sabbath

[Blik]

First, Christmas and Easter are irrelevant to the conversation. Some Christians observe Christmas, and some Christians do not. However, it is important to believe in the Incarnation and the Resurrection of the LORD. Both were monumental events that are central to Christianity, and that is why Sunday is observed by most Christians.

Second, the entire OT ceremonial system was composed of "reminders". Do you believe that they are applicable? Actually, they were reminders of their sinfulness largely.

Heb 10: 1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. 2Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

In fact, the Day of Atonement was a constant reminder of their sinfulness.

Does God want them to remember their sinfulness under the New Covenant, where cleansing has taken place?

I don't think so.

Read this description of the New Covenant:

Heb 8:
8For he finds fault with them when he says:c
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
9not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
11And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more.”

Judaizers are more concerned with remembering their sin, and that is what I believe the Mosaic Law customs do. They focus the person more on continuing sinfulness. That's exactly what the Mosaic Law did...which was appropriate until Christ, the final sacrifice, came along.

Colossians 2:16-17 has nothing to do with Christmas and Easter. As I demonstrated through comparison with Heb 10:1-4 and Heb 9:9-11, the same language is used in regards to the Mosaic Law.

Take the time to compare these verses, if you dare.

Christmas and Easter was not applied to Christ by that time, anyways, so you are not even making sense. Do you realize that Colossians was written prior the Fall of Jerusalem? And, it's an irrelevant conversation.

Whatever one's position is, regarding Christmas and Easter, is irrelevant to the continuance of Jewish holy days to the New Testament believer.

Regarding Genesis 2:1-3, I do not context that God ceased his creative activities on the seventh day. There's no evidence of Adam and Eve resting on this day, though. God ceased his activities and entered into his creative rest. A Sabbath was not instituted until the Mosaic Law, and this Sabbath rest pointed to the liberation of Israel from Egypt. They "worked" six days in bondage to Egypt, and their "rest" was associated with their liberation from Egypt (the Sabbath).

When it came to God, he created for six days, and he "ceased" on the seventh day. When it came to Israel, they were in bondage to sin six days, and they rested in liberation on the seventh day.

If you only read Exodus, you have an incomplete picture. If you also read Deuteronomy you will see it points to being a slave in Egypt, and then being liberated.

By the way there were other time periods that pointed to the same liberation, such as the seventh year where slaves were freed, and the 50th year where sold land was returned to the original owner or his family....a form of "liberation" in itself...but you don't find Judaizers wanting to observe those things, because they can't be implemented in the Christian community. The Christian community is not ancient Israel, and the land isn't distributed only to Christians.

Just like the Judaizers are confined to insisting that clean meat laws be followed, while ignoring all the other clean/unclean laws, they confine their calendar observances in the same way.

Why? Because they can't enact them. Israel was a unique community, and the same thing can't be implemented society-wide.

They will acknowledge that when forced to, yet they will insist that their patchwork quilt of laws is still applicable.

These sorts of things are why I am no longer a Judaizer. I came to understand their inconsistencies. And, like I said, it's pretty funny if it isn't tragic.

Regarding "believing in Jesus".....this is a vague statement. What do you believe about Jesus' life and mission? If you believe in a "different Jesus", yet you claim that you believe in Jesus, it doesn't avail you anything.

Do you believe in a Jesus who died a substitutionary death on the Cross for the sins of all mankind, whom the believer is united with, and shares in spiritual blessings due to this legal and spiritual/vital union? There is no salvation with a false Jesus.

Perhaps you are just a mixed up Christian who has been fooled by Judaizer doctrine..who knows? Time will tell.

My guess is that Judaizer theology hasn't prepared you to understand these statements, though.

Now you truly are going off on rocky ground. Claiming even that Christmas and Easter has nothing to do with dates.

To answer you would require that I not be christian, I am just not taking to time to even read all this stuff. I would like to go on record as telling you that to accuse, especially when it is about something you have manufactured, is not a godly discussion.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Now you truly are going off on rocky ground. Claiming even that Christmas and Easter has nothing to do with dates.

To answer you would require that I not be christian, I am just not taking to time to even read all this stuff. I would like to go on record as telling you that to accuse, especially when it is about something you have manufactured, is not a godly discussion.

Christmas and Easter have nothing to do with Col 2:16-17.

The chapter is addressing Judaizers with some element of ascetic tendencies.

It is obvious that those verses are linked to the Mosaic ceremonial Law.

I suggest that folks read Heb 10:1-4 and 9:9-11 to see the similarity in the language.

Those who claim that the weekly Sabbath and annual festivals are requirements for NT Christians are Judaizers.

They demand that NT Christians live by the Mosaic Law. However, they are inconsistent on their assertions, because they claim that certain elements are required, but others are not. For instance, usually clean meat laws are required observances, but they limit the scope of the unclean laws to the meats, and even then they are inconsistent because they do not destroy their cookware and ovens if an unclean animal touches them.

Additionally, they demand that Christians observe the weekly Sabbath, the annual festivals, but hardly ever mention the other observances such as the land sabbaths or jubilee year. Neither can be observed in a society with a mixture of believers and unbelievers. They were specific to ancient Israel, just like the rest of the calendar observances.

I would also claim that they, too, were linked to the animal sacrifices since multiple sacrifices were required on these days specifically.

So..like I said, examine the belief system of Judaizers for consistency and you will find they've created this patchwork quilt of observances that they judge others by, yet it is simply a patchwork quilt and does not cover all of the Mosaic Law. Their decisions are arbitrary.

And, if some would say, Paul observed these things..he attended synagogue on the Sabbath, for sure, and he observed voluntary elements of the Mosaic Law because he was brought up as a Jew. You won't find him demanding the observances of days or meat or physical circumcision among Gentiles, though...nor did he outlaw them amongst Jewish Christians. It was their culture, and their choice, and observance sometimes aided their evangelistic efforts to other Jews.

Judaizers are not critical thinkers. I became a critical thinker and realized their inconsistencies after a decade of belonging to them.

As I have said, I have no issue with those who want to meet on Saturday, or used Saturday as a worship day to the Lord, or refrain from eating certain meats without judging others. This is what Romans 14 is about. It's their choice.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

why is the sabbath not been kept by all Christians? I need guidance please

The question is not why Christian do not keep the Sabbath, the question is, why was the sabbath removed? As a believing Sephardic Jew, in my opinion, Rome wanted nothing to do with the Jews and the only way to separate themselves from the Jews was to do away with the Sabbath. The pope was given the authority to remove it, in other words, the pope put himself in the position of God and they still do.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

The question is not why Christian do not keep the Sabbath, the question is, why was the sabbath removed? As a believing Sephardic Jew, in my opinion, Rome wanted nothing to do with the Jews and the only way to separate themselves from the Jews was to do away with the Sabbath. The pope was given the authority to remove it, in other words, the pope put himself in the position of God and they still do.

This is amusing.

You need to read some books on church history.

There was no pope by the time frame that Christianity developed to the point that they knew the Mosaic Law was no longer in effect.

Most Christians were no longer observing the Sabbath by the early 130's AD and the Roman bishop was not a pope, claiming to be the first among bishops, until at least 300 years beyond that point.

The issue is not the Sabbath alone; the issue is the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law was no longer in effect, and days and diet were part of the ceremonial aspects of the Law.

I would suggest reading Galatians 3, 4, Ephesians 2:13-15, Acts 15, Hebrews 7, 8, 2 Corinthians 3, Romans 7:1-6.

The Sabbath was part of the Mosaic Law....

The question I would have is, why don't Sabbathkeepers observe the festivals, the new moons, the land Sabbath and the Jubilee year? I'd like to see them demand that their property be returned from the new owner every 49 years.

Additionally, why do they claim that the clean meat laws still apply, and not other clean/unclean laws? Do they break their pots or discard their ovens when a rat or mouse touches them?

Some Jews might; most "Torah observer" Christians do not.

By the way, in a sense, I believe in observing all of God's commandments that are applicable to ME, but not ancient Israel. So, I could call myself a "Torah observer" assuming that the word "Torah" is understood as "instruction" or "teaching"...but that does not mean that I observe clean/unclean meat laws and calendar observances and physical circumcision.

Additionally, some of the commandments are moral in nature, and reflect the image of God in man, so obviously those commandments are applicable.

In brief, though, my response is, why not look at the next level up, and ask yourself why the Mosaic Law is obsolete? That's the real question.

I would also argue that you don't keep the Sabbath, if you don't do it by the time frame of the Garden of Eden, because if you claim that a certain slot of time is holy, then it is the same time in any location...and most Sabbathkeepers don't do it that way..they observe the Sabbath when it is sundown in their region. If they are doing that, then they are making more than 24 hours holy time..it is more like 48 hours...observed in different parts of the globe. Did God make all 48 hours holy time, or not? If so, then why do you have an issue with Sunday observance?

The problem is that the Mosaic Law was for a specific people, in a specific region, during a specific time period (Moses to Christ) under a specific theonomy. This doesn't exist anymore.

By the way, non-Israelites did not have full rights under the Mosaic Covenant, even if they joined it...they did not have property rights. The properties reverted back to the original tribes. So, while some could join themselves to Israel, they did not have property rights. So, the Mosaic Covenant, and the full benefits of it, were not available to all.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

This is amusing.

You need to read some books on church history.

There was no pope by the time frame that Christianity developed to the point that they knew the Mosaic Law was no longer in effect.

Most Christians were no longer observing the Sabbath by the early 130's AD and the Roman bishop was not a pope, claiming to be the first among bishops, until at least 300 years beyond that point.

The issue is not the Sabbath alone; the issue is the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law was no longer in effect, and days and diet were part of the ceremonial aspects of the Law.

I would suggest reading Galatians 3, 4, Ephesians 2:13-15, Acts 15, Hebrews 7, 8, 2 Corinthians 3, Romans 7:1-6.

The Sabbath was part of the Mosaic Law....

The question I would have is, why don't Sabbathkeepers observe the festivals, the new moons, the land Sabbath and the Jubilee year? I'd like to see them demand that their property be returned from the new owner every 49 years.

Additionally, why do they claim that the clean meat laws still apply, and not other clean/unclean laws? Do they break their pots or discard their ovens when a rat or mouse touches them?

Some Jews might; most "Torah observer" Christians do not.

By the way, in a sense, I believe in observing all of God's commandments that are applicable to ME, but not ancient Israel. So, I could call myself a "Torah observer" assuming that the word "Torah" is understood as "instruction" or "teaching"...but that does not mean that I observe clean/unclean meat laws and calendar observances and physical circumcision.

Additionally, some of the commandments are moral in nature, and reflect the image of God in man, so obviously those commandments are applicable.

In brief, though, my response is, why not look at the next level up, and ask yourself why the Mosaic Law is obsolete? That's the real question.

I would also argue that you don't keep the Sabbath, if you don't do it by the time frame of the Garden of Eden, because if you claim that a certain slot of time is holy, then it is the same time in any location...and most Sabbathkeepers don't do it that way..they observe the Sabbath when it is sundown in their region. If they are doing that, then they are making more than 24 hours holy time..it is more like 48 hours...observed in different parts of the globe. Did God make all 48 hours holy time, or not? If so, then why do you have an issue with Sunday observance?

The problem is that the Mosaic Law was for a specific people, in a specific region, during a specific time period (Moses to Christ) under a specific theonomy. This doesn't exist anymore.

By the way, non-Israelites did not have full rights under the Mosaic Covenant, even if they joined it...they did not have property rights. The properties reverted back to the original tribes. So, while some could join themselves to Israel, they did not have property rights. So, the Mosaic Covenant, and the full benefits of it, were not available to all.

Additionally, allow me to note that it is very difficult to observe the Sabbath "sunset to sunset" as some claim it must be observed, as some locations on the globe have almost perpetual daytime or nighttime for months out of the year.

Know how Ellen G. White and the SDAs handled that? They basically outlawed SDAs living in those regions

And....there are people in certain locations amongst the SDAs who observe the Sabbath on one day, and someone living a short distance from them observe it on a different day, strictly due to their location on the globe.

So, there are all kinds of problems which develop once "Sabbathkeepers" outside of Palestine tried to maintain the Mosaic Law outside of the specific region of land. They had to develop rules to define what it means to keep the Sabbath, and those were human creations.

This all results from a fundamental failure to realize that the Mosaic covenant law was specific to:

1. a particular people (descendants of Abraham)
2. a particular location (Palestine)
3. a particular time period (Moses to Christ)
4. a particular form of government which enabled its enforcement (theonomy or some level of autonomy)

As I have said, foreigners did not have some of the rights of the Mosaic Covenant, such as permanent land ownership which reverts back to the specific tribes, although foreigners co-existed within Israel....they had a second-class status within the society.

All these difficulties force "Torah observers" to make various rules to keep their patchwork quilt coherent to them. That's the kind of inconsistencies that caused me to realize that Judaizers are making it up as they go along, and are not consistent.

Christianity is a universal faith that goes outside of the boundaries of Palestine, in contrast.

Note that I am claiming the Mosaic law, as a whole, is not in effect, although the underlying foundation, God's moral law, reflects God's image and a believer is being conformed to the image of Christ, so he would not want to violate those commandments, however their validity lies in the fact that they define the image of God/Christ as reflected in mankind.

So, in that respect, I uphold the moral law of God, of which the Mosaic Law was a vague shadow, and certainly the ceremonial aspects of the law, with the shadows and types, are very valuable and add great insight to the faith of Christianity.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

This is amusing.

You need to read some books on church history.

There was no pope by the time frame that Christianity developed to the point that they knew the Mosaic Law was no longer in effect.

Most Christians were no longer observing the Sabbath by the early 130's AD and the Roman bishop was not a pope, claiming to be the first among bishops, until at least 300 years beyond that point.

The issue is not the Sabbath alone; the issue is the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law was no longer in effect, and days and diet were part of the ceremonial aspects of the Law.

I would suggest reading Galatians 3, 4, Ephesians 2:13-15, Acts 15, Hebrews 7, 8, 2 Corinthians 3, Romans 7:1-6.

The Sabbath was part of the Mosaic Law....

The question I would have is, why don't Sabbathkeepers observe the festivals, the new moons, the land Sabbath and the Jubilee year? I'd like to see them demand that their property be returned from the new owner every 49 years.

Additionally, why do they claim that the clean meat laws still apply, and not other clean/unclean laws? Do they break their pots or discard their ovens when a rat or mouse touches them?

Some Jews might; most "Torah observer" Christians do not.

By the way, in a sense, I believe in observing all of God's commandments that are applicable to ME, but not ancient Israel. So, I could call myself a "Torah observer" assuming that the word "Torah" is understood as "instruction" or "teaching"...but that does not mean that I observe clean/unclean meat laws and calendar observances and physical circumcision.

Additionally, some of the commandments are moral in nature, and reflect the image of God in man, so obviously those commandments are applicable.

In brief, though, my response is, why not look at the next level up, and ask yourself why the Mosaic Law is obsolete? That's the real question.

I would also argue that you don't keep the Sabbath, if you don't do it by the time frame of the Garden of Eden, because if you claim that a certain slot of time is holy, then it is the same time in any location...and most Sabbathkeepers don't do it that way..they observe the Sabbath when it is sundown in their region. If they are doing that, then they are making more than 24 hours holy time..it is more like 48 hours...observed in different parts of the globe. Did God make all 48 hours holy time, or not? If so, then why do you have an issue with Sunday observance?

The problem is that the Mosaic Law was for a specific people, in a specific region, during a specific time period (Moses to Christ) under a specific theonomy. This doesn't exist anymore.

By the way, non-Israelites did not have full rights under the Mosaic Covenant, even if they joined it...they did not have property rights. The properties reverted back to the original tribes. So, while some could join themselves to Israel, they did not have property rights. So, the Mosaic Covenant, and the full benefits of it, were not available to all.

Let me elaborate on my statement, on March 7, 321, Roman Emperor Constantine issued a civil decree making Sunday a day of rest, to add to this the Catholic Church, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday” (The Catholic Mirror, official publication of James Cardinal Gibbons, Sept. 23, 1893).

Question, if the Sabbath was changed from Saturday to Sunday, then the Sabbath was never removed, just that man played God and decided to change it to another day, the question is why? The answer is that the Catholic church wanted nothing to do with the Jews and it is clear in the Acts of the Apostle that the expulsion of the Jews from Rome was taking place (Aquila and Priscilla). Why were the Jews being persecuted and driving out? Again, Rome wanted nothing to do with the Jews and they knew by changing the day from Saturday to Sunday they would separate themselves from God's chosen, the Jews. Daniel 7:25, it appears that this prophecy was fulfilled.

We are talking about the Ten Commandments, because most of what was commanded to the Jews to keep were shadows of what was to come and this was being fulfilled in Yeshua. The chapters prior to Yeshua making the statement that he came not to destroy, but to fulfill shows that he was fulfilling what was spoken of him.

By the way, even though God commanded the Jews to keep the Sabbath, Yeshua said, the Sabbath was given to man, man would imply that from the beginning the Sabbath was established. Now, the question that you will have to answer, if the Catholic church did not remove the Sabbath, but changed it, would that mean that the Sabbath is to be kept, but then who gave the Catholic church the authority to change the day? Scriptures so not state that it was change, neither does it state that the first day of the week the Sabbath is to be held. If you read the Acts to the Apostle, they were meeting on the Sabbath day, it never ceased, but man wants to play God. So, you can believe all you want, but you need to give me Scriptures that God change the day and if he changed it he went against his own words.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

Additionally, allow me to note that it is very difficult to observe the Sabbath "sunset to sunset" as some claim it must be observed, as some locations on the globe have almost perpetual daytime or nighttime for months out of the year.

Know how Ellen G. White and the SDAs handled that? They basically outlawed SDAs living in those regions

And....there are people in certain locations amongst the SDAs who observe the Sabbath on one day, and someone living a short distance from them observe it on a different day, strictly due to their location on the globe.

So, there are all kinds of problems which develop once "Sabbathkeepers" outside of Palestine tried to maintain the Mosaic Law outside of the specific region of land. They had to develop rules to define what it means to keep the Sabbath, and those were human creations.

This all results from a fundamental failure to realize that the Mosaic covenant law was specific to:

1. a particular people (descendants of Abraham)
2. a particular location (Palestine)
3. a particular time period (Moses to Christ)
4. a particular form of government which enabled its enforcement (theonomy or some level of autonomy)

As I have said, foreigners did not have some of the rights of the Mosaic Covenant, such as permanent land ownership which reverts back to the specific tribes, although foreigners co-existed within Israel....they had a second-class status within the society.

All these difficulties force "Torah observers" to make various rules to keep their patchwork quilt coherent to them. That's the kind of inconsistencies that caused me to realize that Judaizers are making it up as they go along, and are not consistent.

Christianity is a universal faith that goes outside of the boundaries of Palestine, in contrast.

Note that I am claiming the Mosaic law, as a whole, is not in effect, although the underlying foundation, God's moral law, reflects God's image and a believer is being conformed to the image of Christ, so he would not want to violate those commandments, however their validity lies in the fact that they define the image of God/Christ as reflected in mankind.

So, in that respect, I uphold the moral law of God, of which the Mosaic Law was a vague shadow, and certainly the ceremonial aspects of the law, with the shadows and types, are very valuable and add great insight to the faith of Christianity.

The Sabbath is not a burden and God never made it a burden and you can see this in the life of Yeshua when they accused him of breaking the Sabbath and he never broke it, but kept it. The Pharisees made it a burden and that was what Yeshua was pointing out. Now, we are to learn to keep it without allowing it to be a burden and as we walk after the Spirit the Spirit will fulfill the righteousness of the Law.

Though I believe that the Sabbath day is to be kept and it is not a burden, it is important to understand that the law does not justify a man, neither does it make one God's righteousness. We are made God's righteousness in Yeshua and saved by grace alone apart from the law, and if the law was able to justify or make one God's righteousness then why did Yeshua died? He died because the law could not justify a man, neither make man God's righteousness.

Again, man decided to change God's day from Saturday to Sunday and by doing so man actually removed the Sabbath from being held the correct day, which is Saturday and not Sunday.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

The Sabbath is not a burden and God never made it a burden and you can see this in the life of Yeshua when they accused him of breaking the Sabbath and he never broke it, but kept it. The Pharisees made it a burden and that was what Yeshua was pointing out. Now, we are to learn to keep it without allowing it to be a burden and as we walk after the Spirit the Spirit will fulfill the righteousness of the Law.

Though I believe that the Sabbath day is to be kept and it is not a burden, it is important to understand that the law does not justify a man, neither does it make one God's righteousness. We are made God's righteousness in Yeshua and saved by grace alone apart from the law, and if the law was able to justify or make one God's righteousness then why did Yeshua died? He died because the law could not justify a man, neither make man God's righteousness.

Again, man decided to change God's day from Saturday to Sunday and by doing so man actually removed the Sabbath from being held the correct day, which is Saturday and not Sunday.

How do you measure the time slot that you observe..by Palestinian time or by your own time, in your own area?

By the way, notice that my username is UnitedWithChrist, and yours is SundownSam. You identify yourself by the Sabbath. I identify myself by my union with Christ.

Enough said?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Let me elaborate on my statement, on March 7, 321, Roman Emperor Constantine issued a civil decree making Sunday a day of rest, to add to this the Catholic Church, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday” (The Catholic Mirror, official publication of James Cardinal Gibbons, Sept. 23, 1893).

Question, if the Sabbath was changed from Saturday to Sunday, then the Sabbath was never removed, just that man played God and decided to change it to another day, the question is why? The answer is that the Catholic church wanted nothing to do with the Jews and it is clear in the Acts of the Apostle that the expulsion of the Jews from Rome was taking place (Aquila and Priscilla). Why were the Jews being persecuted and driving out? Again, Rome wanted nothing to do with the Jews and they knew by changing the day from Saturday to Sunday they would separate themselves from God's chosen, the Jews. Daniel 7:25, it appears that this prophecy was fulfilled.

We are talking about the Ten Commandments, because most of what was commanded to the Jews to keep were shadows of what was to come and this was being fulfilled in Yeshua. The chapters prior to Yeshua making the statement that he came not to destroy, but to fulfill shows that he was fulfilling what was spoken of him.

By the way, even though God commanded the Jews to keep the Sabbath, Yeshua said, the Sabbath was given to man, man would imply that from the beginning the Sabbath was established. Now, the question that you will have to answer, if the Catholic church did not remove the Sabbath, but changed it, would that mean that the Sabbath is to be kept, but then who gave the Catholic church the authority to change the day? Scriptures so not state that it was change, neither does it state that the first day of the week the Sabbath is to be held. If you read the Acts to the Apostle, they were meeting on the Sabbath day, it never ceased, but man wants to play God. So, you can believe all you want, but you need to give me Scriptures that God change the day and if he changed it he went against his own words.

Firstly, the date was in 324 and not 321.


This is significant because it is often claimed by Sabbathkeepers that Constantine "changed the Sabbath".

He did not change the Sabbath in any way, shape or form. He allowed soldiers to rest on Sunday, whereas before that, they had no rest day. He did not tell Jews they could not rest on Saturday...that is a clear lie that some Sabbathkeepers have told.

Secondly, it is the Roman Catholic Church that claims they changed the Sabbath. The Roman Catholic Church makes a lot of claims that serious Christians don't believe, and that is simply one more.

As I said, the majority of Christians were NOT observing the Sabbath by the year 135 AD, and claims to the contrary are simply Roman Catholic or Sabbatarian fairy tales.

And, if you check out Samuele Bacchiocchi's book on the Sabbath, you will find that he, as a Seventh Day Adventist historian, acknowledges this is true. He is a hostile witness, who would prefer for the facts to indicate otherwise, but he was forced to admit after examining historical records, that Ellen G. White and other Sabbatarians are wrong on this fact.

His book is called : From Sabbath to Sunday: A Historical Investigation of the Rise of Sunday Observance in Early Christianity

Regarding the Sabbath being a burden, you aren't a slave in the NT church, who was forced by his master to work whenever his master wanted him to work. You are a freed man who enjoys considerable latitude in the way he lives his life. Such a slave would not be able to observe a rest day at his simple whim or desire.

The reason that Rome expelled the Jews under Claudius is because there was fighting in Rome over Jesus. Messianic believers were fighting with other Jews over the fact that Jesus was Messiah. They were fighting over an individual named "Chrestus" whom historians acknowledge might have been Jesus.

Messianic Jews were still fellowshipping with other Jews by that time. Their separation became inevitable, though, because Christians were despised after Jerusalem fell to Rome in AD 70, because the Christian Jews were warned to depart from Jerusalem prior to the encirclement of the Roman army in AD67. They were viewed as traitors, and at AD 90, there was an additional recitation added to the conditions of synagogue membership regarding an implicit denial of Jesus as Messiah. Additionally, in AD130 or so, the Jewish leadership proclaimed Simon Bar-Kokvbah the Messiah. He led a rebellion against Rome, and Christian Jews were not able to participate, so they were ostracized. Both of these events led to the separation of Christian Jews from Jewish association at the synagogue.

Again, these are all "facts" that don't fit with the Sabbathkeeper narrative, so the average Sabbathkeeper doesn't even know them.

Instead they fixate on Constantine and the Council of Nicea, and the Pope.

It is true that the church, long after Constantine, issued anathemas against Judaizers, but my guess is these anathemas were issued because Judaizers were claiming all Christians must observe the Sabbath, and the church was anathematizing those who made such claims.

And, to be clear, the "church" wasn't the "Roman Catholic Church". I am talking about the little "c" catholic church, whic means the true church who accepted the Nicene Creed. Rome was only one bishopric of this church, and had no power to make such anathemas unilaterally.

As an ex Sabbathkeeper, I believed all this propaganda myself until I studied church history.

I invite others to read Samuele Bacchiocchi's book, as he is a hostile witness, yet admits that Sabbathkeepers have a distorted view of church history and the Sabbath. He admitted PLAINLY that Ellen G. White did not know what she was talking about.

Yet he remained a Seventh Day Adventist.

By the way, Seventh Day Adventists are a significant source of misinformation about the history of the Church and the Sabbath. Lots of her stuff relies on her own visions. They fail to tell you she was hit in the head with a rock as a child, and likely was affected mentally by the damage it inflicted (she nearly died).

Concerning the Sabbath being given to man, the Israelite nation were men, so I won't argue with that point..however I will ask you to show me a single verse where men were told to observe the Sabbath prior to God dealing with Israel. There isn't one.

God rested or "ceased" on the seventh creation day, but this says nothing about Adam and Eve. They didn't work on the six days prior to it, so they didn't rest on the Sabbath day either.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Let me elaborate on my statement, on March 7, 321, Roman Emperor Constantine issued a civil decree making Sunday a day of rest, to add to this the Catholic Church, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday” (The Catholic Mirror, official publication of James Cardinal Gibbons, Sept. 23, 1893).

Question, if the Sabbath was changed from Saturday to Sunday, then the Sabbath was never removed, just that man played God and decided to change it to another day, the question is why? The answer is that the Catholic church wanted nothing to do with the Jews and it is clear in the Acts of the Apostle that the expulsion of the Jews from Rome was taking place (Aquila and Priscilla). Why were the Jews being persecuted and driving out? Again, Rome wanted nothing to do with the Jews and they knew by changing the day from Saturday to Sunday they would separate themselves from God's chosen, the Jews. Daniel 7:25, it appears that this prophecy was fulfilled.

We are talking about the Ten Commandments, because most of what was commanded to the Jews to keep were shadows of what was to come and this was being fulfilled in Yeshua. The chapters prior to Yeshua making the statement that he came not to destroy, but to fulfill shows that he was fulfilling what was spoken of him.

By the way, even though God commanded the Jews to keep the Sabbath, Yeshua said, the Sabbath was given to man, man would imply that from the beginning the Sabbath was established. Now, the question that you will have to answer, if the Catholic church did not remove the Sabbath, but changed it, would that mean that the Sabbath is to be kept, but then who gave the Catholic church the authority to change the day? Scriptures so not state that it was change, neither does it state that the first day of the week the Sabbath is to be held. If you read the Acts to the Apostle, they were meeting on the Sabbath day, it never ceased, but man wants to play God. So, you can believe all you want, but you need to give me Scriptures that God change the day and if he changed it he went against his own words.

Just so you know, my position is that the eighth day (Sunday) is an appropriate day of rest because the Christian has entered into the new creation. He has been joined to Christ, and Christ, at the resurrection, became the firstfruits of the new creation.

The believer participates in the new creation, therefore it is perfectly appropriate for him to observe the eighth (first) day of the week to commemorate this.

I don't have any particularly strong reason to reject the Christianity of those who claim that Saturday is the correct worship day, IF they don't deny the mature Christianity of those who meet on Sunday.

However, if someone denies this, they are a Judaizer and deserve to be anathematized.

Judaizers are basically associating themselves with the "old order" and not the new creation.

By the way, the numbers eight and fifty are associated with the new creation. Eight is 7 + 1 and fifty is (7x7) + 1.

The number “8” has to do with the new creation, and so does the number “50”….which is (7X7) + 1.

Jesus worked 6 days (symbolically) in his ministry, and finished his work on the cross on Friday (“It is finished”) then rested in the grave on Saturday. He was resurrected on Sunday (day 8) as a new creation (in terms of his resurrection body; not in terms of being YHVH).

Jesus is the BEGINNING of the new creation; the firstfruits (I Corinthians 15, Revelation 3:1).

Hebrew children were physically circumcised on the 8th day, which is a physical type of the new birth or the new creation or being born again (Leviticus 12:3).

On the first Pentecost after the Exodus (which is calculated as the 50th day from the weekly Sabbath during Passover), the Israelites received the Law on Mount Sinai (by Jewish tradition), and became a new physical nation that typified the Church.

On the first Pentecost after the resurrection of Jesus, the Holy Spirit was received by the apostolic church, and the Church became a new spiritual nation; a kingdom of priests (Acts 2).

On the land sabbath year, at the end of the year, all debt was forgiven, and there is a new beginning starting in the eighth year (Deuteronomy 15:1-6). This is symbolic of Jesus and the forgiveness of our sins to begin a new life.

On the Jubilee year, which is the 50th year in the Israelite calendar system, all debts were forgiven and the land was returned back to the original property owners; in essence a new life and a restoration (Leviticus 25:8-15). For the believer, this relates to the liberation that we receive in Jesus, where our spiritual debt is forgiven.

So, these things point toward the new creation, which starts with Jesus’ resurrection. For us, regeneration (being born again) is the beginning of our new life. Ultimately, the new creation reaches fulfillment in a New Heavens and New Earth/New Jerusalem (Revelation 21-22).

By the way, I believe this is the theological justification for the day of worship being on Sunday rather than the Jewish Sabbath. I read a quote by an early church father that gave me some hint concerning this, and now I am more convinced that the early church had SOLID THEOLOGICAL REASONS for the practice.

Jesus our Lord, the Church, and each individual Christian, is a new creation.

There are probably other incidences of "8" and "50"

My view is that those who are Sabbath and festival keepers are simply trying to dwell under the old, Mosaic economy. Believers in Jesus are under the new economy.

The only reason why Judaizers have been able to gain a foothold is due to their ignorance of the arguments against the Mosaic economy and the significance of Sunday and the new creation.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

How do you measure the time slot that you observe..by Palestinian time or by your own time, in your own area?

By the way, notice that my username is UnitedWithChrist, and yours is SundownSam. You identify yourself by the Sabbath. I identify myself by my union with Christ.

Enough said?

First, what does a name have to do with a relationship with Yeshua, when one is only identify with Yeshua by a walk and Yeshua not a name. People who associates themselves with Yeshua through a name does not mean that they are in relationship with God in Yeshua and I am sure you agree with me, therefore, you made an inappropriate statement, not to mention that name was given to me at a young age by friends way before I ever acknowledge the Sabbath and I am 64 now and I can't recall ever thinking of that.

In addition, your question is a ridiculous question and appears to be a question of mockery. Is not about a measure the time slot as you put it, regardless where a person is the Sabbath day begins at sundown on Friday and ends at sundown on Saturday. It is like asking you, when do you celebrate New Year, eastern time or central time? By the way, I do celebrate New Years before you, does that mean you should not celebrate New Year?

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

Firstly, the date was in 324 and not 321.


This is significant because it is often claimed by Sabbathkeepers that Constantine "changed the Sabbath".

He did not change the Sabbath in any way, shape or form. He allowed soldiers to rest on Sunday, whereas before that, they had no rest day. He did not tell Jews they could not rest on Saturday...that is a clear lie that some Sabbathkeepers have told.

Secondly, it is the Roman Catholic Church that claims they changed the Sabbath. The Roman Catholic Church makes a lot of claims that serious Christians don't believe, and that is simply one more.

As I said, the majority of Christians were NOT observing the Sabbath by the year 135 AD, and claims to the contrary are simply Roman Catholic or Sabbatarian fairy tales.

And, if you check out Samuele Bacchiocchi's book on the Sabbath, you will find that he, as a Seventh Day Adventist historian, acknowledges this is true. He is a hostile witness, who would prefer for the facts to indicate otherwise, but he was forced to admit after examining historical records, that Ellen G. White and other Sabbatarians are wrong on this fact.

His book is called : From Sabbath to Sunday: A Historical Investigation of the Rise of Sunday Observance in Early Christianity

Regarding the Sabbath being a burden, you aren't a slave in the NT church, who was forced by his master to work whenever his master wanted him to work. You are a freed man who enjoys considerable latitude in the way he lives his life. Such a slave would not be able to observe a rest day at his simple whim or desire.

The reason that Rome expelled the Jews under Claudius is because there was fighting in Rome over Jesus. Messianic believers were fighting with other Jews over the fact that Jesus was Messiah. They were fighting over an individual named "Chrestus" whom historians acknowledge might have been Jesus.

Messianic Jews were still fellowshipping with other Jews by that time. Their separation became inevitable, though, because Christians were despised after Jerusalem fell to Rome in AD 70, because the Christian Jews were warned to depart from Jerusalem prior to the encirclement of the Roman army in AD67. They were viewed as traitors, and at AD 90, there was an additional recitation added to the conditions of synagogue membership regarding an implicit denial of Jesus as Messiah. Additionally, in AD130 or so, the Jewish leadership proclaimed Simon Bar-Kokvbah the Messiah. He led a rebellion against Rome, and Christian Jews were not able to participate, so they were ostracized. Both of these events led to the separation of Christian Jews from Jewish association at the synagogue.

Again, these are all "facts" that don't fit with the Sabbathkeeper narrative, so the average Sabbathkeeper doesn't even know them.

Instead they fixate on Constantine and the Council of Nicea, and the Pope.

It is true that the church, long after Constantine, issued anathemas against Judaizers, but my guess is these anathemas were issued because Judaizers were claiming all Christians must observe the Sabbath, and the church was anathematizing those who made such claims.

And, to be clear, the "church" wasn't the "Roman Catholic Church". I am talking about the little "c" catholic church, whic means the true church who accepted the Nicene Creed. Rome was only one bishopric of this church, and had no power to make such anathemas unilaterally.

As an ex Sabbathkeeper, I believed all this propaganda myself until I studied church history.

I invite others to read Samuele Bacchiocchi's book, as he is a hostile witness, yet admits that Sabbathkeepers have a distorted view of church history and the Sabbath. He admitted PLAINLY that Ellen G. White did not know what she was talking about.

Yet he remained a Seventh Day Adventist.

By the way, Seventh Day Adventists are a significant source of misinformation about the history of the Church and the Sabbath. Lots of her stuff relies on her own visions. They fail to tell you she was hit in the head with a rock as a child, and likely was affected mentally by the damage it inflicted (she nearly died).

Concerning the Sabbath being given to man, the Israelite nation were men, so I won't argue with that point..however I will ask you to show me a single verse where men were told to observe the Sabbath prior to God dealing with Israel. There isn't one.

God rested or "ceased" on the seventh creation day, but this says nothing about Adam and Eve. They didn't work on the six days prior to it, so they didn't rest on the Sabbath day either.

__________________________________

First, I never said the Sabbath was a burden and it I did I mistakenly meant not a burden. Your first line in correcting the year 321 just told me all about you and that you appear to write just to impress. Let's put aside all history and let's just talk Scriptures, so my question to you... PROVE TO ME THAT THE SABBATH DAY IS DONE AWAY WITH AND WHERE IN THE SCRIPTURE DO YOU FIND THIS AND AT THE SAME TIME PROVE TO ME THAT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE DONE AWAY WITH AND WHERE IN THE SCRIPTURES DOES IS SAY THIS?

Just answer my question without writing a book.

Your Adam and eve statement is a ridiculous statement, I can show you from Scriptures that the law was given prior to it being given to Moses on tablet of stones, it was given verbally. Do you know that? But before answer this question, prove to be the above what I ask you.

Let me make myself clear, we are saved by grace alone through faith apart from the law and we are made God's righteousness in Yeshua and not by the law. With this being said, give me scriptures in context that the Ten Commandments and the Sabbath day are does away with, don't pull versus out of context.

By the way, God is not impressed with how much one knows, do you know that? Don't bother answering, just answer the first two questions I asked.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

Just so you know, my position is that the eighth day (Sunday) is an appropriate day of rest because the Christian has entered into the new creation. He has been joined to Christ, and Christ, at the resurrection, became the firstfruits of the new creation.

The believer participates in the new creation, therefore it is perfectly appropriate for him to observe the eighth (first) day of the week to commemorate this.

I don't have any particularly strong reason to reject the Christianity of those who claim that Saturday is the correct worship day, IF they don't deny the mature Christianity of those who meet on Sunday.

However, if someone denies this, they are a Judaizer and deserve to be anathematized.

Judaizers are basically associating themselves with the "old order" and not the new creation.

By the way, the numbers eight and fifty are associated with the new creation. Eight is 7 + 1 and fifty is (7x7) + 1.

The number “8” has to do with the new creation, and so does the number “50”….which is (7X7) + 1.

Jesus worked 6 days (symbolically) in his ministry, and finished his work on the cross on Friday (“It is finished”) then rested in the grave on Saturday. He was resurrected on Sunday (day 8) as a new creation (in terms of his resurrection body; not in terms of being YHVH).

Jesus is the BEGINNING of the new creation; the firstfruits (I Corinthians 15, Revelation 3:1).

Hebrew children were physically circumcised on the 8th day, which is a physical type of the new birth or the new creation or being born again (Leviticus 12:3).

On the first Pentecost after the Exodus (which is calculated as the 50th day from the weekly Sabbath during Passover), the Israelites received the Law on Mount Sinai (by Jewish tradition), and became a new physical nation that typified the Church.

On the first Pentecost after the resurrection of Jesus, the Holy Spirit was received by the apostolic church, and the Church became a new spiritual nation; a kingdom of priests (Acts 2).

On the land sabbath year, at the end of the year, all debt was forgiven, and there is a new beginning starting in the eighth year (Deuteronomy 15:1-6). This is symbolic of Jesus and the forgiveness of our sins to begin a new life.

On the Jubilee year, which is the 50th year in the Israelite calendar system, all debts were forgiven and the land was returned back to the original property owners; in essence a new life and a restoration (Leviticus 25:8-15). For the believer, this relates to the liberation that we receive in Jesus, where our spiritual debt is forgiven.

So, these things point toward the new creation, which starts with Jesus’ resurrection. For us, regeneration (being born again) is the beginning of our new life. Ultimately, the new creation reaches fulfillment in a New Heavens and New Earth/New Jerusalem (Revelation 21-22).

By the way, I believe this is the theological justification for the day of worship being on Sunday rather than the Jewish Sabbath. I read a quote by an early church father that gave me some hint concerning this, and now I am more convinced that the early church had SOLID THEOLOGICAL REASONS for the practice.

Jesus our Lord, the Church, and each individual Christian, is a new creation.

There are probably other incidences of "8" and "50"

My view is that those who are Sabbath and festival keepers are simply trying to dwell under the old, Mosaic economy. Believers in Jesus are under the new economy.

The only reason why Judaizers have been able to gain a foothold is due to their ignorance of the arguments against the Mosaic economy and the significance of Sunday and the new creation.

-------------------
Don't give me opinion, give me scriptures.

By the way, I am Jewish, do you know that I believe, because the way you wrote you probably are assuming that I believe. You view, means nothing to me if you do not know what I believe. As I previously stated, you appear to be writing to impress, but I see you write opinions or views without substantiating it with Scriptures. I you want to discuss this with me via skype we can, but let me make two things clear, no arguments and to talk to me trying to impress, I am not even impress with those who have collars, only dogs wear collars. So, stop writing a book and write according to what is being asked or said.

 

[Grandpa]

Seems your telling us the yoke of bondage is the 10 commandments. What do the scriptures say?

GALATIANS 4 [21] Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? [22] For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. [23] But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. [24] Which things are an allegory: for these are the TWO COVENANTS; THE ONE FROM THE MOUNT SINAI, WHICH GENDERETH TO BONDAGE, WHICH IS AGAR. [25] For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. [26] But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.......... [30] Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Is the above scripture speaking of the 10 commandments as Grandpa claims or is it simply speaking of circumcision?

EXODUS 34 [28] And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the COVENANT, the TEN COMMANDMENTS.

ACTS 7 [8] And he gave him the COVENANT OF CIRCUMCISION: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs.

BOTH the 10 commandments and circumcision were givin as “covenants”

EXODUS 24 [12] And the Lord said unto Moses, COME UP TO ME INTO THE MOUNT, and be there: and I WILL GIVE THEE tables of stone, AND A LAW, AND COMMANDMENTS which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.

LEVITICUS 7 [37] THIS IS THE LAW OF THE BURNT OFFERING, of the meat offering, and of the sin offering, and of the trespass offering, and of the consecrations, and of the sacrifice of the peace offerings; [38] WHICH THE LORD COMMANDED MOSES IN MOUNT SINAI, in the day that he commanded the children of Israel to offer their oblations unto the Lord, in the wilderness of Sinai.

Both covenants, the 10 commandments and the law of Moses were given at Mt Sinai.

JOHN 7 [21] Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel.[22] MOSES THEREFORE GAVE UNTO YOU CIRCUMCISION; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.[23] If a man on the sabbath day RECEIVE CIRCUMCISION, THAT THE LAW OF MOSES SHOULD NOT BE BROKEN; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

Circumcision is of the law of Moses and given at Sinai. So which of these, the 10 commandments or circumcision do the scriptures say bring us into “bondage” {Gal.4:24}?

And the winner is....

GALATIANS 5 [1] Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and BE NOT ENTANGLED AGAIN WITH THE YOKE OF BONDAGE. [2] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that IF YE BE CIRCUMCISED, CHRIST SHALL PROFIT YOU NOTHING.

And again...

GALATIANS 2 [3] But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was COMPELLED TO BE CIRCUMCISED: [4]And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might BRING US INTO BONDAGE:

There are several problems with what you have written.

The most obvious being that people are brought into bondage by circumcision. That is pretty laughable. There are millions of babies that are circumcised every day that aren't compelled to work at the Jewish laws or customs.

Circumcision was merely a sign of a persons devotion to following the Jewish way of working at the commandments and celebrating festivals.


The second most obvious thing you have written is trying to show that circumcision was brought by Moses. Circumcision was brought by (or through) Abraham.


Its a pretty common error that I see where people try to separate the law into parts and then say the parts they don't like the Lord Jesus did away with. But their favorite parts are still there for everyone to work at.

The Lord Jesus Himself said that the law is all or nothing. Not one jot or tittle would fall from it until ALL was fulfilled.

Paul also said that the 10 commandments are the ministration of death and condemnation.


Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

A person is no longer under the ministration of condemnation when they are in Christ Jesus.

And Paul tells us to stand fast in the Liberty that is in Christ Jesus and NOT go back to the ministration of condemnation.

 

[Grandpa]

-------------------
Don't give me opinion, give me scriptures.

By the way, I am Jewish, do you know that I believe, because the way you wrote you probably are assuming that I believe. You view, means nothing to me if you do not know what I believe. As I previously stated, you appear to be writing to impress, but I see you write opinions or views without substantiating it with Scriptures. I you want to discuss this with me via skype we can, but let me make two things clear, no arguments and to talk to me trying to impress, I am not even impress with those who have collars, only dogs wear collars. So, stop writing a book and write according to what is being asked or said.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Did any jots or tittles pass from the law? Are Jews still sacrificing animals for forgiveness of sins (atonement)?

If not, then that would definitely be some jots and tittles.


If you don't believe what the Lord Jesus has said then you are closing your eyes and your ears to the SOLUTION of the problem of mens sin.


I remember when my son was 2yrs old I would ask him if he wanted help with things. He would say "No, me do it". And then continue to struggle.

Seems to be the same situation that our Father in Heaven is in. He says "Let me help". Too many people are still saying "No, me do it".

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Did any jots or tittles pass from the law? Are Jews still sacrificing animals for forgiveness of sins (atonement)?

If not, then that would definitely be some jots and tittles.


If you don't believe what the Lord Jesus has said then you are closing your eyes and your ears to the SOLUTION of the problem of mens sin.


I remember when my son was 2yrs old I would ask him if he wanted help with things. He would say "No, me do it". And then continue to struggle.

Seems to be the same situation that our Father in Heaven is in. He says "Let me help". Too many people are still saying "No, me do it

--------------------------------

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Did any jots or tittles pass from the law? Are Jews still sacrificing animals for forgiveness of sins (atonement)?

If not, then that would definitely be some jots and tittles.


If you don't believe what the Lord Jesus has said then you are closing your eyes and your ears to the SOLUTION of the problem of mens sin.


I remember when my son was 2yrs old I would ask him if he wanted help with things. He would say "No, me do it". And then continue to struggle.

Seems to be the same situation that our Father in Heaven is in. He says "Let me help". Too many people are still saying "No, me do it".

I am referring to the Ten Commandments and I made that clear

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Did any jots or tittles pass from the law? Are Jews still sacrificing animals for forgiveness of sins (atonement)?

If not, then that would definitely be some jots and tittles.


If you don't believe what the Lord Jesus has said then you are closing your eyes and your ears to the SOLUTION of the problem of mens sin.


I remember when my son was 2yrs old I would ask him if he wanted help with things. He would say "No, me do it". And then continue to struggle.

Seems to be the same situation that our Father in Heaven is in. He says "Let me help". Too many people are still saying "No, me do it".

I don't know who you are referring to, but I am referring to the Ten Commandments and I made that clear in my previous post. I agree that till heaven an earth pass, one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED, in other word, things have to continue to be fulfilled, Yeshua fulfilled many things and there are other things that has to be fulfilled. The sacrificing of animals was fulfill in Yeshua, once and for all and TILL ALL IS FULFILLED NOT ONE JOT OR TITTLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

First, what does a name have to do with a relationship with Yeshua, when one is only identify with Yeshua by a walk and Yeshua not a name. People who associates themselves with Yeshua through a name does not mean that they are in relationship with God in Yeshua and I am sure you agree with me, therefore, you made an inappropriate statement, not to mention that name was given to me at a young age by friends way before I ever acknowledge the Sabbath and I am 64 now and I can't recall ever thinking of that.

In addition, your question is a ridiculous question and appears to be a question of mockery. Is not about a measure the time slot as you put it, regardless where a person is the Sabbath day begins at sundown on Friday and ends at sundown on Saturday. It is like asking you, when do you celebrate New Year, eastern time or central time? By the way, I do celebrate New Years before you, does that mean you should not celebrate New Year?

OK, if the username "sundownsam" does not mean that you are focused on the Sabbath, I apologize.

But, usernames typically indicate what the person focuses upon. For instance, my focus is on union with Christ, because it is, in essence, a summary of salvation.

Regarding the Sabbath, typically the claim by Sabbathkeepers is that a particular section of time is made holy, and the rest of time is not made holy. Usually, they use this claim to deny that Sunday observers are believers, or claim their superior knowledge due to observing the "correct day". My point is, that some guy on the globe may be worshipping God and observing a day of rest on Sunday at the exact same time as Saturday for the "Sabbathkeeper" yet the "Sabbathkeeper" will claim the other guy is worshipping the Sun and not Yahweh.

The difference between your New Years' example is that those who observe New Years' don't claim that a particular section of time, in which God rested, is made holy. New Years' observers are perfectly fine with others observing it at different times, because they know that New Years' is a man-made construct anyways.

So, the question is, do you think a particular 24 hours within the creation week was made holy, and that God manifests his presence in a different way than other 24 hour periods? If so, then was it made holy only for those 24 hours in that spot, or did God really make 48 hours holy? Because, if he sanctified, or placed his presence in a special manner, every spot on earth when sunset reaches that spot, then he sanctified 48 hours, which could include both Saturday and Sunday?

This is a dilemma for Sabbathkeepers, as they don't acknowledge that the Sabbath was particular to a region at the time it was enacted in the Mosaic Covenant.

If your claim is not that God manifests his presence (makes holy) the Sabbath in a different way than other days, then your view won't be affected by my reasoning..but if you claim God manifests his presence in the Sabbath more than other days, then my analysis holds up. I do know what Sabbathkeepers from my former sect taught in this manner, and for the most part they are just using the standard arguments of other Sabbathkeepers.

My point with your name is that you are so identified with the Sabbath that your focus isn't on Christ. And, that is the case with many Sabbathkeepers. They identify more with the Law rather than the Lawgiver.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

__________________________________

First, I never said the Sabbath was a burden and it I did I mistakenly meant not a burden. Your first line in correcting the year 321 just told me all about you and that you appear to write just to impress. Let's put aside all history and let's just talk Scriptures, so my question to you... PROVE TO ME THAT THE SABBATH DAY IS DONE AWAY WITH AND WHERE IN THE SCRIPTURE DO YOU FIND THIS AND AT THE SAME TIME PROVE TO ME THAT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE DONE AWAY WITH AND WHERE IN THE SCRIPTURES DOES IS SAY THIS?

Just answer my question without writing a book.

Your Adam and eve statement is a ridiculous statement, I can show you from Scriptures that the law was given prior to it being given to Moses on tablet of stones, it was given verbally. Do you know that? But before answer this question, prove to be the above what I ask you.

Let me make myself clear, we are saved by grace alone through faith apart from the law and we are made God's righteousness in Yeshua and not by the law. With this being said, give me scriptures in context that the Ten Commandments and the Sabbath day are does away with, don't pull versus out of context.

By the way, God is not impressed with how much one knows, do you know that? Don't bother answering, just answer the first two questions I asked.

Firstly, Judaizers are the ones who proclaim their "knowledge". I am firmly convinced that they throw around Hebrew words in order to promote themselves as the ones who know about Scripture. In essence, what they are trying to do is correct other believers on their use of the transliteration from Aramaic "Jesus". There is nothing wrong with using the word Jesus, and their implicit correction is meaningless to me. Additionally, I know many of them learn about 20 words in Hebrew and constantly refer to them in their conversation in order to impress others with their alleged knowledge.

Secondly, I already answered you and I gave you a number of Scriptures which show that the Mosaic Law is done away with, not just the Sabbath and festivals. The Sabbath, annual holy days, and New Moons are no longer applicable, and neither are the clean/unclean laws. These were types and shadows.

Your mistake is in focusing ONLY upon the Sabbath, and not the entire Mosaic Law. See Heb 7,8, Gal 3,4, Eph 2:13-15, Rom 7:1-6, Acts 15. Paul NEVER taught that Gentiles needed to observe the Sabbath, festivals, and clean meat laws. He met with Jews and Gentiles on the Sabbath sometimes because that is where the people were, and there was no issue with meeting on Saturday OR Sunday.

In addition to this, there are other references regarding days of worship including Colossians 2:16-17. I took the effort to explain that you should compare these verses to see that the same language is used in relation to other aspects of the ceremonial law, particularly Hebrews 10:1-4 and 9:9-11.

Jewish and Gentile Christians ceased meeting with Jews after the benedictions were changed to force Jews in the synagogues to reject Jesus as Christ in about AD 90. Further deterioration of their relationship happened by AD135 with the rebellion of the Jews under Simon Bar Kokvbah, whom many Jewish rabbis claimed was the true Messiah. Simon mutilated Jewish Christians after they refused to fight for him against the Romans.

"The Pope changed the Sabbath to Sunday" nonsense is part of the whole Sabbathkeeper mythology. Unfortunately, Roman Catholics claim similar things because they think they were the true church. The true church was called the "catholic church" in the beginning because "catholic" means orthodox, but Rome was only one bishiopric of the "catholic church". Unfortunately, Christians are so ignorant today that they are misled by Sabbathkeeper nonsense simply because they don't study church history.

I am simply repeating my explanations because you refuse to acknowledge them. You are like the Muslim who says "show me where Jesus said "I am God" ". Well, Jesus said this, in so many words, and if the Muslim doesn't see those exact words, he won't believe. He implies he would believe if he saw those words in the gospels, but I doubt he would believe anyways.

Sabbathkeepers are no different. They want to see where the Sabbath has been eliminated. I show them where the entire Mosaic Law is no longer in effect for the believer, yet that doesn't convince them.

By the way, let's clarify something.

Do you believe annual festivals and new moons should be observed?

Do you believe clean meat laws should be observed?

If your focus is only on the Ten Commandments, and their continued validity, how do you justify your position regarding annual festivals, new moons, and clean meat laws? Those aren't part of the Ten Commandments.

Or, is your position that you can pick and choose among the Mosaic Law and decide what is applicable, and what is not applicable, based on something else?

And, if you claim the entire Mosaic Law is in effect, then how do you deal with the fact that animal sacrifices cannot be offered anymore, because there is no Levitical priesthood? It can't be fulfilled, because these sacrifices are integral to the entire system.

So are calendar observances, by the way..you can't remove the parts you don't think apply anymore, and still claim the rest apply.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

-------------------
Don't give me opinion, give me scriptures.

By the way, I am Jewish, do you know that I believe, because the way you wrote you probably are assuming that I believe. You view, means nothing to me if you do not know what I believe. As I previously stated, you appear to be writing to impress, but I see you write opinions or views without substantiating it with Scriptures. I you want to discuss this with me via skype we can, but let me make two things clear, no arguments and to talk to me trying to impress, I am not even impress with those who have collars, only dogs wear collars. So, stop writing a book and write according to what is being asked or said.

If you are not a Messianic Jew, then my reasoning would not apply to you.

You are not a believer, therefore you can't reason from a Christian perspective.

However, I would ask you the question....how do you fulfill Torah with no Temple and no Levitical Priesthood?

The system requires animal sacrifices, and you don't have a Temple, and you don't have a priesthood...nor can you ever have a priesthood because the geneology records were destroyed in AD 70.

I wear collars sometimes. Most of the time I wear Henley T shirts though. They don't have a collar but they have maybe three buttons up the front from the collar downward.

Are you a Jew that wears pony tails? If so, I don't talk to men wearing pony tails about theology.

 

[gb9]

If you are not a Messianic Jew, then my reasoning would not apply to you.

You are not a believer, therefore you can't reason from a Christian perspective.

However, I would ask you the question....how do you fulfill Torah with no Temple and no Levitical Priesthood?

The system requires animal sacrifices, and you don't have a Temple, and you don't have a priesthood...nor can you ever have a priesthood because the geneology records were destroyed in AD 70.

I wear collars sometimes. Most of the time I wear Henley T shirts though. They don't have a collar but they have maybe three buttons up the front from the collar downward.

Are you a Jew that wears pony tails? If so, I don't talk to men wearing pony tails about theology.

you sir are a breath of fresh air. myself and others have been interacting with these judeaizers and combating their lies, and you, being a former one as you said, are doing a great job and laying out so many facts, they are not really even trying to refute them.