Is it OK to tell God no we won’t do what He asks?
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In the first place what I was trying for is to get people to discuss with me where in scripture we find what God wants us to do about what people label as "judinizing". Based on this we have tossed out some things that I can't find that the tossing out was scripture based, I'd like to find the answer It was my thought that by putting it in everyday terms i could get some answers that I have been wondering about. Boy, was THAT a mistake. All I am getting is scolding and unchristian talk. I still wish there was someone who would speak intelligently, and scripture based, and as you read here that isn't going to happen. People seem in a fighting mood, very unchristian.
Wish Isaiah was here, he speaks of discussions, bet he would talk scripture about it.
Are you actually serious with denying God talk? I don't think obeying God about circumcision is denying God but it is telling God that you will not be cut in the flesh as God had asked under the old covenant. An intelligent, scripture based discussion would say this. I can think of some descriptions of these talks that shouldn't be printed.
Wish Isaiah was here, he speaks of discussions, bet he would talk scripture about it.
Are you actually serious with denying God talk? I don't think obeying God about circumcision is denying God but it is telling God that you will not be cut in the flesh as God had asked under the old covenant. An intelligent, scripture based discussion would say this. I can think of some descriptions of these talks that shouldn't be printed.
all right. Scripture.
in Leviticus 26, God the Father spoke to Moses about the Covenant He made with " the fathers of those who came out of Egypt."
what covenant ? the Mosaic Covenant , which contained the Law and the Sabbath.
so, if one cannot trace their ancestry back to those who crossed the red sea, then that covenant was not made for them, and they are NOT commanded to keep the jewish Sabbath.
so, there is intelligent reasoning , based on clear Scripture.
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in Leviticus 26, God the Father spoke to Moses about the Covenant He made with " the fathers of those who came out of Egypt."
what covenant ? the Mosaic Covenant , which contained the Law and the Sabbath.
so, if one cannot trace their ancestry back to those who crossed the red sea, then that covenant was not made for them, and they are NOT commanded to keep the jewish Sabbath.
so, there is intelligent reasoning , based on clear Scripture.
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How do we know that this covenant wasn't for all those who would join themselves to God's people, and also would apply to all generations?
I as a child of God's would obey the 10 commandments & Sabbath day because it is what God gave to His people. I also see the Feasts as a blessing which speak of Yeshua/Jesus... and whilst these things are not how we are saved, are they still not for us because we have been 'grafted into the olive tree'?
I don't believe in being legalistic about this stuff btw🙂
I as a child of God's would obey the 10 commandments & Sabbath day because it is what God gave to His people. I also see the Feasts as a blessing which speak of Yeshua/Jesus... and whilst these things are not how we are saved, are they still not for us because we have been 'grafted into the olive tree'?
I don't believe in being legalistic about this stuff btw🙂
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I do not have an issue with any who choose to do these things, none whatsoever.
the issue I have is with lying judeaizers who tell me, a gentile Christ follower , telling me I have to keep the dietary laws, festivals, Sabbath, Passover, etc.. or, I am not in right relationship with God.
these are lies.
anyone like you, who chooses to, I have no disagreement.
the issue I have is with lying judeaizers who tell me, a gentile Christ follower , telling me I have to keep the dietary laws, festivals, Sabbath, Passover, etc.. or, I am not in right relationship with God.
these are lies.
anyone like you, who chooses to, I have no disagreement.
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But it is possible, that there are those who are under grace and are in His rest and also desire to be blessed in keeping these things because they are wonderful ideas ordained by God Himself. Please don't think I am suggesting we are under obligation to keep them but I am saying they can be a blessing.🙂
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And we get back to the Jew/gentile question. When I felt I must decide on the answer to this, the Holy Spirit led me to the scriptures about how God considered the gentiles that lived with the Jews. In scripture after scripture it tells us that God directed the Jews o treat them as native sons. In the new testament it states that there is no difference between Jew and gentile. In order to follow the reasoning that they were a class apart, treated differently because they were different would make God a snob.
We know that God used them to show every man His characteristics and they were set apart for that reason. In that way we are told they were different, but that couldn't mean God created a different kind of world that reacted to people in a different way. A liar creates a certain kind of world and the world doesn't ask for his genetics to determine that reaction.
We know that God used them to show every man His characteristics and they were set apart for that reason. In that way we are told they were different, but that couldn't mean God created a different kind of world that reacted to people in a different way. A liar creates a certain kind of world and the world doesn't ask for his genetics to determine that reaction.
The shadow is still in the Word and speaks of the wonderful plan of God and our Precious Saviour.... it's not about preference of one over the other to me. Absolutely what matters is that we do know Him, and the power of His resurrection amen. But He came to fulfil the Law not get rid of it, so it speaks of Him.
Paul was not describing husband Hebrew roots as dung, rather he was saying that, as a means to salvation they were as valuable as sung compared to the knowledge of Christ. So he's saying that what he previously trusted in for salvation he has now lost because he has gained Christ.
The way I see it is that if God chose the people Israel, the Hebrew people and culture, for His purposes and to send our Saviour through, then there is surely a lot to glean about Him from understanding the Hebraic roots of our faith because we have been grafted into Him who is returning as the Lion of the tribe of Judah. Yes what matters is that we know and love Him and trust in the blood for salvation. This does not mean that we must disregard the Hebraic roots of our faith; I value knowing and understanding anything to do with Him.
But as I said, I am not suggesting we have to keep the feasts etc. to be saved. I just think, for example, if God told His people to always keep Passover then why wouldn't we, because it speaks of our Passover Lamb-Christ. The times I have kept such feasts I know I have been blessed.
Paul was not describing husband Hebrew roots as dung, rather he was saying that, as a means to salvation they were as valuable as sung compared to the knowledge of Christ. So he's saying that what he previously trusted in for salvation he has now lost because he has gained Christ.
The way I see it is that if God chose the people Israel, the Hebrew people and culture, for His purposes and to send our Saviour through, then there is surely a lot to glean about Him from understanding the Hebraic roots of our faith because we have been grafted into Him who is returning as the Lion of the tribe of Judah. Yes what matters is that we know and love Him and trust in the blood for salvation. This does not mean that we must disregard the Hebraic roots of our faith; I value knowing and understanding anything to do with Him.
But as I said, I am not suggesting we have to keep the feasts etc. to be saved. I just think, for example, if God told His people to always keep Passover then why wouldn't we, because it speaks of our Passover Lamb-Christ. The times I have kept such feasts I know I have been blessed.
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That is what this thread is trying to thresh out, what is legalism and what is obedience. Legalism is obedience without the spirit of the Lord, without any love. We can be obedient without special diet for example, but I don't think we can be obedient and refuse a time of worship assigned to us like the feasts. And like someone pointed out, I am all alone in that thought.
There has got to be reasons for the beliefs that I am wrong and scripture to back it up. I have reason and scripture to back it for what I think is true. But then that is swept aside under the idea that it is not true that God means us as well as Jews in much of what God says and does. So almost half of scripture is tossed based on that.
It seems to me all scripture is so powerful and true, it is like tossing out jewels.
That was an interesting part of our history. Gentiles were attracted to God and wanted to join the Jews, many did. After a short time, a lot of them decided not to give up their parties and such, but invited the Jews to join them and lots of Jews did. The Jewish leaders (Hillel and Shammai) decided to do something to stop that, they made up 18 rules the gentiles had to follow to join them, with diet and circumcision two of them. We have documents telling us of the list but no copy of the list. The people all had an opinion about it, everyone discussed "the law of Moses". Our scriptures sometimes speaks of the law of Moses as the actually law from God and other times of the law of Moses as the law that local gossip spoke of.
And that is what this thread is about, what should be included and what treated as we treat fleshly circumcision?
There has got to be reasons for the beliefs that I am wrong and scripture to back it up. I have reason and scripture to back it for what I think is true. But then that is swept aside under the idea that it is not true that God means us as well as Jews in much of what God says and does. So almost half of scripture is tossed based on that.
It seems to me all scripture is so powerful and true, it is like tossing out jewels.
That was an interesting part of our history. Gentiles were attracted to God and wanted to join the Jews, many did. After a short time, a lot of them decided not to give up their parties and such, but invited the Jews to join them and lots of Jews did. The Jewish leaders (Hillel and Shammai) decided to do something to stop that, they made up 18 rules the gentiles had to follow to join them, with diet and circumcision two of them. We have documents telling us of the list but no copy of the list. The people all had an opinion about it, everyone discussed "the law of Moses". Our scriptures sometimes speaks of the law of Moses as the actually law from God and other times of the law of Moses as the law that local gossip spoke of.
And that is what this thread is about, what should be included and what treated as we treat fleshly circumcision?
Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? Seems to be echoing something I've been feeling for a solid month or so (which has been building for 2 years) on the topic of the Lord "meeting someone where they are" and how that can be abused and then altered in some fashion.
"seek" and ye shall find. Not just sit around not look but think "if the Lord will only show up... x, y, z" Even when you know that's not the right move "most probably" but you are being stubborn.
Are you referring to something willful in this regard?
I'm not going to speak to the OP, because I think individual burdens like honoring the law NOT living under the law is perfectly acceptable and commendable. It's something I strangely feel a deep burden for that I think it's pretty cool that there's always new things to see in the word. Potentially it is something similar to missions and not everyone feels it the same way...
"seek" and ye shall find. Not just sit around not look but think "if the Lord will only show up... x, y, z" Even when you know that's not the right move "most probably" but you are being stubborn.
Are you referring to something willful in this regard?
I'm not going to speak to the OP, because I think individual burdens like honoring the law NOT living under the law is perfectly acceptable and commendable. It's something I strangely feel a deep burden for that I think it's pretty cool that there's always new things to see in the word. Potentially it is something similar to missions and not everyone feels it the same way...
My point is that there is no scriptural evidence to support your assertions. They contradict the context, in which it is stated, "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials." The discussion was about the Church, not the synagogue, and about gentiles being required to follow Jewish law in order to be considered Christians. Most definitely, the Holy Spirit is not "persnickety".