Not By Works

[VCO]

It isn't, but that hardly means we don't have to have the will to be saved to be saved.

I'm kind of disappointed with your responses. You don't seem to have much to say beyond 'no that's not true'.

And I sense you are thoroughly hardened in your once saved always saved point of view. I have never seen more hardened and obstinate indoctrinations than I have in the once saved always saved group. It's impossible to talk about it with that crowd, they are so thoroughly blinded by it in all it's various forms.

Even though many people are not Calvinists, they stick pretty hard to the part of Calvinism that says we're all just a bunch of robots and we don't do anything but just go along for the ride. There's really no point in talking to people who believe that. It's probably the most blinding teaching in the church these days. It started with Augustine, picked up steam with Luther and Calvin, and now the leaven of that teaching has worked it's way very far into the dough, except now with the completely blasphemous teaching that you don't even have to still trust in Christ and can be in outright unbelief and rejection of Christ and you are still saved. As discouraging as that is, I know there are still the few who find the narrow road that leads to life. Ultimately, once saved always saved doctrine doesn't take a person there. It takes them in the opposite direction, all the while making them think they're on the straight and narrow. The few will see that, though.

You have NO GLUE of what we ACTUALLY BELIEVE, DO YOU? YOUR THEORY ABOUT WANT WE ACTUALLY BELIEVE IF PLUM FULL OF MUD. IT IS DOWN RIGHT LAUGHABLE, IS THAT WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN TAUGHT, LOL,

Your teachers do not even have a CLUE what we actually TEACH.

Now you have to read the rest of this post, so you will not embarrass yourself any more. I will give you the condensed version, if you are wise you will trashcan all of your presuppositions, about our beliefs, because they truly are a JOKE.

We Teach that a person is not saved by righteous works, or even Christian Water Baptism. IT IS THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO (BAPTIZES) OR IMMERSES US INTO THE SPIRITUAL BODY OF CHRIST HIMSELF that SAVES, AFTER You have a deep, mournful confessions, as the Holy Spirit comes into our heart, births your once dead Human Spirit, into eternal life, pouring GOD's LOVE directly into our HEARTS (Human Spirit). That changes our Human Spirit step, by step to BE IN TUNE WITH GOD's WILL, as we OUT OF THE LOVE HE POURED INTO OUR HEARTS, strive to LOVE HIM BACK BY OUR OBEDIENCE. THAT IS RIGHT, WE LOVE GOD, because GOD LOVED US FIRST. True Biblical Obedience is ALWAYS Motivated by AGAPE LOVE, that is GOD's LOVE that the Holy Spirit poured into our HEARTS. Our wants, desires, and our NEW CHARACTER of our Born Again Human Spirit is CHANGED by HIS LOVE IN US. He speaks to us mostly through HIS WORD, sometimes through Thoughts, and even on rare occasions through audible communication. We KNOW we are Born Again, by OUR LOVE FOR HIM, and For the Brethren. ALMOST ALL OF US CAN POINT TO MULTIPLE SPECIFIC INSTANCES WERE WE CAN SEE GOD WAS TOTALLY INVOLVED IN OUR LIVES. MOST OF US ARE INVOLVED IN SOME TYPE OF MINISTRY, AS WE LOVE OTHER PEOPLE. JESUS IS MY CLOSEST FRIEND, and I COMMUNICATE WITH HIM DAILY. ALL OF US CAN SEE HOW HE IS SPIRITUALLY MATURING US LEAPS AND BOUNDS. Most of us, genuinely take this portion of Scripture to HEART:

John 10:27-28 (HCSB)
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.

Matthew 25:33-46 (HCSB)
33 He will put the sheep on His right and the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you took care of Me; I was in prison and you visited Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink?
38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or without clothes and clothe You?
39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and visit You?’
40 “And the King will answer them, ‘I assure you: Whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’
41 Then He will also say to those on the left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels!
42 For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger and you didn’t take Me in; I was naked and you didn’t clothe Me, sick and in prison and you didn’t take care of Me.’
44 “Then they too will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or without clothes, or sick, or in prison, and not help You?’
45 “Then He will answer them, ‘I assure you: Whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me either.’
46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Do you see the LIES you have been taught about our Beliefs. If you want the expanded version of our beliefs, I can give you examples of those beliefs that we have.

 

[PS]

Thanks for clarifying.

Just another few questions if you don't mind.

Does not your response indicate that Jesus will not lose anyone whom God has given him? After all he will seek them out and bring them back.

If so does he not already know who are his and will be saved?
No point seeking the non saved to bring them back to still being non saved.

I also noticed that the response to me says "I see you have one from Hebrews 6 in your post" I can't see that in my post to you.

I'm not trying to trip you up here.
But there are many against OSAS or E/S who wrote Hebrews 6 for their case yet believe a person can be restored but the passage clearly says they cannot.

So if you don't mind can you clarify the situation described in Hebrews for me.

Ta

Bill

Correct, Jesus will not lose anyone the Father gave him.

The people we are talking about here are those who followed Jesus and later, deliberately, and after thinking about it, deny Jesus. (Peter is the exception) Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Whether or not they believed before, or whether they accepted Jesus as their saviour and then fell by the wayside, matters not, their end is the same. The message or warning is given to believers, and believe you me, people do change.

 

[PS]

The First requirement of salvation is that we believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. That holds true for the whole of our lifetime. Those who wander astray will be sought after by the Good Shepherd but there are a few rebellious one, who perhaps with the best of intentions, like the Galatians will fall astray, and as it says in Gal 5:4 their life with Jesus is finished. Basically they are denying the finished work of Christ by going back to a works based salvation. Their falling away is not even deliberate, their faith in God is firm, they just do not trust in the finished work of Christ, and by going back they deny the resurrection conquering power of Jesus, hence the warnings.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Correct, Jesus will not lose anyone the Father gave him.

The people we are talking about here are those who followed Jesus and later, deliberately, and after thinking about it, deny Jesus. (Peter is the exception) Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Whether or not they believed before, or whether they accepted Jesus as their saviour and then fell by the wayside, matters not, their end is the same. The message or warning is given to believers, and believe you me, people do change.

Yep they do

people of true faith (like peter) may out of fear mess up sometimes, but comeback because their faith is real

others, like those who left. Had no real saving faith, they were looking for king messiah, not savior jesus, and when they found out jesus was not who they thought he was, they left.
people do this in church all the time, they think if they go, this or that will happen, when they find out it does not, they walk away

its because as John said, they were never of us, their faith was selfish, and when things did not go the way they thought they should go, they left. And denied Christ.
well they never trusted him to begin with, they trusted a pseudo Christ who was not real, or religion or whatever it was, which will always fail and when they realise their faith is not in something to be trusted, they run.

Not because they lost salvation, they never had it.

and yes, like the Bible, we should warn these people it is dangerous to trust in something not real, to seek to:find the true Christ and why you need him, because if not, you will fall away and end up in a worse situation, because you had grace in your hands and let it slip away because you had no faith, you just believed, but your faith was not real, it was dead.

 

[Judges1318]

Jesus is the Great Physician, and He makes house calls, thus no cancelled appointments. 😎

One of His own, falling completely backward into unbelief and back to the slavery of sin (but still saved) is somehow testimony to Christ being the Great Physician who never fails and who makes house calls and has no cancelled appointments? He can't do better than that for those people?

 

[Judges1318]

You have NO GLUE of what we ACTUALLY BELIEVE, DO YOU? YOUR THEORY ABOUT WANT WE ACTUALLY BELIEVE IF PLUM FULL OF MUD. IT IS DOWN RIGHT LAUGHABLE, IS THAT WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN TAUGHT, LOL,

Your teachers do not even have a CLUE what we actually TEACH.

...if you are wise you will trashcan all of your presuppositions, about our beliefs, because they truly are a JOKE.

I'm just going by what once saved always saved people say. That's where I get what once saved always saved beliefs are. And I remember what they USED to be. I guess it turned out those beliefs weren't true after all and had to be changed to what they are now. But surely the new beliefs are definitely true, right?

We Teach that a person is not saved by righteous works, or even Christian Water Baptism. IT IS THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO (BAPTIZES) OR IMMERSES US INTO THE SPIRITUAL BODY OF CHRIST HIMSELF that SAVES, AFTER You have a deep, mournful confessions, as the Holy Spirit comes into our heart, births your once dead Human Spirit, into eternal life, pouring GOD's LOVE directly into our HEARTS (Human Spirit). That changes our Human Spirit step, by step to BE IN TUNE WITH GOD's WILL...

How does going step by step back to not believing in Christ (but still being saved) even remotely resemble what you just said? The once saved always saved God is not very powerful. He's not as great a doctor as they say he is. His patients can flat line but He tells them they're still alive.

MOST OF US ARE INVOLVED IN SOME TYPE OF MINISTRY, AS WE LOVE OTHER PEOPLE. JESUS IS MY CLOSEST FRIEND, and I COMMUNICATE WITH HIM DAILY. ALL OF US CAN SEE HOW HE IS SPIRITUALLY MATURING US LEAPS AND BOUNDS.

...except if you're one of his who have fallen by leaps and bounds away from Christ and back into unbelief.....but who still thinks he is saved.

And trust me (not directed at you) I know all about once saved always saved hypocrites who are in ministry.

Most of us, genuinely take this portion of Scripture to HEART:

John 10:27-28 (HCSB)
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.

No, people have been saying His sheep can stop believing in Him and they are still saved. How is that them hearing his voice, Him knowing them, and them following him, and them never perishing? Why was he not able to keep them? Or is the 'keeping' of them in name only and not in deed?

Do you see the LIES you have been taught about our Beliefs. If you want the expanded version of our beliefs, I can give you examples of those beliefs that we have.

I'm just going by what people are saying in this forum.

Your group may have these particular beliefs about love and obedience that you point out, but they do not put them into practice. And they are okay with that thinking they are still saved despite their unbelieving lives. Once saved always saved has blinded them to Jesus' own words about the destruction waiting for those who love him in word only and not in deed and do not put what he teaches into practice, all the while thinking they know him when in fact their lives show they do not.

Grace does not make it so you can leave Christ in unbelief and still know him at the same time. Now maybe you can see the LIES once saved always saved people have been believing. Open your eyes, friends.

 

[PS]

Yep they do

people of true faith (like peter) may out of fear mess up sometimes, but comeback because their faith is real

others, like those who left. Had no real saving faith, they were looking for king messiah, not savior jesus, and when they found out jesus was not who they thought he was, they left.
people do this in church all the time, they think if they go, this or that will happen, when they find out it does not, they walk away

its because as John said, they were never of us, their faith was selfish, and when things did not go the way they thought they should go, they left. And denied Christ.
well they never trusted him to begin with, they trusted a pseudo Christ who was not real, or religion or whatever it was, which will always fail and when they realise their faith is not in something to be trusted, they run.

Not because they lost salvation, they never had it.

and yes, like the Bible, we should warn these people it is dangerous to trust in something not real, to seek to:find the true Christ and why you need him, because if not, you will fall away and end up in a worse situation, because you had grace in your hands and let it slip away because you had no faith, you just believed, but your faith was not real, it was dead.

.
Can you say that about these people:
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

i. Enlightened: This ancient Greek word has the same meaning as the English word. These people have experienced the light of God shining upon them.

ii. Tasted: This word speaks of a full, real experience (as in how Jesus tasted death in Heb_2:9). The heavenly gift is probably salvation (Rom_6:23 and Eph_2:8).

iii. Partakers of the Holy Spirit is a unique term, having to do with receiving the Holy Spirit and having fellowship with the Holy Spirit.

iv. Tasted the good word of God means they have experienced the goodness of God’s word, and have seen its work in their lives.

v. The powers of the age of come is a way to describe God’s supernatural power. The ones written of here have indeed tasted of these powers.

(David Guzik)

 

[Lightskin]

One of His own, falling completely backward into unbelief and back to the slavery of sin (but still saved) is somehow testimony to Christ being the Great Physician who never fails and who makes house calls and has no cancelled appointments? He can't do better than that for those people?

Please describe better, because the scenario you depict proclaims the magnitude of God’s grace, and it simply doesn’t get any better than that.

 

[VCO]

I'm just going by what once saved always saved people say. That's where I get what once saved always saved beliefs are. And I remember what they USED to be. I guess it turned out those beliefs weren't true after all and had to be changed to what they are now. But surely the new beliefs are definitely true, right?



How does going step by step back to not believing in Christ (but still being saved) even remotely resemble what you just said? The once saved always saved God is not very powerful. He's not as great a doctor as they say he is. His patients can flat line but He tells them they're still alive.



...except if you're one of his who have fallen by leaps and bounds away from Christ and back into unbelief.....but who still thinks he is saved.

And trust me (not directed at you) I know all about once saved always saved hypocrites who are in ministry.



No, people have been saying His sheep can stop believing in Him and they are still saved. How is that them hearing his voice, Him knowing them, and them following him, and them never perishing? Why was he not able to keep them? Or is the 'keeping' of them in name only and not in deed?



I'm just going by what people are saying in this forum.

Your group may have these particular beliefs about love and obedience that you point out, but they do not put them into practice. And they are okay with that thinking they are still saved despite their unbelieving lives. Once saved always saved has blinded them to Jesus' own words about the destruction waiting for those who love him in word only and not in deed and do not put what he teaches into practice, all the while thinking they know him when in fact their lives show they do not.

Grace does not make it so you can leave Christ in unbelief and still know him at the same time. Now maybe you can see the LIES once saved always saved people have been believing. Open your eyes, friends.

Your MOTIVES are all wrong, if you seek to Save yourself through working for it, or to Preserve Salvation.

We LOVE HIM with AGAPE LOVE, the LOVE HE POURED into our Hearts, and our Brethren because HE SAVED US PERMANENTLY WHEN WE FIRST GENUINELY BELIEVED.

That LOVE IN US, WILL be in the form of WANTING to OBEY HIM, Striving to be LIKE HIM.

It is all about RIGHT MOTIVES, We do not work for Salvation, and We do not Strive to Preserve Salvation.

BUT WE DO LOVE HIM, because HE WILL COMPLETE THE SALVATION HE BEGAN IN US.

You are teaching a FALSE GOSPEL of Salvation.

 

[Hevosmies]

Lights out.

Thats the best thing you've ever posted. TRUE! Your lights ARE out.

 

[PS]

The top line of my signature:
Your life with Jesus Christ is finished if you try to be made right with God through the law, (Gal 5:4 ERV)

We can be rejected. Even if someone is working hard at their salvation, there is no guarantee they will be with Christ in heavens glory.

.
When people Red Cross scripture like the one below, we know we are in a bad place!

Listen! I, Paul, am telling you that if you allow yourselves to be circumcised, the Messiah will be of
no benefit to you. Again, I insist that everyone who allows himself to be circumcised is obligated to
Obey the entire Law. Those of you who are trying to be justified by the Law have been cut off
from the Messiah. You have fallen away from grace. (Gal 5:2-4 ISV)

​

 

[EleventhHour]

.
Can you say that about these people:
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

i. Enlightened: This ancient Greek word has the same meaning as the English word. These people have experienced the light of God shining upon them.

ii. Tasted: This word speaks of a full, real experience (as in how Jesus tasted death in Heb_2:9). The heavenly gift is probably salvation (Rom_6:23 and Eph_2:8).

iii. Partakers of the Holy Spirit is a unique term, having to do with receiving the Holy Spirit and having fellowship with the Holy Spirit.

iv. Tasted the good word of God means they have experienced the goodness of God’s word, and have seen its work in their lives.

v. The powers of the age of come is a way to describe God’s supernatural power. The ones written of here have indeed tasted of these powers.

(David Guzik)

Context please

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


They were saved, most definitely, however you are not understanding the what the writer is stating.

What is impossible is to be brought back to repentance (be born again ... a one time event) once again, to do so would be stating the one time sacrifice of the cross was insufficient and by doing so they were putting Jesus to open shame.

This verse actually affirms that if we should fall away from grace (walking in the Spirit) we are still saved because Christ gives a new birth once and it is everlasting and does not need to be repeated and actually cannot be repeated so move on to maturity in Christ rather than trying to remain as babes in the new birth!!!

You have no verse to support your faulty doctrine... I suggest you abandon that "loss of salvation ship" before it is too late because it has many holes in it!!!

 

[EleventhHour]

Amen...if we BELIEVE NOT, he abides faithful because he cannot deny himself <--written to believers

My Lord said he will begin, finish and COMPLETE his work of faith in me.....

Their god must be weak, ineffectual, inept and not found in the bible if they must help him cross the finish line

If we BELIEVE NOT, he abides faithful because he cannot deny himself

Really what else is there to say...... a powerful reminder of how faithful, gracious, loving and victorious our Savior truly IS.

 

[PS]

Context please

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


They were saved, most definitely, however you are not understanding the what the writer is stating.

What is impossible is to be brought back to repentance (be born again ... a one time event) once again, to do so would be stating the one time sacrifice of the cross was insufficient and by doing so they were putting Jesus to open shame.

This verse actually affirms that if we should fall away from grace (walking in the Spirit) we are still saved because Christ gives a new birth once and it is everlasting and does not need to be repeated and actually cannot be repeated so move on to maturity in Christ rather than trying to remain as babes in the new birth!!!

You have no verse to support your faulty doctrine... I suggest you abandon that "loss of salvation ship" before it is too late because it has many holes in it!!!

.
They were apostates. They had abandoned their faith.

And you people say "Once saved always saved."

That is not true.

 

[EleventhHour]

.


They were apostates. They had abandoned their faith.

God does not reveal scripture to those who disagree with Him, I have learned this is a profound truth.

 

[PS]

God does not reveal scripture to those who disagree with Him, I have learned this is a profound truth.

Obviously! Your eyes need opening.

 

[Lightskin]

God does not reveal scripture to those who disagree with Him, I have learned this is a profound truth.

The seminary I attended was filled with wolves in sheep‘s clothing. They were in seminary for one reason, to get behind the pulpit and push their leftist social agendas.

One of their favorite sayings was, “one spirit, multiple messages.” When they were countered that God is not the author of confusion they would point fingers and accuse biblically-based people of faith of being the ones confused.

 

[EleventhHour]

Obviously! Your eyes need opening.

If you only knew my life story.... you would know nothing could be further from the truth.... and my eyes are open to your false gospel as well, Praise God!!

 

[EleventhHour]

The seminary I attended was filled with wolves in sheep‘s clothing. They were in seminary for one reason, to get behind the pulpit and push their leftist social agendas.

One of their favorite sayings was, “one spirit, multiple messages.” When they were countered that God is not the author of confusion they would point fingers and accuse biblically-based people of faith of being the ones confused.

The word TRAGIC applies for sure!!

I agree the wolves are all on sides... the legalists, the liberals and the subtle deceivers the most troubling of all.

 

[PS]

The seminary I attended was filled with wolves in sheep‘s clothing. They were in seminary for one reason, to get behind the pulpit and push their leftist social agendas.

One of their favorite sayings was, “one spirit, multiple messages.” When they were countered that God is not the author of confusion they would point fingers and accuse biblically-based people of faith of being the ones confused.

So I quote scripture and you red cross it....