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What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?
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Matthew 24: 21-31, and 2 Thessalonians 2: 1-3 dispel the pre-trib for me. Have read, re-read, backward and forward, and just do not see it.
Did you notice that trouble (tribulation) is excluded altogether BEFORE the revelation of the Rapture by Christ? Of course, that is not enough. We all need to see a very explicit statement before we will believe. We all need the Bible to be a textbook of theology rather than a revelation which reveals as much by implication as by explication. Or so it would appear from all the *Christian skepticism* we see around us.
You shouldn't have to pay to message anyone. Let me see if I can message you.
The two set of scriptures below are the same exact event. There is only one Second Coming (The Day of the Lord) and there is no rapture (as preached). When Jesus meets us in the air you will find no where in scripture that He brings us to heaven. What you do find in scripture is that He brings us to the 1000yr period of rest.
1 Thessalonians 4 and 5
4:15 - coming (Parousia)
4:17 - clouds
4:16 - shout, voice trump
4:17 - caught up together
5:1 – times and seasons
5:2 - a thief
5:3 - sudden destruction
5:6 - watch
Matthew 24
24:27 - coming (Parousia)
24:30 - clouds
24:31 - sound of a trumpet
24:31 - gather together
24:36 - day or hour
24:43 - a thief
24:39 - took them in a flood
24:42 - watch
Do you think all these events will happen twice? No way. Both sets of scripture are describing a single event
Who’s the bride that marries Christ in heaven before His return? When does the judgment seat of Christ for believers occur?
No Church mentioned in Matthew. This is a Jewish rapture of the 144,000 elect servants. Rightly divide the Church from Israel.
Paul said his gospel, the gospel of Christ, has gone out to all the world, been preached to all nations and to every creature under heaven and yet, the end has not come. Why? Two different messages for two different audiences. The gospel of the kingdom is concerning the promised earthly kingdom where Christ will rule on the throne of David in Jerusalem. This will be preached to the whole world during the tribulation as Christ’s return as King is eminent.
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Vs
Romans 16
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Colossians 1
5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Wrong!
Why do you guys continue to pigeonhole words?
With this interpretation of the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, as being the same event, you put the church through the day of the Lord, the wrath of God.
The fact is that, clouds and a trumpet are mentioned for both events.
The church cannot and will not go through the wrath of God, which covers the entire period up until Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.
Until you guy's understand this, you will always be in error regarding these two separate events.
One dimensional. The case you make is no game changer. My point is not in reference to the flood duration and a boatloadof people and animals....that proves nothing at all.
But Noah did infact RETURN to earth AFTER THE FLOOD(post judgement)
And if being over a mile above the eart (ahem,in the sky) is not profound and DIRECTLY coinciding with us leaving the earth (or should we say "in the heavens" as Noah was),then you should also hide yourself from that fact as well.
But what do you do with the preflood/judgement dynamic???
Are you aware you have no such dynamic???
Psssst,you need Noah deliverd post flood,then IMMEDIATELY RETURNING back to earth.And of course Lot also delivered post judgement.
So,your case fails big time. I can wholeheartedly AGREE with all those "Noah was safe DURING THE FLOOD" sentences.
No worries at all.
No pretrib anything debunked.
Jesus "I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until I drink it anew with you in my fathers kingdom"I can tell you why? If you look at the context at John 13:36 Peter said to Jesus, "where are you going?" Jesus then at John 14:1 says, "Let your heart not be troubled etc." So the short answer is that Jesus is "REASSURING" His diciples because they were troubled by the depressing occurrences of what Jesus stated in John chapter 12, 13. John 13:33, John 12:12:32-33, and John 13:38 regarding Peter. In short, I don't see one bit of evidence that this is referring to the rapture. Your "reading" into the text/eisegesis ahwatukee.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Directly referring to the wedding supper in heaven.
I know,I know,you need the supper on earth later,and your doctrine prohibits any business in heaven as Jesus prophesied at the last supper.
You nailed it "carousing and having fun"
You say the rapture is AFTER THE FLOOD.
You say Noah was delivered After the flood.
But no...Noah returned After the flood.
Read the account. NO RAIN (WAY BEFORE THE FLOOD) Noah ENTERS the ark and the door was shut by God.
Now we clarly ,clearly see Jesus lay out his deliverance map.
All pre judgement. Lot,Noah, And a few sentences later the 5 wise virgins.
Nothing post Judgement...ALL PRE.
But remember the door was shut.
Then this;
Mat 25
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Both places,God is there both places.
Ark is a type of heaven,....Marriage chamber is also in heaven.(or Jesus was wrong about the 10 virgin story)
The bride is gentile
(ruth/Boaz)
Add it up. Pretrib rapture hands down.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
You guys described it. I just reported it back to you.
"why does it take so long"
The rapture is the gathering of the bride.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Postrib rapture is void of the purpose of the rapture and the gt.
This is the way I see things:
Noah was saved out of the flood, a picture of the Jewish saint in the tribulation. Enoch was saved from the flood, a picture of the raptured Church age saint.
The setting is preflood.
Noah rose with family into the heavens,then returned to earth after the judgement.
We even have a door shut dynamic in noah and the 5 wise bride a few sentences later in mat 25.
To top is off lot is used by Jesus alongside noah. Yet another pretrib rapture depiction
The "one taken" is right in that very setting.
That same setting has "surprise,a peacetime,and more than once the watch and wait" additives to the setting.
But Jesus nails it with "before the flood"
That same setting has "surprise,a peacetime,and more than once the watch and wait" additives to the setting.
But Jesus nails it with "before the flood"
You leave out my verses.First of all over 30 or 40 years I use to believe in the pretrib rapture taught Hal Lindsey and his ilk. I finally came to my senses by doing extensive study and changed my position according to Biblical facts.
Now, it is true that Jesus mentioned Noah at Matthew 24:37-39 but the point Jesus was making is that His coming and the world was clueless about it because they were "carousing" around having fun. So what about Noah? How was he and his delivered? Hebrews 11:7, "Noah being warned by God in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation/deliverance for his household." Was Noah literally taken away out of the water, no.
Look at 1 Peter 3:20 the last sentence, "in which a few, that is, eight persons, WERE BROUGHT SAFELY THROUGH THE WATER." And how about 2 Peter 2:5. that dismantels you position. "and did not spare the ancient world, but "PRESERVED" Noah, a preacher of righteousness with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly." The Greek word for preserved is "phulasso." It means to kept safe, under guard. In other words, God used the ark to protect Noah and his family.
They were not raptured from the flood and neither will we be rapture from the great tribulation. It does not make any sense at least to me that if we are pretribed raptured we will be having the marraige supper of the Lamb while all hell is breaking loose on earth.
So, here are two more questions for you and both questions back up what Jesus stated at Matthew 24. The Apostle John said the following at 1 John 2:18, "Children, it is the last hour and just as you heard that antichrist (singular) is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know this is the last hour." At Matthew 24:15 Jesus said, "Therefore when you see the Abomination of Desolation, run. That's the implication in the following verses.
So, why does John say (just like Jesus said) to be alert for the coming of the "singular" antichrist if were not going to be here because we were raptured? Second question by the Apostle Paul at 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8, "This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. vs6, For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, vs7, AND TO GIVE RELIEF/REST TO YOU WHO ARE AFFLICTED, and to us as well (look at the words carefully) WHEN, (when to we get rest or relief according to the Apostle Paul?) when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, vs8, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus."
Please read vs 9-12 and tell me where there is a rapture before all of this takes place? Now, let me say nobody in their right mind wants to go through the great tribualtion. The point is the fact that Jesus Christ is coming for His church and we should all be about the Lord's work in the meantime.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
My verses harmonise with yours.
I am able to embrace them all.
Your beliefs reject my verses.
Read rev 19. It has no rapture or dead raised.
Jesus returns from heaven with his bride.
Nothing anywhere suggests the bride is on earth at rev 19.
Jesus returns postrib on a mission.
Gathering the bride ain't part of it.
it says that for me too. have to be paid member to start conversation. its ok but ahwatukee you are the pre-trib expert here so can you answer me this:
why does revelation 16:15 say Jesus is still coming like a thief? he still hasnt come yet and we are in the middle of the vials of wrath already? shouldnt he return in pre-trib?
Jesus will not be coming to earth as Judge at the rapture of the Church. Verse 15 is describing His second coming to earth as Judge and King. Notice it warns about keeping ones garment. This is not the Church. Jesus has washed and keeps our garments spotless because of His shed blood.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
it speaks about keeping the garments. and rapture is coming as thief in the night and second coming is also coming as thief in the night?