The need for spiritual gifts

[garee]

Whatever it takes to make God mute. It is a power play, now in order to hear from God you need to sit under their teachers that went to this and that seminary.

Most people in Church history have never had access to the Bible until very recently, Holy Spirit was always available and STILL IS

We have the perfect or complete book of the law, prophecy. . with no laws missing by which we could know God more adequately .
Them without the gospel, the book of the law perish without the gospel. Those who do hear and are judged by the book of the law are them who did believe as a anchor to their new souls. Those who did hear it and did not believe they will perish without the effects of gospel

Its one of those do not leave earth without it.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

What we need is the law seen... and or mixed with the law of faith not seen in order to make it complete or perfect . In part they perform nothing.. As one working together as it seems 8 they do many wonderful works in us.

The law of the Lord is perfect, "converting the soul": the testimony of the Lord is sure, "making wise the simple". The statutes of the Lord are right, "rejoicing the heart": the commandment of the Lord is pure, "enlightening the eyes".The fear of the Lord is clean, "enduring for ever": the judgments of the Lord "are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb". Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is "great reward". Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults. Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength, and my redeemer.Psalaams 19:7-14

 

[TooFastTurtle]

We have the perfect or complete book of the law, prophecy. . with no laws missing by which we could know God more adequately .
Them without the gospel, the book of the law perish without the gospel. Those who do hear and are judged by the book of the law are them who did believe as a anchor to their new souls. Those who did hear it and did not believe they will perish without the effects of gospel

Its one of those do not leave earth without it.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

What we need is the law seen... and or mixed with the law of faith not seen in order to make it complete or perfect . In part they perform nothing.. As one working together as it seems 8 they do many wonderful works in us.

The law of the Lord is perfect, "converting the soul": the testimony of the Lord is sure, "making wise the simple". The statutes of the Lord are right, "rejoicing the heart": the commandment of the Lord is pure, "enlightening the eyes".The fear of the Lord is clean, "enduring for ever": the judgments of the Lord "are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb". Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is "great reward". Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults. Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength, and my redeemer.Psalaams 19:7-14

What on earth are you talking about? Sorry I honestly have no idea about what you are trying to say.

 

[Dino246]

We have the perfect or complete book of the law, prophecy. . with no laws missing by which we could know God more adequately .

You keep stating this as though it is a meaningful refutation of the continuationist position. It isn't. Why are you closed to learning what other people actually believe?

Them without the gospel, the book of the law perish without the gospel.

This is not a sentence.

Those who do hear and are judged by the book of the law are them who did believe as a anchor to their new souls.

This is a sentence, barely, but it makes no sense.

Those who did hear it and did not believe they will perish without the effects of gospel

To call this a sentence would be a stretch, and again it makes no sense.

Its one of those do not leave earth without it.

This is not a sentence either.

 

[KelbyofGod]

Scripture is the written word of God, but God's words written down are not necessarily Scripture.

Dino,
I've been considering this statement also. And I can agree in some instances such as if God specifically says "don't record this". (which He has said at times and I assume is because writing those things at that time wouldn't actually bring edification to man) But other than that, I've been trying to find the wording to express the truth of what true prophecy is.

And this is a slight change of thought but I'm going to say this part bluntly... It is a falsehood (and doctrine of man) to believe that the bible contains ALL scripture, if for no other reason than that the bible itself references SEVERAL other books and writings which are suggested to impart truth, but only some of which were voted good enough to be included in 'the bible'. Truly the bible contains SOME of the scriptures, but you should realize that "canonization into the bible" isn't what makes something scripture.

Perhaps we should look at that last statement more closely. DO you believe that canonization into the bible is what made some writings "scripture"?? If "YES", then were those writings somehow not scripture before they were canonized? Did canonization impart some special power upon them? (I think not). And if "NO", then why do we act like being approved by that particular group of men is such a deal breaker.

Either something (like any given prophecy or writing) is the word of God...or it isn't. If it is, then it is trustable, reliable and able to be used. If it is not, then it is to be dealt with accordingly.

The bible tells us ALL to "prove all things, hold fast that which is good". (which makes no suggestion of trusting what some group of men decided some hundreds of years ago about a particular set of scriptures that we now call the Bible).

And for clarification, I'm not advocating any particular additional writing (except perhaps those already mentioned in the bible itself), nor am I discounting the scriptures that indeed ARE included in the bible. I am however, suggesting that if we transfer our trust to a committee of men, we are forsaking the commandment given in 1 Thes. 5:21... How then could we criticize those who similarly forsake the verse before it for a similar transfer of trust to the exact same committee?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[JaumeJ]

It seems to my understanding the Bible, guided by the Holy Spirit, is all that is needed.

True, I certainly believe our Maaker continues to speak to each of us, but in my own case, He has ony underscored what is attainable in the Word already.

He has said things to me that i HAVE FOUND IN THE Word...WHEN i FIRST BELIEVED, AND hE HAS SHOWN ME WONDERFUL THINGS, STILL UNDERSTROOD by the Holy Spirit when rfeading the Word.

When the Holy Spirit first entered into me, a message came with saying kK"everything is going to be just fine." That in itself was enough for any to know all will be fine.

A bit of advice to the believers, when reading the Word, specifically the Good news, if it sounds bad, you are not yet understanding.God bless all in Jesus, Yeshua.

 

[dodgingstones]

How can a believer do what God has purposed them to do without Spiritual gifts?

 

[Dino246]

How can a believer do what God has purposed them to do without Spiritual gifts?

Hello and welcome to CC!

The answer to your question depends entirely on your definition of "spiritual gifts" and on God's specific purposes. If you have a very broad definition of gifts that includes life itself, then the answer is "They can't, period." If you mean the specific nine gifts in 1 Corinthians (or even the longer list including the five-fold ministry gifts and a few others), then the second criteria is relevant. God's purpose for me in this moment might be to pick up the garbage in the church parking lot; I don't need to be gifted with prophecy or discernment for that.

 

[dodgingstones]

Hello and welcome to CC!

The answer to your question depends entirely on your definition of "spiritual gifts" and on God's specific purposes. If you have a very broad definition of gifts that includes life itself, then the answer is "They can't, period." If you mean the specific nine gifts in 1 Corinthians (or even the longer list including the five-fold ministry gifts and a few others), then the second criteria is relevant. God's purpose for me in this moment might be to pick up the garbage in the church parking lot; I don't need to be gifted with prophecy or discernment for that.

But, there are more than 9 in Scripture. One of them is the gifts of "helps", and that fits right in with your thoughts.

 

[dodgingstones]

1 Corinthians 12:28....

This Chapter lists several gifts.

 

[Dino246]

Dino,
I've been considering this statement also. And I can agree in some instances such as if God specifically says "don't record this". (which He has said at times and I assume is because writing those things at that time wouldn't actually bring edification to man) But other than that, I've been trying to find the wording to express the truth of what true prophecy is.

And this is a slight change of thought but I'm going to say this part bluntly... It is a falsehood (and doctrine of man) to believe that the bible contains ALL scripture, if for no other reason than that the bible itself references SEVERAL other books and writings which are suggested to impart truth, but only some of which were voted good enough to be included in 'the bible'. Truly the bible contains SOME of the scriptures, but you should realize that "canonization into the bible" isn't what makes something scripture.

Perhaps we should look at that last statement more closely. DO you believe that canonization into the bible is what made some writings "scripture"?? If "YES", then were those writings somehow not scripture before they were canonized? Did canonization impart some special power upon them? (I think not). And if "NO", then why do we act like being approved by that particular group of men is such a deal breaker.

Either something (like any given prophecy or writing) is the word of God...or it isn't. If it is, then it is trustable, reliable and able to be used. If it is not, then it is to be dealt with accordingly.

The bible tells us ALL to "prove all things, hold fast that which is good". (which makes no suggestion of trusting what some group of men decided some hundreds of years ago about a particular set of scriptures that we now call the Bible).

And for clarification, I'm not advocating any particular additional writing (except perhaps those already mentioned in the bible itself), nor am I discounting the scriptures that indeed ARE included in the bible. I am however, suggesting that if we transfer our trust to a committee of men, we are forsaking the commandment given in 1 Thes. 5:21... How then could we criticize those who similarly forsake the verse before it for a similar transfer of trust to the exact same committee?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

I appreciate your thoughtful approach, though I disagree with almost every point you make.

I disagree with the idea that there are writings out there that are Scripture but are not in the Bible; that is a dangerous view that allows (or even encourages) individuals to decide for themselves the compass of God's written word. Scripture references a Cretan poet; does that make his poetry "scripture"? I don't think so. I think it is legitimate for canonical Scripture to refer to other works as truthful (or relevant) without implying that they also are "scripture".

My view of canonization is not that the various books and letters were selected ("voted") to be included in Scripture, but that they were recognized to be Scripture. That sweeps away the questions of their status prior to formal inclusion in the canon and the status of other writings presently considered extrabiblical.

Your view on prophecy seems to align with Garee's; that if God said something, it should be considered Scripture. I completely disagree, because God has spoken to me personally about personal matters that have no bearing on the Church as a whole (and the details of which I will keep to myself at this time). I believe that God intended some prophecy to be Scripture; this is supported by Scripture itself.

Regarding "trusting in a committee of men", we all do that. Or, more accurately, we trust that the infallible God is able to use fallible humans to bring about His purposes, including identifying the canon of Scripture. If you choose to reject every instance of "trusting in men (humans)" then you might as well toss your Bible in the trash, because humans wrote it down in the first place, and you can know nothing about God except what is directly revealed to you personally, and have no means of verifying its authenticity.

 

[Dino246]

But, there are more than 9 in Scripture. One of them is the gifts of "helps", and that fits right in with your thoughts.

Good point, but I think you might have missed mine: nobody can prophecy accurately without God, but anyone can pick up trash.

 

[dodgingstones]

Ok.... but all gifts are of the Spirit I believe. It's a heart thing.
😊

 

[Lanolin]

I think not everyone has read the entire Bible so a lot of peoole dont actually know all the prophecies it contains.

Which is why its important to read the Bible!

 

[garee]

What on earth are you talking about? Sorry I honestly have no idea about what you are trying to say.

We have the perfect or complete book of the law, prophecy with no laws missing by which we could know God more adequately . Why go above that which is written ?

 

[garee]

Your view on prophecy seems to align with Garee's; that if God said something, it should be considered Scripture. I completely disagree, because God has spoken to me personally about personal matters that have no bearing on the Church as a whole (and the details of which I will keep to myself at this time). I believe that God intended some prophecy to be Scripture; this is supported by Scripture itself.

I was not suggesting that if God said something, it should be considered Scripture. Then the whole world would not be able to contain the books that could of been written . . exposing the oral traditions of men that try and make the word of God as it is written without effect.

But just the opposite we know God has said something by looking at the scripture. It does not mean he has not spoken bringing his existing thoughts . he simply is not adding. Thus says the lord, I had a dream or a vision as a out of the body experience or tongues another manner of prophecy or he spoke a new parable, another manner of prophecy .

 

[Dino246]

I was not suggesting that if God said something, it should be considered Scripture. Then the whole world would not be able to contain the books that could of been written . . exposing the oral traditions of men that try and make the word of God as it is written without effect.

But just the opposite we know God has said something by looking at the scripture. It does not mean he has not spoken bringing his existing thoughts . he simply is not adding. Thus says the lord, I had a dream or a vision as a out of the body experience or tongues another manner of prophecy or he spoke a new parable, another manner of prophecy .

So... if you don't think that "everything God says should be considered Scripture", and that God is not adding to Scripture, then why do argue so much against the gift of prophecy? It should not be an issue for you, because we agree on these matters!

 

[stillness]

Kelby[/QUOTE]

Not *uncomfortable with* but clearly identified ad those belonging to the apostolic period. Signs, wonders, and miracles were primarily for the apostles and their companions (Hebrews 2). You can walk into any church of any denomination today, and this is exactly what you will see. All those who claim to be apostles and prophets today are charlatans.

This in no way excludes direct divine miraculous intervention through prayer (or sometimes even without prayer). Divine healing is now through prayer (James 5).

BTW no one *does away* with miracles. But bogus miracles are being performed by some to claim they have special powers. These same people also want poor gullible Christians to make the preachers prosper and maintain lavish lifestyles.

You give the impresion tha there are no more appostles (sent with a mission) in our day? Well because of people who believe like you must be why they have to bw callwd misionaries instead.

 

[JaumeJ]

It is true, so many who may claim to be an apostle today are charlatans but we must keep in mind the meaning of apostle, which is "sent out." I do believe many who are sent out are just that but not like the Twelve.

Another truth is that many congregations claiming to be given all the powers and gifts of the Holy Spirit ae a side show unbefitting worshipers of our Savior, however, again, the gifts are still around, just not so prevalent as with the Twelve. Always our faith is in Jesus, Yeshua, before any man...this must always be foremost in mind. There are people who prophecy, who are healers, teachers, with the gift of knowledge, people who speak in tongues and I suppose those who interpret. Do not be deceived, if they say they are doing anyof those things without giving all credit and glory to God, they are most likely self-deceved or simply demons. d God bless all who love Jesus, amen.

 

[KelbyofGod]

I appreciate your thoughtful approach, though I disagree with almost every point you make.

I disagree with the idea that there are writings out there that are Scripture but are not in the Bible; that is a dangerous view that allows (or even encourages) individuals to decide for themselves the compass of God's written word. Scripture references a Cretan poet; does that make his poetry "scripture"? I don't think so. I think it is legitimate for canonical Scripture to refer to other works as truthful (or relevant) without implying that they also are "scripture".

My view of canonization is not that the various books and letters were selected ("voted") to be included in Scripture, but that they were recognized to be Scripture. That sweeps away the questions of their status prior to formal inclusion in the canon and the status of other writings presently considered extrabiblical.

Your view on prophecy seems to align with Garee's; that if God said something, it should be considered Scripture. I completely disagree, because God has spoken to me personally about personal matters that have no bearing on the Church as a whole (and the details of which I will keep to myself at this time). I believe that God intended some prophecy to be Scripture; this is supported by Scripture itself.

Regarding "trusting in a committee of men", we all do that. Or, more accurately, we trust that the infallible God is able to use fallible humans to bring about His purposes, including identifying the canon of Scripture. If you choose to reject every instance of "trusting in men (humans)" then you might as well toss your Bible in the trash, because humans wrote it down in the first place, and you can know nothing about God except what is directly revealed to you personally, and have no means of verifying its authenticity.

Dino,
Sorry for the delay. Just been busy.

The need for discernment of God's word (whether written or prophesied) is exactly what each individual had to learn to do before there was a canonized "Bible".

This, like the spiritual gifts, is still in function today.


Perhaps I had the advantage in being raised in an inaccurate church (one that fell short of teaching the truth about salvation).

Once I'd discovered that my pastor was teaching false and incomplete doctrine, I did indeed distrust EVERYTHING I'd been taught. I had to take it ALL to God and ask him what he really requires....including whether the bible was true, and including praying in the name of Jesus....because all of those things were taught by my errant pastor. (God was indeed faithful to answer. And yes, some things that my pastor taught were actually correct. But until I sought God for the truth of it for myself, I didn't know... I was just trusting what others told me.)

God's word is no more (or less) powerful in either written or spoken forms. God's word is God's word. If God (or some other spirit) spoke something to you, it's either God's word or it isn't. If it is, you can trust is as surely as any scripture. If it's not, you can't trust it at all. Period. It's the difference between knowing God's voice and not knowing it. And I realize I'm not saying anything there that you don't already know. I personally feel like you are simply underestimating the importance of what you know.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[garee]

It is true, so many who may claim to be an apostle today are charlatans but we must keep in mind the meaning of apostle, which is "sent out." I do believe many who are sent out are just that but not like the Twelve.

Another truth is that many congregations claiming to be given all the powers and gifts of the Holy Spirit ae a side show unbefitting worshipers of our Savior, however, again, the gifts are still around, just not so prevalent as with the Twelve. Always our faith is in Jesus, Yeshua, before any man...this must always be foremost in mind. There are people who prophecy, who are healers, teachers, with the gift of knowledge, people who speak in tongues and I suppose those who interpret. Do not be deceived, if they say they are doing any of those things without giving all credit and glory to God, they are most likely self-deceived or simply demons. d God bless all who lovostle e Jesus, amen.

The 12 that were sent out were a remnant of all listed 27. The 12 were set apart for a exclusive reason to be used in a parable to represent all of the saints on this side of the reformation or cross. Apostles are used as walls describing his bride the church .(Revelation 21) While tribes are used as gates in which men, apostles are sent out or enter into.They represent the old testament saints that make up the same one bride the church .

Abel it would seem is the first apostle and first martyr sent out with the gospel . Cain the first murder first motivated by the father of lies . . . the murderer #1from that beginning.