tent of Meeting, outside the veil that is in front of the Testimony, Aaron and his sons are to tend the lamps before the LORD from evening until morning [i.e. "IN THE NIGHT"/"NIGHT WATCHES" (see also Lk12:35-48)]. This is to be a perpetual statute for the Israelites for the generations to come.
Leviticus 24:2-3 -
1 Then the LORD said to Moses, 2 “Command the Israelites to bring you pure oil of pressed olives for the light, to keep the lamps burning continually.
3 Outside the veil of the Testimony in the Tent of Meeting, Aaron is to tend the lamps continually before the LORD from evening until morning. This is to be a perpetual statute for the generations to come.
[these ^ along with Luke 12:35,36-37,38,39,40-42 and Matthew 25:1-13... regarding His Second Coming to the earth (following [and "pertaining to"] the "IN THE NIGHT" ["DARK"/"DARKNESS" i.e. "NIGHT WATCHES"] portion of "the Day of the Lord" [i.e. the 7-yr trib]--see my posts at links)]
2 Chronicles 13:11 -
11 And they burn unto the Lord every morning and every evening burnt sacrifices and sweet incense: the shewbread also set they in order upon the pure table; and the candlestick of gold with the lamps thereof, to burn every evening: for we keep the charge of the Lord our God; but ye have forsaken him.
Exodus 30:8 -
And when Aaron lighteth the lamps at even, he shall burn incense upon it, a perpetual incense before the Lord throughout your generations.
[cont in next post... er, in Post #611
]'No root' is a figure of speech. Of course what grew had roots. Plants don't grow without roots.
The point is the word that was planted and that grew had little root. Not enough to stay firmly planted in the soil it had been planted in and draw enough moisture from the ground to survive.
Staying saved, or not, is a matter of whether or not the word remains in a person. And the kind of soil the word is planted in and growing in is what determines the likely hood of the word drying up and being rejected by that soil. Good soil is the soil that perseveres to the end and is saved when Jesus comes back.
[cont from previous post (#609)]
Further [along with what I noted above]:
Apparently, she (in Matt26:12-13) "anointed His head" with an "anointing oil" related to the "olive oil of the olive tree" (which, recall, in Rom11:17,24 context [mentioned earlier], the Olive Tree pertains to "God's governmental ways upon the earth" [ = the "Olive Tree"]).
[and]
Exodus 30:22-33 [bsb] -
The Anointing Oil
22 Once again, The LORD said to Moses, 23 “Take the finest spices: 500 shekels of liquid myrrh, half as much (250 shekels) of fragrant cinnamon, 250 shekels of fragrant cane, 24 500 shekels of cassia—all according to the sanctuary shekel—and a hin of olive oil. 25 Prepare from these a holy anointing oil, a fragrant blend, the work of a perfumer; it will be a holy anointing oil.
26 Use this oil to anoint the Tent of Meeting, the ark of the Testimony, 27 the table and all its utensils, the lampstand and its utensils, the altar of incense, 28 the altar of burnt offering and all its utensils, and the basin with its stand. 29 You are to consecrate them so that they will be most holy. Whatever touches them will be holy. 30 Anoint Aaron and his sons and consecrate them to serve Me as priests.
[note Jesus' present role as "Priest" (at the right hand of the Father), as well as "Priest-King" at His Second Coming to the earth for the earthly MK age (think: Melchizedek); and whereas Jesus = Melchizedek, either Wm Kelly or Gaebelein has a commentary on some section in Hebrews covering how "Aaron" is also a "type" (even tho not of the same priesthood like Melchizedek--again, in a particular section of Hebrews... still looking for that! )]
[...continuing that passage...]
31 And you are to tell the Israelites, ‘This will be My sacred anointing oil for the generations to come. 32 It must not be used to anoint an ordinary man, and you must not make anything like it with the same formula. It is holy, and it must be holy to you. 33 Anyone who mixes perfume like it or puts it on a layman shall be cut off from his people.’”
[see Post#609 for the rest of this post ]
Further [along with what I noted above]:
Apparently, she (in Matt26:12-13) "anointed His head" with an "anointing oil" related to the "olive oil of the olive tree" (which, recall, in Rom11:17,24 context [mentioned earlier], the Olive Tree pertains to "God's governmental ways upon the earth" [ = the "Olive Tree"]).
[and]
Exodus 30:22-33 [bsb] -
The Anointing Oil
22 Once again, The LORD said to Moses, 23 “Take the finest spices: 500 shekels of liquid myrrh, half as much (250 shekels) of fragrant cinnamon, 250 shekels of fragrant cane, 24 500 shekels of cassia—all according to the sanctuary shekel—and a hin of olive oil. 25 Prepare from these a holy anointing oil, a fragrant blend, the work of a perfumer; it will be a holy anointing oil.
26 Use this oil to anoint the Tent of Meeting, the ark of the Testimony, 27 the table and all its utensils, the lampstand and its utensils, the altar of incense, 28 the altar of burnt offering and all its utensils, and the basin with its stand. 29 You are to consecrate them so that they will be most holy. Whatever touches them will be holy. 30 Anoint Aaron and his sons and consecrate them to serve Me as priests.
[note Jesus' present role as "Priest" (at the right hand of the Father), as well as "Priest-King" at His Second Coming to the earth for the earthly MK age (think: Melchizedek); and whereas Jesus = Melchizedek, either Wm Kelly or Gaebelein has a commentary on some section in Hebrews covering how "Aaron" is also a "type" (even tho not of the same priesthood like Melchizedek--again, in a particular section of Hebrews... still looking for that!
)][...continuing that passage...]
31 And you are to tell the Israelites, ‘This will be My sacred anointing oil for the generations to come. 32 It must not be used to anoint an ordinary man, and you must not make anything like it with the same formula. It is holy, and it must be holy to you. 33 Anyone who mixes perfume like it or puts it on a layman shall be cut off from his people.’”
[see Post#609 for the rest of this post
]
Or better said as...
Good soil that is saved when Jesus comes back is the soil in which the seed of the word perseveres and grows to the very end.
They burned up because they had NO Root. Without Jesus, a false profession of faith is like those with no Root. Same as the oil. You can’t change these facts.
P.S. I forgot to add to my Posts #609 and #611, the following points:
--"our Rapture" is ONE of the primary impetuses that helps bring Israel to faith (IN/DURING the trib years; our Rapture immediately PRECEDES that time-period/the trib)
--there is an old study out there (somewhere) showing how "Paul" is a "type" of "the [future] 144,000" [I think I also posted a study RELATED to this, awhile back]… showing the various points of similarity
--ONE similarity is in the manner in which Paul came to faith (1Cor15 says, "as one born out of due time"... i.e. as EARLIER than the rest [like when the 144,000 will come to faith (in the FUTURE trib) and lead the charge (so to speak) "[for those going] into the promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK age"])
--Acts 9:3 says [of Paul], "Now in proceeding, it came to pass as he draws near to Damascus, SUDDENLY also a light from heaven flashed around him." (see also Acts 22:6) ['a light from Heaven'
]
--"our Rapture" is ONE of the primary impetuses that helps bring Israel to faith (IN/DURING the trib years; our Rapture immediately PRECEDES that time-period/the trib)
--there is an old study out there (somewhere) showing how "Paul" is a "type" of "the [future] 144,000" [I think I also posted a study RELATED to this, awhile back]… showing the various points of similarity
--ONE similarity is in the manner in which Paul came to faith (1Cor15 says, "as one born out of due time"... i.e. as EARLIER than the rest [like when the 144,000 will come to faith (in the FUTURE trib) and lead the charge (so to speak) "[for those going] into the promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK age"])
--Acts 9:3 says [of Paul], "Now in proceeding, it came to pass as he draws near to Damascus, SUDDENLY also a light from heaven flashed around him." (see also Acts 22:6) ['a light from Heaven'
]No really.........plants do not 'spring up' without roots.
In context 'no root' means no 'deep' root-- no root deep enough to draw sufficient water up to itself when the heat of day came.
And I thought you agreed we can't know from the parable of the virgins if they ever had oil or not, just that they didn't have any when they awoke and tried to light their lamps.
Oh, and one more thing [to add to my last post, above (Post #616)]:
--where I'd put the other reference to go along with Acts 9:3... I'd only put Acts 22:6... but see also Acts 26:13, saying, "at midday on the road, O king, I saw, a light from heaven above, the brightness [ *G2987 - lamprotēta / lamprotés] of the sun, having shone around me and those journeying with me"
[ * G2987 - "From lampros [G2986]"... and then G2986 says, "From the same as lampas [G2985]" which is our very word found in Matthew 25:1, for "lamps" ]
--where I'd put the other reference to go along with Acts 9:3... I'd only put Acts 22:6... but see also Acts 26:13, saying, "at midday on the road, O king, I saw, a light from heaven above, the brightness [ *G2987 - lamprotēta / lamprotés] of the sun, having shone around me and those journeying with me"
[ * G2987 - "From lampros [G2986]"... and then G2986 says, "From the same as lampas [G2985]" which is our very word found in Matthew 25:1, for "lamps" ]
No to first point, and agreed to no such thing about the oil.
This comment reveals a lot. These discussions should not be seen as some kind of competition. Pretty sad. The true goal of having these discussions should be to help one another.
Remember it was Jesus that said, broad is the way that leads to destruction and many are going in thereat. But strait is the gate and narrow is the way and few there be that find it.