I apologize as well. God bless you. Online conversations are harder to interpret because we cannot read facial expressions, tone of voice or body language like we can offline.
What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?
- Thread starter Hevosmies
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The following is what I said to Nehemiah a little while ago. "Look, I am "NOT" discounting what happened to Jerusalem about 40 years later/70AD when the Roman army captured Jerusalem and destroyed the city and the Temple. I'm saying this was a "pre-figure" of what is going to happen at the end of the world based on the diciples question at Matthew 24:3. So my question still stands, when does the pretrib rapture happen anywhere in the events that Jesus talked about in Matthew chapter 24? Where are you going to "shoehorn" it in? Or to put in another way, where or how are you going to fit two pounds of bologna in a one pound bag?"
I also said the following to him: "Can you please be more specific as to what Jesus said at the Last Supper that proves the rapture? Btw, the church began (formally)on the day of Pentecost 50 days after the crucifixion of Jesus and remember, He appeared often for about 40 days before the Day of Pentecost. So again, from the Day of Pentecost until now where was the pretrib rapture taught?"
My whole point is the fact that Matthew 24 is a prefigure of what is going to happen to the Church and the world at the end of the world according to Jesus at Matthew 24:3. Matthew 24 is all about the great tribulation and what is going to happen. The same can be said from the writings of Paul at 1 and 2 Thessalonians. Paul backs up every single word that Jesus stated and so does the Apostle John.
Notice the words being used. For instance, "the last day." Or, the last Trumpet. Look for the antichrist, Matthew 24:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, 1 John 2:18. Why are we told to look out for him if were not going to be here because we will be raptured?
And look at 1 Thessalonians 1:6, "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflice you. vs7, and to give REST/RELIEF to you who are afflicted and to us as well "WHEN" the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, vs8, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus."
Notice we get "rest/relief when? When Jesus comes in flaming fire. Also notice that Paul writes in chapter 2 to encourage us not to be shaken in our composure (1 Thess. 2:1 through the rest of the chapter). he mentions to look for the antichrist at vs3 culminating at vs8 which says, "And theen that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and BRING TO AN END BY THE APPEARANCE OF HIS COMING." This is all during the trrbulation and there is not one word about a rapture before all of these events take place.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Well I have been type one diabetic since I was 7, is that ironic or what!?! But I am serious about my post I do not think anyone knows the real truth, per-, mid, or post trib!!!What "fantasy" world are you living in when you said the following: "I believe in pre-trib rapture.... why? because that is how I want it to be!" That's like saying, "I'm going to whistle in the dark hoping the dark will go away." This is nothing more than "wishful thinking?"
And why are you throwing your arms up in the air giving up? I watched my mom die right in front of me in a nursing home from type one diabetes and she never gave up. She was an encouragement to others where she was at. I understand you are "musing" but it is God who is in control so try and be an encouragement to others even in pre-death or in death itself. In fact, one of the thief's on the cross with Jesus ended up being an encouragement to others even to this day.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
How is knowing if you are saved, you will go to heaven giving up? Is HEAVEN NOT BETTER? Why do you care if you die and go to heaven or go in the rapture? Is not heaven the same either way.... what counts is being SAVED!!!!
Is Matthew 24 addressed to the Church of Christ, or the Jews?
Jesus gives the answer in Mark 13v37, “What I say unto you, I say unto all, Watch.” By giving this command to His apostles, Jesus instructs all His Church. The apostles were Israelites, but they were the apostles of the Church, and Jesus spoke to them in this capacity, as Christian believers. If Matt 24 is not to be looked upon as applicable to Christians, because it is “Jewish,” who is to decide what is Jewish and what is Christian? The Gospels are, with a few exceptions, a record of Christ’s ministry to Israelites, but they contain His vital teachings for His Church. The epistles of Peter, James and Hebrews are written to Jews, are we to set these aside? Never! They contain indispensable Christian truth. Was the New Covenant of Matt 26v28, just for the Jews, because it was only spoken to the apostles? Of course not! it is for every believer in Christ Jesus.
The refusal to recognise that the truths of Matt 24 were addressed to the Church, has driven some to utter folly in their reasoning, it is reported that some have even looked upon the Lord's prayer and the Lord's Supper as “Jewish ordinances,” and not applicable to the Church of Christ. If Matt 24 was spoken to the apostles as Jews and not as Christians, how were they to know it? How shall we know what New Testament Scriptures apply to us? What use would these prophecies be to Jews who do not believe in Christ? It would be very strange if the earnest warnings of Christ in Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke17 and 21, were not addressed to Christians, but to Jews who have no faith in Christ. How can those who say that Matt 24 was written for Jews, use Matt 24v36,42 as their major text to prove that Christ may come at any moment for His Church? What kind of Scripture expositor uses a chapter which states that the coming of Christ is preceded by very clear signs, and warns against a secret second advent, to prove that there is a secret advent and rapture of the Church without those signs? Particularly when its advocates say that Matt 24 is addressed only to the Jews, and not to the Church. The pretribulation rapture theory has become widely accepted because Western Christians are unwilling to suffer persecution for Christ's sake. Heb 11v25. As someone has said, “It is an interesting fact that the pretribulation rapture theory did not arise out of a suffering Church. It has come out of a Western civilisation that has been the most comfortable and pleasant in the whole history of Christianity.”
Some have said that the Church was not founded until the day of Pentecost; however, this can be shown to be wrong by many passages of Scripture. The apostles were converted before Pentecost; their names were “written in heaven,” Luke 10v20; they were “clean,” John 15v3; and they belonged to God. John 15v3. Pentecost was not the time when they were saved, they were rejoicing in their salvation before this, Pentecost was the time when they received the promise of the Father to His children, the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Luke 24v49,52,53. Christ said the Law and the prophets were until John, the age of grace and truth started when Jesus started His ministry. Matt 11v13, Luke 16v16, John 1v17. It is nonsense to say that Matt 24 was not spoken to the Church, because the Church did not exist until the day of Pentecost; God gave many promises that belong to the Church to the Old Testament prophets, many centuries before the day of Pentecost.
The Olivet Discourse is not covering the Subject of "our Rapture" (at all), but what will commence to unfold upon the earth FOLLOWING our Rapture. [except for several verses of the Olivet Discourse, found in Luke 21:12-24a about the events of 70ad; with 24b following on from there/that point-in-time]. The Subject there has to do with the "future, limited, specific time-period leading UP TO Christ's Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [promised to Israel]" which will commence upon His "RETURN" there [i.e. TO THE EARTH]." (Nothing whatsoever about our Rapture [IN THE AIR], in the Olivet Discourse, per context. Our Rapture is NOT being covered there.)
Their Q of Him in Matt24:3 was based on what He'd ALREADY spoken to them about in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50... "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" when the "angels will REAP"
"The beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" Jesus spoke of there, are parallel [/the same thing as] "the SEALS" of Rev6, at the START of that future, specific, limited time period (aka what we usually call "the tribulation period" [7-yrs/70th-Wk], not merely "the GREAT tribulation," which is defined as "the second half [3.5 yrs]" ONLY [and that part of it starts at mid-trib, aka "the 5th Trumpet/1st Woe [unto the earth]"]). But way back at the START of the 7-yrs (at "SEAL #1 / the INITIAL/1st "birth PANG [SINGULAR; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 ; 1Th5:2-3]) is when the tribulation period, as a whole, STARTS... when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13; Rev5:6 [Lam2:3-4 paralleling the wording of 2Th2:7b-8a]). More... but not wanting to post too much at one sitting
No. The wording in 2Th1:7 says (instead), "to you being oppressed REST/REPOSE WITH US *IN THE REVELATION* of the Lord Jesus from heaven, with His mighty angels" (the word "when" is not in the verse, nor the idea of "WILL RECEIVE when" [in the verse]...
but simply, "rest/repose with us IN THE REVELATION of the Lord Jesus from heaven..." as more of a statement of fact, than to say "WILL RECEIVE when..." which is not found in the text: https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/1-7.htm … and keeping in mind that He will "STAND to JUDGE" at the START of the 7-yr period [Isa3:13, Rev5:6 [at the time of opening SEAL #1], [Lam2:3-4 paralleling the wording of 2Th2:7b-8a; and note the "wrath" words in the Lam2 context, as well as the "STOOD/STANDING" word in v.4 (parallel the wording similar in Isa3:13, Rev5:6 at the START of the 7-yr trib)]).
Do you realize there is an announcement of the wedding toward the end of the book of Revelation before the seen of Christ in Revelation 19 we interpret to refer to the second coming? Why announce or if it took place about seven years earlier?
Those are interesting verses. Where those disembodied spirits of elders from among the nations in the first century, or was John looking forward like he may have seen when he saw those who came out of great tribulation?
A few things to consider about that Revelation 5:9-10 context:
--in verse 9 is the "US/WE" (speaking of themselves, "the 24 elders" with "crowns of gold" [note what Paul'd said about "IN THAT DAY" in 2Tim4:8 "stephanon/crown"] and sitting on "24 thrones"); whereas in verse 10 it is the word "them" (that is, "the 4 living creatures" are saying this of "the 24 elders"); in the concept of an "antiphonal singing" (and where even more voices are added further on down in the passage); so the "US/WE" of verse 9 shows that "the 24 elders" are humans (not something like "angels")
--in verse 4, the phrase "was found" informs is that this context follows a "searching judgment" (like the way that the word "found" is used of PAUL in the latter chpts of Acts, when he was on trial/before the courts, or whatever)
--the TIMING [/CHRONOLOGY] issue... Rev1:1 says, "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ, which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO His servants [see 7:3 'servants of our God' (re: the 144,000)] things which must come to pass [<--comp. that phrase with 1:19c / 4:1 re: the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]…" (not things which would transpire over the course of some 2000-yrs; nor transpire "immediately [adverb]," "soon [adverb]" etc); the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time frame commences when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" [Isa3:13 etc] and proceed to open SEAL #1 (which is the equivalent of the FIRST/INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" (a CERTAIN ONE bringing DECEPTION); 1Th5:2-3]" of MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse that will FOLLOW ON from that INITIAL one); so this is at the START of the 7-yr period (whereas Rev7:9-14 is speaking of those who are "coming out of the GREAT tribulation" meaning, coming out of the second HALF of the 7-yr period, following the mid-point ["5th Trumpet/1st Woe [unto the earth]"])
--I think I was going to point out more... but I've forgotten what it was, ATM
Do you think this supports a particular eschatological viewpoint?A few things to consider about that Revelation 5:9-10 context:
--in verse 9 is the "US/WE" (speaking of themselves, "the 24 elders" with "crowns of gold" [note what Paul'd said about "IN THAT DAY" in 2Tim4:8 "stephanon/crown"] and sitting on "24 thrones"); whereas in verse 10 it is the word "them" (that is, "the 4 living creatures" are saying this of "the 24 elders"); in the concept of an "antiphonal singing" (and where even more voices are added further on down in the passage); so the "US/WE" of verse 9 shows that "the 24 elders" are humans (not something like "angels")
--in verse 4, the phrase "was found" informs is that this context follows a "searching judgment" (like the way that the word "found" is used of PAUL in the latter chpts of Acts, when he was on trial/before the courts, or whatever)
--the TIMING [/CHRONOLOGY] issue... Rev1:1 says, "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ, which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO His servants [see 7:3 'servants of our God' (re: the 144,000)] things which must come to pass [<--comp. that phrase with 1:19c / 4:1 re: the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]…" (not things which would transpire over the course of some 2000-yrs; nor transpire "immediately [adverb]," "soon [adverb]" etc); the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time frame commences when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" [Isa3:13 etc] and proceed to open SEAL #1 (which is the equivalent of the FIRST/INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" (a CERTAIN ONE bringing DECEPTION); 1Th5:2-3]" of MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse that will FOLLOW ON from that INITIAL one); so this is at the START of the 7-yr period (whereas Rev7:9-14 is speaking of those who are "coming out of the GREAT tribulation" meaning, coming out of the second HALF of the 7-yr period, following the mid-point ["5th Trumpet/1st Woe [unto the earth]"])
--I think I was going to point out more... but I've forgotten what it was, ATM
Let me ask you, where do you believe "the 24 elders" got their "stephanos/crowns" [Paul had said, "IN THAT DAY" (not speaking of the day his death, but at the time of "REWARD [at the "BEMA"--for the corporate BODY of Christ--though certainly as individual MEMBERS of it])] and why are they sitting on "24 thrones" and why are they saying "and WE shall..." (of themselves).
Besides that... the CHRONOLOGY issues, where Paul had ALSO made the point that before "the DOTL" can commence to unfold upon the earth (as it is slated to do), ONE THING [one thing ONLY in that text] must take place "FIRST" (and THIS SEQUENCE is repeated 3x in that particular context, which also aligns with that SAME SEQUENCE that his previous letter to them had shown)... so that Paul is making a particular point regarding "where our Rapture *FITS* [time-wise] IN RELATION TO the time-period known as 'the Day of the Lord' [not a singular 24-hr day]"... the problem comes in when ppl define words improperly in that text, also disregard the grammar, assume two distinct items are instead identical items, read INTO the passage (injecting meanings not present there), are ignorant of the fact that "the Day of the Lord"/"IN THAT DAY" (the "EARTHLY" aspects) are speaking of the SAME TIME PERIOD (these 2 phrases BOTH being used together in 2Th1&2, also [same for OT contexts]) thus proving that it is indeed "a time period [of some DURATION] which PRECEEDS His 'Return' to the earth" and IN/DURING WHICH time-period (the "IN THE NIGHT" / "DARK/DARNESS" tribulation period involving the SEALS/TRUMPETS/VIALS [i.e. the Birth Pangs!]), that is, that FOLLOWS our Rapture, that TWO distinct and OPPOSITE "beliefs [that ppl will be coming to, therein]" are CONTRASTED in this WIDER text/context.
So, you are asking if, by my seeing "HUMANS" with "STEPHANOS/CROWNS" sitting on "THRONES" UP IN HEAVEn, following a "SEARCHING JUDGMENT" at the time that Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" means that I believe "our Rapture/*THE* DEPARTURE/[i.e. RELOCATION]" must come *FIRST* before "the DOTL" can "BE PRESENT" to unfold upon the earth, where it is slated to transpire... then, YES, I DO see a particular eschatological viewpoint being supported [and rather clearly so!] by all that...
and not to mention the passage I've posted about before, in Hebrews 9:8-9, saying, "which is A PARABLE for the PRESENT TIME [re: "the first tabernacle"... the one in the wilderness, due to the "furnishings" shown there, vv.4-__]" (which I won't go into here... whew! My fingers are falling off!
)[meant to add the reference]
Hebrews 9:8-9 -
"the Holy Spirit this evidencing that not yet hath been manifested the way of the holy places, the first tabernacle [the one in the wilderness, due to the furnishings listed here] having yet a standing [G4714 - stasin/stasis]…"
[(elsewhere--> [in a slightly different sense, with the "apo"]-->) apo stasis - "a standing away from [from a previous standing]"]
"... which is A PARABLE for the PRESENT TIME..."
Hebrews 9:8-9 -
"the Holy Spirit this evidencing that not yet hath been manifested the way of the holy places, the first tabernacle [the one in the wilderness, due to the furnishings listed here] having yet a standing [G4714 - stasin/stasis]…"
[(elsewhere--> [in a slightly different sense, with the "apo"]-->) apo stasis - "a standing away from [from a previous standing]"]
"... which is A PARABLE for the PRESENT TIME..."
Further to my post (#264) in this thread:
The facts and context prove the elect of Matt 24 are Christians, and that Matt 24 is addressed to Christians.
a) The elect are Christians who are all over the world, and preaching the Gospel to all the world. Matt 24v14.
b) The elect are Christians who are hated, persecuted and dying for Christ all over the world. Matt 24v9,16-20, Mark 13v9-13.
c) The elect are Christians who are looking for Christ's return and are warned about false Christs. Matt 24v13-27, Luke 21v19,28.
d) The elect are Christians who are gathered by angels, for we know from Isaiah 66v15-21, that the Israelites, who are scattered throughout the world are gathered, not by angels, but by the Gentiles, who bring them to Jerusalem as an offering to God.
e) We read that Matt 25v1 begins with a “Then,” connecting it with Matt 24v44-51; Jesus said the subject is the kingdom of Heaven, not the kingdom of Israel. The parable of the ten virgins is a parable on the truth stated in Matt 24v42-51, the good servant who follows Jesus faithfully to the end of the great tribulation, and the evil servant who backslides into the world in those dark and evil days. The good servant and evil servant appear to be Christian leaders, whose work is to give correct truth at the end of the age. The good servant faithfully fulfils his task, whereas the evil servant has the incorrect idea that His Lord has delayed His coming, and as a result loses faith and lives an evil life, and is cut in sunder by His Lord. The virgins appear to be Christians who again had wrong ideas about their Lord’s return, probably through wrong teaching, and had not prepared for the darkness of the last days. This is a very definite Christian truth, which is addressed to all of the Church of Christ.
f) Jesus warns us that Christians will have to persevere in prayer or they will faint and lose their faith in Him. Luke 18v1-8. Jesus speaks of an elect who are crying day and night for deliverance, and of a God that will avenge the sufferings of His elect at the hands of the wicked. This is certainly not the kind of language that we would expect if we are sure to miss the tribulation. Those who endure as far as the rapture are those who have prayed and not fainted, but many will backslide, and Jesus warns us, “and when the Son of Man cometh, shall He find faith on the earth?” Luke 17v34-36, 18v8, Matt 24v12,13, Rev 13v10, 16v15.
Paul states in Rom 11v5,6, that people have to believe in Jesus to receive the “election of grace.” Paul was heartbroken that most of Israel were blinded by unbelief, and in becoming enemies of Jesus and His Church,. were “broken off” from their promises and election, Rom 9v31-33, 10v3,21, 11v7-10,20,28. However, in Rom 11v25,26,28, Paul states that the promises given to Abraham and his faithful seed will be fulfilled. The Jews are beloved for their forefather's sakes, and God will keep His covenant promises to faithful Jews. Exodus 3v14-16. God gave the Israelites His word, and godly Jews are loved and precious to Him; and when they are presented with a sign-attested Gospel they often respond to the truth in Jesus. God has always given the Jews time to consider His Word, and has invited them to reason with Him. God welcomes scarlet sinners, both Jews and Gentiles, with sweet forgiving reasonableness. Isaiah 1v18.
We see from Acts 10v1-48, N.B. v34,35, that, “In truth God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.” Cornelius was justified on an Old Testament basis, and he was loved, acceptable, and precious to God, even before He heard the Gospel; and so are godly Jews. Paul states that there is now no difference between Jew and Greek, the elect consists of those who call on the Lord to save them. Rom 10v8-14, N.B. v13. Matt 1v21. In Christ, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” Gal 3v28. No one can be among the New Testament “elect” unless they believe in Jesus as Saviour. John 6v37,45,53, 8v24,42, 1Thess 1v4, 2Peter 1v10, 1John 5v9-13, 1Peter 1v9-12.
Some have stated that Matt 24 and Thess 4v13 to 5v5 are different events, one speaking of a coming in glory and the other speaking of a secret rapture. However, though their aim was different, Matt 24 was given to show the signs of Christ's coming and the end of the age, and 1Thess 4v13 to 5v5 was given to comfort and challenge the relatives of departed believers, they are both speaking of the same event, they both use the same descriptive language, they speak of angelic powers, a great voice, a great trumpet, the clouds of heavenly glory, and the elect being gathered and caught up to meet their Lord.
From the above points it is absolutely clear that Matt 24 is addressed to the Church of Christ, and that there will be a post-tribulation advent of Christ and rapture of the Church.
The facts and context prove the elect of Matt 24 are Christians, and that Matt 24 is addressed to Christians.
a) The elect are Christians who are all over the world, and preaching the Gospel to all the world. Matt 24v14.
b) The elect are Christians who are hated, persecuted and dying for Christ all over the world. Matt 24v9,16-20, Mark 13v9-13.
c) The elect are Christians who are looking for Christ's return and are warned about false Christs. Matt 24v13-27, Luke 21v19,28.
d) The elect are Christians who are gathered by angels, for we know from Isaiah 66v15-21, that the Israelites, who are scattered throughout the world are gathered, not by angels, but by the Gentiles, who bring them to Jerusalem as an offering to God.
e) We read that Matt 25v1 begins with a “Then,” connecting it with Matt 24v44-51; Jesus said the subject is the kingdom of Heaven, not the kingdom of Israel. The parable of the ten virgins is a parable on the truth stated in Matt 24v42-51, the good servant who follows Jesus faithfully to the end of the great tribulation, and the evil servant who backslides into the world in those dark and evil days. The good servant and evil servant appear to be Christian leaders, whose work is to give correct truth at the end of the age. The good servant faithfully fulfils his task, whereas the evil servant has the incorrect idea that His Lord has delayed His coming, and as a result loses faith and lives an evil life, and is cut in sunder by His Lord. The virgins appear to be Christians who again had wrong ideas about their Lord’s return, probably through wrong teaching, and had not prepared for the darkness of the last days. This is a very definite Christian truth, which is addressed to all of the Church of Christ.
f) Jesus warns us that Christians will have to persevere in prayer or they will faint and lose their faith in Him. Luke 18v1-8. Jesus speaks of an elect who are crying day and night for deliverance, and of a God that will avenge the sufferings of His elect at the hands of the wicked. This is certainly not the kind of language that we would expect if we are sure to miss the tribulation. Those who endure as far as the rapture are those who have prayed and not fainted, but many will backslide, and Jesus warns us, “and when the Son of Man cometh, shall He find faith on the earth?” Luke 17v34-36, 18v8, Matt 24v12,13, Rev 13v10, 16v15.
Paul states in Rom 11v5,6, that people have to believe in Jesus to receive the “election of grace.” Paul was heartbroken that most of Israel were blinded by unbelief, and in becoming enemies of Jesus and His Church,. were “broken off” from their promises and election, Rom 9v31-33, 10v3,21, 11v7-10,20,28. However, in Rom 11v25,26,28, Paul states that the promises given to Abraham and his faithful seed will be fulfilled. The Jews are beloved for their forefather's sakes, and God will keep His covenant promises to faithful Jews. Exodus 3v14-16. God gave the Israelites His word, and godly Jews are loved and precious to Him; and when they are presented with a sign-attested Gospel they often respond to the truth in Jesus. God has always given the Jews time to consider His Word, and has invited them to reason with Him. God welcomes scarlet sinners, both Jews and Gentiles, with sweet forgiving reasonableness. Isaiah 1v18.
We see from Acts 10v1-48, N.B. v34,35, that, “In truth God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.” Cornelius was justified on an Old Testament basis, and he was loved, acceptable, and precious to God, even before He heard the Gospel; and so are godly Jews. Paul states that there is now no difference between Jew and Greek, the elect consists of those who call on the Lord to save them. Rom 10v8-14, N.B. v13. Matt 1v21. In Christ, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” Gal 3v28. No one can be among the New Testament “elect” unless they believe in Jesus as Saviour. John 6v37,45,53, 8v24,42, 1Thess 1v4, 2Peter 1v10, 1John 5v9-13, 1Peter 1v9-12.
Some have stated that Matt 24 and Thess 4v13 to 5v5 are different events, one speaking of a coming in glory and the other speaking of a secret rapture. However, though their aim was different, Matt 24 was given to show the signs of Christ's coming and the end of the age, and 1Thess 4v13 to 5v5 was given to comfort and challenge the relatives of departed believers, they are both speaking of the same event, they both use the same descriptive language, they speak of angelic powers, a great voice, a great trumpet, the clouds of heavenly glory, and the elect being gathered and caught up to meet their Lord.
From the above points it is absolutely clear that Matt 24 is addressed to the Church of Christ, and that there will be a post-tribulation advent of Christ and rapture of the Church.
I don't see how that it is any more a problem for one futurist interpretation than another. John sees figures from future events in Revelation. Even a preterist would likely acknowledge that. John sees people from various nations who came out of the great tribulation in Revelation 7 (I believe.) The language is similar to the passage you quoted. So he is seeing people who will exist in the future. This would be the state of individuals in the future even for a preterist, but also for a pre-tribber or post-tribber. In any of these views, these people haven't passed through the tribulation. John lived at some point in the first century, some time before 100 AD when he saw all those things, a point in time before the bema seat. So yes, it is an interesting issue. John sees into the future. But it is the same issue for every eschatological approach I know anything about.
Why would Paul write these verses if the church will not be here for the day of the Lord?
1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
2 Corinthians 1:14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
In II Thessalonians 1, in 'that day' Jesus gives the church rest, also.
Where is your evidence that the day of the Lord preceeds the rapture? You lost me there. I don't see why you consider this a problem.
Where is there anything about a rapture before the parousia in scripture? Is there any scripture that posits or hints at a pre-trib rapture? It's kind of like purgatory or limbo. There is nothing in the 66 books to indicate that there is purgatory for Christians who die in sin or some kind of nonsuffering part of hell or purgatory for unbaptized babies to go to, but people in the RCC saw those issues as theological problems and developed doctrines to deal with what they thought were difficult issues in scripture.
So in this thread, I see people using the pre-trib rapture this way. They can't show any Biblical passages that teaches the pre-rapture without a really strange reinterpretation. It's just a doctrine people argue for based on passages of scripture they consider to be difficult otherwise, like the idea that God couldn't have the church on the earth when the tribulation is going on because 'ye are not appointed unto wrath but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.'
John isn't in sync with the timeline, so how is this a real issue, especially since there is no actual scripture that preaches pre-trib. It's being used like purgatory-- a theological construct not taught in scripture argued for by perceived 'problems' with a straightforward reading of the test.
There is also the question of whether the golden vials with the prayers of the saints are where the elders are getting the song. If they are singing the prayer of the saints in that passage, then that's another thing we should consider.[/quote][/QUOTE]
"The Day of the Lord" [not "the Day of Christ/our Lord Jesus Christ"/etc] is an "EARTHLY time period [of MUCH duration]"... Paul in 2Th is having to write to the Thessalonians (who were also at the time experiencing ONGOING, and VERY NEGATIVE 'persecutions and tribulations' per 1:4) in order to say to them (basically), v.2 - 'don't let anyone convince you that 'the Day of the Lord' IS PRESENT [perfect indicative]"... it wasn't and he tells WHY, v.3 "that day [the DOTL earthly time period of 'judgments-followed-by-blessings' (from VERSE 2)] will NOT be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* [the *EVENT* (OUR EVENT!) from VERSE 1, here!] and the man of sin BE REVEALED [that's at the START of the 7-yr period!]..."
From Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon (1895 or something): "apostasia--later form for apostasis" [i.e. "a standing away [from a previous standing]" or, DEPARTURE... here, "THE DEPARTURE"--the one Paul just wrote of in VERSE 1!]
[I just wrote of the "stasis G4714" word in previous post; note that 8 of its 9 mentions are "NEGATIVES" but not here in Heb9:8-9! -- https://biblehub.com/greek/4714.htm ]
Paul also wrote Timothy that many would DEPART from the faith. Jesus said that the love of many would wax cold.
In that same chapter, that wicked one is destroyed at the brightness of the Lord's coming. I Thessalonians sets the rapture at the Lord's coming.
It does not make sense to say that the rapture cannot occur until the man of sin be revealed, then say that the man of sin will be revealed at the brighteness Lord's coming, and also to say that the rapture occurs at the Lord's coming-- certainly not if the man of sin is around for 7 or 3.5 years. The pretribbers also have a strange interpretation of this:
II Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
Pretribbers believe in the gathering unto Jesus, then the coming of the Lord seven years later, or else 'coming' here means something different from what it means elsewhere in the passage.
There is no reason to think that the 'departing' is a pre-trib rapture taught nowhere in scripture when Paul uses that terminology to describe people departing from the faith.
The text doesn't say that "the man of sin WILL BE REVEALED *at* the BRIGHTNESS of His Coming"... it says (instead):
v.8 "And then the lawless one will be revealed [that's at the START of the 7-yr period], whom the Lord Jesus WILL [future tense] consume with the breath of His mouth and WILL [future tense] annul by the appearing of His coming" (not His "episynagogues UNTO HIM" at our Rapture event! NO ONE ELSE will *SEE* Him there, except for WE/"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" having been "CAUGHT UP/AWAY" UNTO HIM there... others [the as yet "unsaved" persons] on the earth will THEREAFTER either succumb to "the LIE/the pseudei/what is FALSE" OR be among those who will come to believe what is TRUE -- the two distinct "beliefs" [CONTRASTED in this SECTION] that ppl will come to believe "IN THAT DAY" [not speaking in that context of "THIS PRESENT AGE [singular]" but "IN THAT DAY/the DOTL" [earthly] time period [which FOLLOWS our Rapture/THE DEPARTURE spoken of in 2:1!])
Verse 8a is at the START of the trib; 8b is at the END of the trib
The passage expresses the ENTIRE "7-yr period" (not just the END; not just the MIDDLE; but also the START of those 7-yrs!)
The Olivet Discourse is not covering the Subject of "our Rapture" (at all), but what will commence to unfold upon the earth FOLLOWING our Rapture. [except for several verses of the Olivet Discourse, found in Luke 21:12-24a about the events of 70ad; with 24b following on from there/that point-in-time]. The Subject there has to do with the "future, limited, specific time-period leading UP TO Christ's Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [promised to Israel]" which will commence upon His "RETURN" there [i.e. TO THE EARTH]." (Nothing whatsoever about our Rapture [IN THE AIR], in the Olivet Discourse, per context. Our Rapture is NOT being covered there.)
Their Q of Him in Matt24:3 was based on what He'd ALREADY spoken to them about in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50... "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" when the "angels will REAP"
"The beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" Jesus spoke of there, are parallel [/the same thing as] "the SEALS" of Rev6, at the START of that future, specific, limited time period (aka what we usually call "the tribulation period" [7-yrs/70th-Wk], not merely "the GREAT tribulation," which is defined as "the second half [3.5 yrs]" ONLY [and that part of it starts at mid-trib, aka "the 5th Trumpet/1st Woe [unto the earth]"]). But way back at the START of the 7-yrs (at "SEAL #1 / the INITIAL/1st "birth PANG [SINGULAR; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 ; 1Th5:2-3]) is when the tribulation period, as a whole, STARTS... when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13; Rev5:6 [Lam2:3-4 paralleling the wording of 2Th2:7b-8a]). More... but not wanting to post too much at one sitting
No. The wording in 2Th1:7 says (instead), "to you being oppressed REST/REPOSE WITH US *IN THE REVELATION* of the Lord Jesus from heaven, with His mighty angels" (the word "when" is not in the verse, nor the idea of "WILL RECEIVE when" [in the verse]...
but simply, "rest/repose with us IN THE REVELATION of the Lord Jesus from heaven..." as more of a statement of fact, than to say "WILL RECEIVE when..." which is not found in the text: https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/1-7.htm … and keeping in mind that He will "STAND to JUDGE" at the START of the 7-yr period [Isa3:13, Rev5:6 [at the time of opening SEAL #1], [Lam2:3-4 paralleling the wording of 2Th2:7b-8a; and note the "wrath" words in the Lam2 context, as well as the "STOOD/STANDING" word in v.4 (parallel the wording similar in Isa3:13, Rev5:6 at the START of the 7-yr trib)]).
Ok fine, so according to you Matthew 24 does not at all cover the rapture but the rapture will commence or happen after the events happen from Matthew 24. So my question still stands at vs3, "What will be the sign of your coming, and the end of the world?" You cannot get out of the dilemma you put yourself in with the words, "end of the world."
Now, let me address Matthew 13 and the verses you presented. Matthew 13:39, "and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, THE HARVEST IS AT THE END OF THE WORLD, and the reapers are the angels." And at Matthew 13:49 which you gave, "So it will be at the END OF THE WORLD.
These two verses are completly consistent with the disciples question at Matthew 24:3 and consistent with the events that Jesus described at Matthew 24:30-31. Also with 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 1 Thess. 1:16. Look what else Jesus said at John 6:39, "Amd this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I will lose nothing, BUT RAISE IT UP ON THE LAST DAY." And John 6:40, "and I Myself will raise him up ON THE LAST DAY." And vs44, "I WILL RAISE HIM UP ON THE LAST DAY." Or 1 Corinthians 15:52, "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMPET."
How come there are so many "LAST" watermark? Where is the rapture? I too looked up Strong on the word relief/rest. The word used is "repose" and this is what it says,
"
Transliteration
anesis
Pronunciation
ä'-ne-sēs (Key)
Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From ἀνίημι (G447)
Greek Inflections of ἄνεσις [?]
mGNT
5x in 2 unique form(s) TR
5x in 2 unique form(s) LXX
2x in 1 unique form(s)
ἄνεσιν — 4x
ἄνεσις — 1x
ἄνεσιν — 4x
ἄνεσις — 1x
ἄνεσιν — 2x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
TDNT Reference: 1:367,60
Trench's Synonyms: xli. ἀνάπαυσις, ἄνεσις.
Strong's Info
Strong’s Definitions
ἄνεσις ánesis, an'-es-is; from G447; relaxation or (figuratively) relief:—eased, liberty, rest.
KJV Translation Count — Total: 5x
The KJV translates Strong's G425 in the following manner: rest (3x), liberty (1x), be eased (1x).
KJV Translation Count — Total: 5x
The KJV translates Strong's G425 in the following manner: rest (3x), liberty (1x), be eased (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
- a loosening, relaxing
- spoken of a more tolerable condition in captivity, to be held in less vigorous confinement
- relief, rest, from persecutions
Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
ἄνεσις ánesis, an'-es-is; from G447; relaxation or (figuratively) relief:—eased, liberty, rest.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?] (Jump to Scripture Index)
STRONGS NT 425: ἄνεσις
ἄνεσις, -εως, ἡ, (ἀνίημι to let loose, slacken, anything tense, e. g. a bow), a loosening, relaxing; spoken of a more tolerable condition in captivity: ἔχειν ἄνεσιν, to be held in less rigorous confinement [R. V. have indulgence], Acts 24:23 (Josephus, Antiquities 18, 6, 10 φυλακὴ μὲν γὰρ καὶ τήρησις ἦν, μετὰ μέντοι ἀνέσεως τῆς εἰς δίαιταν). relief, rest, from persecutions, 2 Thessalonians 1:7; from the troubles of poverty, 2 Corinthians 8:13; relief from anxiety, quiet, 2 Corinthians 2:13 (2 Cor 2:12); 2 Cor 7:5. (Sept.; in Greek writings from Thucydides [Herodotus 5, 28] down.)
[Synonym: see ἀνάπαυσις, at the end.]"
And your right, the word "when" is not in the text so the literal reading is, "and to give "repose/rest" to you who are afflicted and to us as well AT THE REVELATION OF THE LORD JESUS." The text does not need the word "when." The "gist" of the verse without "when" is stll telling us that these things will happen at return/revealed revelation of the Lord Jesus. Again, no rapture, only a second coming at the end of the world.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
The phrase is "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" (not speaking of "UP IN Heaven") and this speaks of "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" (promised to Israel... who [many of] WILL be coming to faith WITHIN the trib yrs [FOLLOWING "our Rapture/THE Departure/Relocation!"] and it is THESE who are [in THIS context] "the elect" who will be "gathered" into one place ON THE EARTH, at the END of the trib!
Compare Matthew 24:29-31 with Isaiah 27:12-13, where those of Israel will be "gathered ONE BY ONE" [NOT "AS ONE" as is true of "our Rapture"!] and by angels HE SHALL *SEND* to do so, at the "GREAT trumpet," and for THEM to "worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM"! (this is "EARTHLY," at the commencement of the MK age... just like in Isa24:21-22[23] and Daniel 7:[25]27, and other such passages...
Not what *I* said, if that's what you are suggesting.
I said ALL of Matthew 24 takes place FOLLOWING "our Rapture"!! ("the beginning of birth pangs [plural]" being EQUIVALENT to the SEALS of Rev6! We are "gone" BEFORE the INITIAL one!! i.e. BEFORE "the DOTL can BE PRESENT to unfold upon the earth")