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Not sure if your point is valid Hevosmies, if you're trying to make a case that because the Laodicean group was a Church, therefore it's implied that they were saved? I would think on the contrary, expressions like 'spew you out', 'repent', '...only to the one who is victorious I will give life', are depicting this particular group as in need of repentence, because their salvation was in question.
Thus, I would believe that 'All' means all and any, not just to a group who, allregedly, is already saved.
Thus, I would believe that 'All' means all and any, not just to a group who, allregedly, is already saved.
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I'll try very briefly, sorry I don't have verses with me (may not need them).
#1 Immediately at the fall, God himself said that 'they have become like us knowing good and evil. (God does not have a fallen nature)
#2 Several times after the fall, God claims that man is still created in his image (In Adam's image Seth was born - which was God's image, he who kills will be killed for he is created in God's image - Gen 9:6)
#3 Noah was found to be a righteous man despite all others being wicked
#4 Lot was preserved from the destruction of Sodome due to his righteousness (Gen 19:29)
#5 Moses was said to be a friend to God, and no other was as meek as him (humble)
#6 David was a man after God's own heart.
#7 No one as righteous as my servant Job - Job 1:8
#8 Mosaic Law had capital punishment for certain crimes (you don't kill a lame man for not winning a race)
#9 Be holy, as I am Holy (naïve and futile commandment if this were impossible)
#10 One of the over-arching principles of the Bible is to be good (naïve and futile commandment if this were impossible)
#11 What were Adam & Eve before the fall (what caused them to defy God and sin)?
Don't forget Butterfly, when one laments about their wickedness, these are the sentiments of a righteous person. Depraved people do not recognize right from wrong, nor their own iniquity (Adulteress who wipes her mouth and says 'I've done no wrong' Prov 30:20)
i.e. a truly smart man will only tell you of how stupid that he is. Same with a righteous man, he will only state how wicked that he is. One cannot state that they are wicked, without their being goodness in them.
It is in this context that the Bible speaks of these things.
#1 Immediately at the fall, God himself said that 'they have become like us knowing good and evil. (God does not have a fallen nature)
#2 Several times after the fall, God claims that man is still created in his image (In Adam's image Seth was born - which was God's image, he who kills will be killed for he is created in God's image - Gen 9:6)
#3 Noah was found to be a righteous man despite all others being wicked
#4 Lot was preserved from the destruction of Sodome due to his righteousness (Gen 19:29)
#5 Moses was said to be a friend to God, and no other was as meek as him (humble)
#6 David was a man after God's own heart.
#7 No one as righteous as my servant Job - Job 1:8
#8 Mosaic Law had capital punishment for certain crimes (you don't kill a lame man for not winning a race)
#9 Be holy, as I am Holy (naïve and futile commandment if this were impossible)
#10 One of the over-arching principles of the Bible is to be good (naïve and futile commandment if this were impossible)
#11 What were Adam & Eve before the fall (what caused them to defy God and sin)?
Don't forget Butterfly, when one laments about their wickedness, these are the sentiments of a righteous person. Depraved people do not recognize right from wrong, nor their own iniquity (Adulteress who wipes her mouth and says 'I've done no wrong' Prov 30:20)
i.e. a truly smart man will only tell you of how stupid that he is. Same with a righteous man, he will only state how wicked that he is. One cannot state that they are wicked, without their being goodness in them.
It is in this context that the Bible speaks of these things.
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Butterfly
It might help to consider the following.
Originally Calvin spoke of different levels of grace,
he spoke of a grace that was general, yet failed to save.
Later theologians after Calvin developed the doctrine of common grace
a bit further. Although man is totally depraved in his nature due to the fall
there is operating in the world a general grace (a grace common to all even the animal kingdom)
this grace from above balances out the totalness of depravity. Even ungenerate man sees the
beauty of creation and knows there is a creator. As animals often care for their young and will
even die for their young so it is that even the pagan will often love his children, this si the grace
of God operating in the fallen creation yet falling short of actually saving a man, special effectual
grace saves. That is the plouighed heart, where the seec an fall in and grow. The new heart,
the born again experience.
Rom 1:19
For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine
nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without
excuse. 21For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him,
but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts.…
This speaks of the savage knowing there is a God yet worshipping beasts and images.
They enjoy creation, understand it's beauty.
So depravity is balanced by grace
When God withdraws grace man is dissobetient, i.e. as was Pharoah, one minute agreeing
to follow God's instructions
then rebelling.
It might help to consider the following.
Originally Calvin spoke of different levels of grace,
he spoke of a grace that was general, yet failed to save.
Later theologians after Calvin developed the doctrine of common grace
a bit further. Although man is totally depraved in his nature due to the fall
there is operating in the world a general grace (a grace common to all even the animal kingdom)
this grace from above balances out the totalness of depravity. Even ungenerate man sees the
beauty of creation and knows there is a creator. As animals often care for their young and will
even die for their young so it is that even the pagan will often love his children, this si the grace
of God operating in the fallen creation yet falling short of actually saving a man, special effectual
grace saves. That is the plouighed heart, where the seec an fall in and grow. The new heart,
the born again experience.
Rom 1:19
For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine
nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without
excuse. 21For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him,
but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts.…
This speaks of the savage knowing there is a God yet worshipping beasts and images.
They enjoy creation, understand it's beauty.
So depravity is balanced by grace
When God withdraws grace man is dissobetient, i.e. as was Pharoah, one minute agreeing
to follow God's instructions
then rebelling.
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DB7
Righteous does not mean perfect.
It means to be right with God.
David sinned as bad as any man.
Moses sinned and was punished.
Lot chose to live with a corrupt people and fornicated whilst drunk.
All the old saints sinned except Enoch and Elijah, both escaped physical death.
But because they worshipped God and loved His commandments they were made
righteous by faith in a Redeemer to come.
Righteous does not mean perfect.
It means to be right with God.
David sinned as bad as any man.
Moses sinned and was punished.
Lot chose to live with a corrupt people and fornicated whilst drunk.
All the old saints sinned except Enoch and Elijah, both escaped physical death.
But because they worshipped God and loved His commandments they were made
righteous by faith in a Redeemer to come.
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Butterflyyy
You have said I am teaching heresy and called someone rude.
If you do this again I will have to report you. Post #9 and Post #20.
Please follow the rules and conventions of this forum, it is meant a pleasant discussion with friends.
We don't call anyone's views heretical or any person heretical.
You have said I am teaching heresy and called someone rude.
If you do this again I will have to report you. Post #9 and Post #20.
Please follow the rules and conventions of this forum, it is meant a pleasant discussion with friends.
We don't call anyone's views heretical or any person heretical.
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Butterflyy said:
"And we DO know that it is also written that Christ died for ALL and that WHOSOEVER believes
in the Lord Jesus Christ will not perish but have everlasting life."
I think it is important to qualify Bible statements. Christ died sufficient for all,
But Jesus' suffering cannot cure unbelief. If they die in their sin they go to hell.
If they die in unbelief, there cannot be any washing away of sin. It is faith that
saves, so if Jesus died to atone for their sin, they would be in heaven else
He died in vain. He died sufficient for all me, if they believe.
"And we DO know that it is also written that Christ died for ALL and that WHOSOEVER believes
in the Lord Jesus Christ will not perish but have everlasting life."
I think it is important to qualify Bible statements. Christ died sufficient for all,
But Jesus' suffering cannot cure unbelief. If they die in their sin they go to hell.
If they die in unbelief, there cannot be any washing away of sin. It is faith that
saves, so if Jesus died to atone for their sin, they would be in heaven else
He died in vain. He died sufficient for all me, if they believe.
Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.
Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
God wants all people to be repent, come to the knowledge of the truth, and be saved.
Some people have a faulty interpretation for the Bible.
When the Bible says the saints are predestined to salvation it does not mean God chooses who will be saved and not saved without their choice, but means God already had the plan of salvation to give mankind before He laid down the foundation of the world, so it is the same as if the saints already have that salvation for God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened, for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future it is the same as if it happened in the beginning, for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.
Like the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, and the prophets blood shed from the foundation of the world.
And this salvation is to whoever wants it.
God is love, and His kingdom love, and He is not evil, so it goes against the nature of God for Him to choose without our choice in the matter.
If you program your computer to say I love you does your computer really love you, and if you program it to say I hate you will you get mad and smash it to pieces.
No person comes to the Son unless the Father draws them, and no person says Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost, and Peter said Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, and Jesus said flesh and blood did not reveal that to him but the Father.
Many are called but few are chosen, which God does the calling and choosing on earth.
God chose us we did not choose Him, and when God calls a person He will work in their life to get them to the truth, and when they get to the door of truth they have to choose whether to go through it or not, but they would of not gotten to the door of truth if God did not intervene in their life.
Some people do not get to the door of truth, and some people get to the door of truth but do not go through it, which they have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, from such turn away, ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, and it points out their sins, which they are lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God.
Which the Lord knows them that are His having this seal that everyone that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity, and awake to righteousness, and sin not, but some do not have the knowledge of God.
Which a Spirit led life will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, for they have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, and show the ways of the Spirit and not the flesh, and God will not allow them to be tempted above what they are able, and will give them an escape from the temptation so they can bear it.
So there is no excuse which not everyone that says Lord Lord will dwell with Jesus, for they did not do the will of the Father, and were workers of iniquity.
Many people who believe in Calvinism seem to have hypocrisy, and worldliness about them, and many say they cannot abstain from sin, and sin daily, and their sin does not affect their relationship with God, so they are holding unto sin.
The Bible says turn away from them.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.
Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
God wants all people to be repent, come to the knowledge of the truth, and be saved.
Some people have a faulty interpretation for the Bible.
When the Bible says the saints are predestined to salvation it does not mean God chooses who will be saved and not saved without their choice, but means God already had the plan of salvation to give mankind before He laid down the foundation of the world, so it is the same as if the saints already have that salvation for God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened, for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future it is the same as if it happened in the beginning, for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.
Like the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, and the prophets blood shed from the foundation of the world.
And this salvation is to whoever wants it.
God is love, and His kingdom love, and He is not evil, so it goes against the nature of God for Him to choose without our choice in the matter.
If you program your computer to say I love you does your computer really love you, and if you program it to say I hate you will you get mad and smash it to pieces.
No person comes to the Son unless the Father draws them, and no person says Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost, and Peter said Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, and Jesus said flesh and blood did not reveal that to him but the Father.
Many are called but few are chosen, which God does the calling and choosing on earth.
God chose us we did not choose Him, and when God calls a person He will work in their life to get them to the truth, and when they get to the door of truth they have to choose whether to go through it or not, but they would of not gotten to the door of truth if God did not intervene in their life.
Some people do not get to the door of truth, and some people get to the door of truth but do not go through it, which they have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, from such turn away, ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, and it points out their sins, which they are lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God.
Which the Lord knows them that are His having this seal that everyone that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity, and awake to righteousness, and sin not, but some do not have the knowledge of God.
Which a Spirit led life will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, for they have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, and show the ways of the Spirit and not the flesh, and God will not allow them to be tempted above what they are able, and will give them an escape from the temptation so they can bear it.
So there is no excuse which not everyone that says Lord Lord will dwell with Jesus, for they did not do the will of the Father, and were workers of iniquity.
Many people who believe in Calvinism seem to have hypocrisy, and worldliness about them, and many say they cannot abstain from sin, and sin daily, and their sin does not affect their relationship with God, so they are holding unto sin.
The Bible says turn away from them.
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Let's take Article I and examine its wording closely:
1. There is no Scripture which says that God has DECREED salvation for anyone. So this part corresponds to Reformed Theology which teaches that God has decreed everything (good and evil) from the very beginning (which is not so), and he has decreed the salvation of the elect.
2. But this portion avoids the Calvinistic teaching that God decrees salvation only for the elect, and instead postulates that God decrees "to save" those "who shall believe on His Son Jesus..."
3. Had that been all that was said it would have been partially acceptable. But it does not stop there. It goes on to add "and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end". This is the Arminian idea that salvation also depends on the perseverance of those who are saved. But that is not what Scripture teaches. Eternal life is God's GIFT of grace to the one who repents and believes, and "the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (irrevocable). Which does not mean that believes are not appointed unto good works, but it does mean that they do not maintain their salvation through their perseverance.
4. Now this is pure Reformed Theology, which postulates that God decrees the damnation of unbelievers. God decrees none for salvation or damnation, but instead offers salvation to "whosoever will" and indeed God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
5. This is a MISAPPLICATION of John 3:36, which teaches the exact opposite of what is being stated. John 3:36 must be taken in the context of John 3:14-36, where we see that while God offers salvation to all, only those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved. At the same time there is a dire warning that those who fail to obey the Gospel will face the wrath of God. But God does not decree wrath while offering salvation.
1. There is no Scripture which says that God has DECREED salvation for anyone. So this part corresponds to Reformed Theology which teaches that God has decreed everything (good and evil) from the very beginning (which is not so), and he has decreed the salvation of the elect.
2. But this portion avoids the Calvinistic teaching that God decrees salvation only for the elect, and instead postulates that God decrees "to save" those "who shall believe on His Son Jesus..."
3. Had that been all that was said it would have been partially acceptable. But it does not stop there. It goes on to add "and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end". This is the Arminian idea that salvation also depends on the perseverance of those who are saved. But that is not what Scripture teaches. Eternal life is God's GIFT of grace to the one who repents and believes, and "the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (irrevocable). Which does not mean that believes are not appointed unto good works, but it does mean that they do not maintain their salvation through their perseverance.
4. Now this is pure Reformed Theology, which postulates that God decrees the damnation of unbelievers. God decrees none for salvation or damnation, but instead offers salvation to "whosoever will" and indeed God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
5. This is a MISAPPLICATION of John 3:36, which teaches the exact opposite of what is being stated. John 3:36 must be taken in the context of John 3:14-36, where we see that while God offers salvation to all, only those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved. At the same time there is a dire warning that those who fail to obey the Gospel will face the wrath of God. But God does not decree wrath while offering salvation.
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