Didn't you try to use 'the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable' to prove that believers can't lose their salvation? Yes, or no?
Not By Works
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Thats a reformed statement of faith right there
Look up the website's article on the TULIP and get back to me, actually here it is: https://www.gotquestions.org/doctrines-of-grace.html . Read and weep
Everything in that section of salvation is what reformed theology teaches as well. Perhaps you are just misunderstanding the position and are so up in arms about it? Could this be a case of attacking a strawman?That is right. They could not go out from the covering of the blood on the door jambs. If they did they would not be protected from the destroying angel. Likewise, when a person leaves the household where the covering of the blood is in unbelief, they will not be protected and passed over but will be destroyed.
Christ becomes ineffective in justification for believers who abandon justification in Christ and seek justification any other way. They have fallen from grace. That is what it says.
Galatians 5:4 KJV
"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace"
That would be in John 6:60-71
When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
66After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67So Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” 68Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” 70Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” 71He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray him.
By the way, Judas was not just a disciple, but was also a apostle.
Judas Thaddaeus was an Apostle. This is not the same man known as Judas Iscariot.
The appointed Apostles of Jesus fulfilled the Great Commission, this directive, or blessing from Christ unto His Disciples, occurred after Jesus' resurrection. (The Book of Matthew 28)
mathētēs = Greek for Disciple
apóstolos =Apostle =a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders
- specifically applied to the twelve apostles of Christ
- in a broader sense applied to other eminent Christian teachers
- of Barnabas
- of Timothy and Silvanus
It is true the Disciple post was temporary for those that were Disciples of Christ. They later became Apostles, Matthew 20.
I didn't try anything. And yes, I did say God tells us His free gift of grace is irrevocable.
You are trying to say that when one loses faith they lose their Salvation. That is not true. The moment a person repents of their sins and holds faith in Jesus they are sealed by the Holy Spirit. This can never be revoked or undone.
The teaching that we, who were genuinely faithful believers in Christ, can lose our Salvation is false. And it makes Jesus a liar.
Now this is the pointed difference between nominal Christians and true Holy Spirit filled Christians.
Again, the parable of the prodigal son delivers this message clearly. The son sought to enjoy material things with mere money from the estate his father held for him in trust. Rather than await his fathers passing the son wanted his inheritance then and now , and it was given him. He left his father and went into the world and spent it all.
Ashamed he fell to the lowest place in his life. Even supping with pigs because he was poor now. Then he braved his fears and returned to his father, realizing the world was not compassionate and would have let him starve for lack of the currency it required to sustain ones life there.
And the father seeing his son return home rejoiced and wept with joy and welcomed him home. And there was a great celebratory feast to honor the prodigal.
While his brother was deeply angered at this and thought it not right.
Those who lose faith and stay gone were never the faithful in Christ. Jesus said those who come to him he will never cast out.
Those who leave and never return were never His in the first place.
The prodigal son is a metaphor for the true member of Christ's body; the redeemed in Christ.
Just because a Christian may think God is not there for them, and abandons faith for whatever reason does not mean God abandons them. Doubting Thomas is another example that God's grace is irrevocable.
I knew someone who went through a heck of a lot in their young life. Talk about train wreck, their suffering appeared as if every car including the engine flew off the tracks one by one.
Their faith was tested all the way through and they held fast until one last devastating hit. And then they decided God had abandoned them and they in return abandoned faith in Him.
Years later when they realized life didn't get any better, they fell to their knees and prayed. Something they'd never done in all those years after they left faith behind.
A gun on the hotel bed, a huge bottle of Jameson chilling in an ice bucket. Liquid courage to pull the trigger.
Tell me I'm not suppose to die tonight God. Prove you're there.
He took a shower, waited for a sign. Returned to the room wrapped in robe, sat down on the bed, opened the Jameson figuring he had his answer when all was silent, turned on the TV and prepared to get smashed so he could die by his own hand.
A commercial was just ending as he readied to take the first drink when the next thing to appear on the TV was the 700 club's near closing segment where the two teachers on the show proceeded to give, as usual, revelations they received from God.
Paraphrasing what was said because he didn't exactly take notes, the woman said there is a young man who thinks God has abandoned him and he's ready to die because he feels so lost. Know this, God heard you and he has never stopped calling you back home.
This was many years ago and today this man serves in the local church, commits to missionary work, and loves God.
I know this because he's my cousin.
Right after that revelation from the TV he got a cell phone call. It was me telling him that I couldn't get him out of my mind all day long and wanted to know how his life was going.
Don't tell me that just because we may be weak that God leaves us and revokes His promise. God knows the heart. He knows the nominal believers, name only. And those who are eternally sealed unto the last day by Holy Spirit God.
If I had a dollar for everytime someone used strawman in error.Thats a reformed statement of faith right there
Look up the website's article on the TULIP and get back to me, actually here it is: https://www.gotquestions.org/doctrines-of-grace.html . Read and weep
Read and realize, Got Questions, answers questions.
That link is to their answer concerning the question you missed.
What are the doctrines of grace?
Perhaps you did not read the article, even the first part, because you thought you would laugh thinking you "got me" with your rant claim of strawman. Meanwhile, you ignore GT's faith statement that in no wise pertains to proclamation they are Calvinist or sustain TULIP in that faith statement.
Question: "What are the doctrines of grace?"
Answer: The phrase “doctrines of grace” is used as a replacement for the term “Calvinism,” in order to remove the attention from John Calvin and instead focus on how the specific points are biblically and theologically sound. The phrase “doctrines of grace” describes the soteriological doctrines that are unique to Reformed theology, which is Calvinistic. These doctrines are summarized with the acronym TULIP. The T in TULIP stands for Total Depravity, U for Unconditional Election, L for Limited Atonement, I for Irresistible Grace, and P for Perseverance of the Saints.
Reformed Christians believe that all five of the doctrines of grace are derived directly from the Scripture and that the acronym TULIP accurately describes the Bible’s teaching on soteriology—the doctrine of salvation. The following is a brief description of each of the letters in the acronym TULIP.
Total Depravity - As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all of Adam’s descendants are spiritually dead in their trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1, 5). Calvinists are quick to point out that this does not mean that all people are as bad as they could be. Rather, this doctrine says that, as a result of man’s fall in Adam, all people are radically depraved from the inside and that their depravity affects every area of their lives.
Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable (and stubbornly unwilling) to initiate a saving response to God. In light of this, God, from eternity past, mercifully elected a particular people unto salvation (Ephesians 1:4–6). These people are comprised of men and women from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation (Revelation 5:9). Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not contingent on man’s response to God’s grace (Romans 8:29–30; 9:11; Ephesians 1:11–12) because man, in his fallen state, is both unable and unwilling to respond favorably to Christ’s offer of salvation.
Limited Atonement - The purpose of Christ’s atoning death was not to merely make men savable and thus leaving the salvation of humanity contingent on man’s response to God’s grace. Rather, the purpose of the atonement was to secure the redemption of a particular people (Ephesians 1:4–6; John 17:9). All whom God has elected and Christ died for will be saved (John 6:37–40, 44). Many Reformed Christians prefer the term “particular redemption” as they feel that this phrase more accurately captures the essence of this doctrine. It is not so much that Christ’s atonement is limited as it is particular, intended for a specific people—God’s elect.
Irresistible Grace - God has elected a particular people to be the recipients of Christ’s atoning work. These people are drawn to Christ by a grace that is irresistible. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37, 44; 10:16). This teaching does not mean that God saves men against their will. Rather, God changes the heart of the rebellious unbeliever so that he now desires to repent and be saved. God’s elect will be drawn to Him, and that grace that draws them is, in fact, irresistible. God replaces the unbeliever’s heart of stone with a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26). In Reformed theology, regeneration precedes faith.
Perseverance of the Saints - The particular people God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None of those whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure in Him (John 10:27–29; Romans 8:29–30; Ephesians 1:3–14). Some Reformed theologians prefer to use the term “Preservation of the Saints” as they believe that this choice of words more accurately describes how God is directly responsible for the preservation of His elect. It is clear in Scripture that Christ continues to intercede for His people (Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25). This continues to provide believers with the assurance that those that belong to Christ are eternally His.
These five doctrines together form the doctrines of grace, so called because they summarize the salvation experience as the result of the grace of God, who acts independently of man’s will. No effort or act of man can add to the grace of God to bring about the redemption of the soul. For truly it is “by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast” (Ephesians 2:8–9).
Read and learn.
Section 7: Salvation
We believe that salvation is a gift of God's grace through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross (Ephesians 2:8-9). Christ's death fully accomplished justification through faith and redemption from sin. Christ died in our place (Romans 5:8-9) and bore our sins in His own body (1 Peter 2:24). On the third day after His death, Jesus physically rose again, demonstrating His victory over sin and death (Romans 14:9).
We believe salvation is received by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Good works and obedience are results of salvation, not requirements for salvation. Due to the greatness, sufficiency, and perfection of Christ's sacrifice, all those who have truly received Christ as Savior are eternally secure in salvation, kept by God's power, secured and sealed in Christ forever (John 6:37-40; 10:27-30; Romans 8:1, 38-39; Ephesians 1:13-14; 1 Peter 1:5; Jude 24). Just as salvation cannot be earned by good works, neither does it need good works to be maintained or sustained. Good works and changed lives are the inevitable results of salvation (James 2).
And since this hasn't been brought up, and for those who believe we can lose our Salvation that was no thing deserved by us, nor accomplished by us, remember the Apostle Peter who denied Christ , as Christ said he would, three times before the cock crowed and prior to Jesus being crucified.
Did Peter lose his Salvation?
Watch someone say, no because Peter wasn't saved!
No, he did not lose his Salvation. That teaching was for us also. Jesus forgave Peter.
Did Peter lose his Salvation?
Watch someone say, no because Peter wasn't saved!
No, he did not lose his Salvation. That teaching was for us also. Jesus forgave Peter.
John 6:66-67 (NIV)
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67 "You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.
They are called disciples, as long as they followed a particular Teacher. In essence it was the only means to be "a Learner", and usually the discipleship ended when the teacher left the area.
You see, I have known for a LONG TIME the word Disciple only meant "follower or learner". NOTHING MORE, it was common place to see people wanting to learn from a Teacher, and so they follower him for two reason, to learn from him and for the Show, and in Jesus case it was quite entertaining. It NEVER mean more than a "follower or learner", and few people insisted the be called a disciple after the teacher was gone. So most would follow the Teacher only for a little while when He was in the area. Christians and Churches over the centuries, put way more importance on the word Disciple, than when it was originally spoken. You see Books were in SHORT SUPPLY, and VERY EXPENSIVE, so they would follow for awhile to learn directly from him, as many were illiterate.
Abandoning the faith, and doubt are two different things. You can have doubts and begin to question the reality of God and the gospel when things get tough. God does not turn you over to that. What he will turn you over to without chance of repentance is when you know the reality of the Gospel but you choose to walk away anyway in the face of full knowledge and revelation. That's what the Pharisees did when they saw Jesus do miracles. They refused to believe in the face of the irrefutable testimony of the Holy Spirit in the miracles Jesus was doing, calling him a liar even though they knew he was not a liar and really was who he said he was. That's called blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. That sin, in the end, will not be forgiven.
He doesn't turn his people over because of weakness or ignorance. He turns them over when they decide to no longer trust in Him in the face of the irrefutable testimony of the Holy Spirit. They have clear revelation of the reality and truth of the gospel but choose to leave anyway. Ultimately, no forgiveness for that sin exists. If somebody reading this has done that, turn back before it's too late and God doesn't let you come back.
Galatians 3:1 NIV
"You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified."
First off, genuinely faithful believers in Christ don't lose their salvation. Believers who used to be genuine and faithful and have turned away from Christ in knowing unbelief do.
Secondly, Christ did not say you can not lose your salvation. He said he did not lose any the Father gave him. His ministry is perfect and will not fail those whom the Father has sent to him for salvation. But you are free to decide to leave and not believe and rely on Christ if that's what you ultimately want. The failure won't be Christ's. He doesn't lose them because of his own fault. It will be the fault of the person who no longer wants to retain the testimony of the Spirit within them. The fault lies in the soil of his heart, not in the seed planted in it. Judas was not lost because of some fault in Christ. Judas was lost because of Judas.
Peter would be among the damned to this day if he had not come back to Christ. And one day we will find out if the Galatians heeded Paul's warning to come back to Christ or if they refused his warning and were eventually turned over to their unbelief and lost and locked out from the chance to believe again.
In John chapter 6, we see that many of Jesus' disciples complained and were offended (verses 60-61) about what Jesus said in verses 51-59. These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. (John 6:64) They also walked with Him no more. So apparently, these alleged disciples of Jesus set out to be learners and followers of Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) but as soon as Jesus said something that was hard for them to understand and did not line up with their expectations, they left Him. True disciples of the Master continue.
In John 8:31, Jesus said - "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine." Those who do not continue in His word demonstrate that they are not truly disciples of Jesus. Temporarily setting out to be a learner and follower of Christ, but then permanently turning away later when the going gets tough or your expectations are not met, demonstrates that you were not truly His disciple, as with Judas Iscariot who an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)
If you read in John 8:31-59, you will see that the Jews who were said to have "believed in Him" turned out to be: slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. So we can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe in His name/believe in Him" and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18).
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
A person who has no faith denies Jesus, and is termed antichrist, because they are against christ
the apostle John, who walked with Christ for three years let’s us know about these impostors who used to walk among us in church. Vs those who remain in faith,
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[d] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you[e] know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
as you can see
the true believer has the anointing, the false believer who never had true living faith never had the donor the father, and were never part of the true living church. They did not lose salvation, they never had it, and their departure in unbelief manifested the fact they were never of us.
the author of hebrews, who wrote another highly contested passage about falling away, had this to say about our security in Christ.
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
as you can see, the author says clearly, by christs sacrifice, those of us who are in the process of being sanctified (Ie, god is sanctifying us, we are not sanctifying ourselves) have been perfected forever,
we also have the passages that say we HAVE.ETERNAL LIFE. The he will NEVER LOSE EVEN ONE our SEAL OF THE SPIRIT which can not be broken, and all the other passages which show our justification is eternal, our sanctification is conditional, but our eternity is assured, even when we are faithless (without faith) he is faithful ,he can not deny himself
our salvation is purchased by his blood and his promise. If he does not keep his word, in spite of us, he is the one who is faithless, and a liar
these people want you to believe salvation is iffy, only yours if you do this,from the many sacraments of the Catholic church, to these who simply say, remain in faith, all legalism and all self savers, denying the promises and perfect gift of Christ
the apostle John, who walked with Christ for three years let’s us know about these impostors who used to walk among us in church. Vs those who remain in faith,
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[d] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you[e] know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
as you can see
the true believer has the anointing, the false believer who never had true living faith never had the donor the father, and were never part of the true living church. They did not lose salvation, they never had it, and their departure in unbelief manifested the fact they were never of us.
the author of hebrews, who wrote another highly contested passage about falling away, had this to say about our security in Christ.
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
as you can see, the author says clearly, by christs sacrifice, those of us who are in the process of being sanctified (Ie, god is sanctifying us, we are not sanctifying ourselves) have been perfected forever,
we also have the passages that say we HAVE.ETERNAL LIFE. The he will NEVER LOSE EVEN ONE our SEAL OF THE SPIRIT which can not be broken, and all the other passages which show our justification is eternal, our sanctification is conditional, but our eternity is assured, even when we are faithless (without faith) he is faithful ,he can not deny himself
our salvation is purchased by his blood and his promise. If he does not keep his word, in spite of us, he is the one who is faithless, and a liar
these people want you to believe salvation is iffy, only yours if you do this,from the many sacraments of the Catholic church, to these who simply say, remain in faith, all legalism and all self savers, denying the promises and perfect gift of Christ
How many of us today are like unto Peter? by our behaviors we can effectively contradict what we say and speak about Jesus and our relationship with him. We do not live as Disciples of Christ if we do not respond to those who profane His mission and message. We deny Jesus if we fail to study His word, and pray, and behave as indwelling Holy Spirit God leads us to. We deny Christ when we choose to act as the world would prefer, rather than stand firm in the truth of God in Christ.
Those among us who are members of a Denomination that turn a blind eye to immoral sin because a council of its elders voted to do so, is an example.
We abandon the teachings of Christ when we are hateful, mocking, condemning, berating of others due to our judgement they deserve such contempt because...enter whatever charge applies. Because they don't qualify to be treated with respect, I would think to be the first statement that precedes the aforementioned manner of treating others poorly.
Peter loved Jesus. That is the key to why Peter was recommissioned by Christ. Because as Jesus tells us, love is the foundation of the law and the prophets. If we act toward others in a manner that doesn't demonstrate love for them, as we're told we should even love our enemies, and those who do ill to us, we abandon Jesus commands unto us.
Those who did not love Jesus and leave were never in Christ in the first place. Nominal Christians are a different lot than Holy Spirit God filled Christians.
Come back? Nominal Christians were not there in the first place, so there is nothing o return to.
Not one who has been reborn in Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit leaves Jesus' hand.
Those who are in effect atheists who only thought they believed for a time were never a Christian in the first place.
However, if a one of those has an epiphany , as example, and realize they were foolish to not believe in Jesus and are sincerely repentant , God knows their heart and He does not abandon them to their sin.
Galatians 3:1 NIV
"You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified."[/QUOTE] That verse in Galatians was Paul's admonishment toward the mostly Gentile congregations of the churches Paul founded in Galatia. And after they'd been taught by Judaizers that they need to be circumcised and other rites, in order to be saved. Those who preached the law of works to them so as to confuse their minds and heart.
Therefore it was the Judaizers to whom Paul referred when he asked, who has bewitched you?
Judas was forgiven from the cross when Jesus said, forgive them Father for they know not what they do. Judas was one of those. He did not realize what he had done when he did what Jesus told him to go and do quickly. Were it not for Judas how else would Jesus have come to be the last lamb's blood sacrifice on the sin alter that is the cross?
How? Any ideas?
It means just what it says. True disciples continue in the word. As long as you are a true disciple you will abide in the word, and as long as you abide in the word you are a true disciple. You're reading into it that it means a true disciple will never stop continuing in the word and being a disciple. The Galatians were true disciples, yet they did not continue in the word. And neither did the Corinthians.
If your interpretation of John 8:31 and other verses is true then no one can ever know if they are a true disciple of Christ because the time of continuing in the word doesn't end until you die.
E
EleventhHour
Guest
Completely contradictory................... according to scripture "genuine" is not needed... one is either justified or is not justified, it is a position conferred by God and it cannot be broken.
Basically you promote a Gospel of works where salvation is gained/maintained by one's faithfulness...this is incorrect.
Tsk, Tsk!!
