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Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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The key word is 'ultimately'.
If the illuminated person persists long enough in a willful rejection of Christ, God will ultimately make it so they can't believe, hardening them in the position they have chosen to take despite the truth they know to be true through the Holy Spirit.
Not so true with willful, but ignorant, unbelief. There's always hope for that person because there's always hope they will receive illumination and not be ignorant anymore and stop sinning as a result. But what can you give to the person who is illuminated but hardens his heart to what he has been shown?
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EleventhHour
Guest
Illuminated means being shown by the Holy Spirit that something really is true. This goes beyond simply knowing about something. This is actually knowing something is true because the Holy Spirit told you it's true. Perhaps you remember a time when you knew about the gospel, and then later the time when you knew in your heart that what you had heard really was true.
See, anybody can know about the gospel. All you have to do is tell them about it. But only those illuminated by the testimony of the Holy Spirit speaking into their heart can know it's really true. From there that illuminated person decides whether they will submit in repentance to what they now know to be true, or reject it outright. Repeatedly rejecting the testimony of the Holy Spirit will, ultimately, result in God removing the ability to know what they heard is the truth, leaving them with no further opportunity or possibility of coming to repentance.
Ephesians 4:18-19 NIV
"They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity"
One actually has to be saved to understand the truth according to the word of God......false gospels neither save and or give one understanding.....works and law keeping as part of the process = false gospel with no power....!
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EleventhHour
Guest
Amen Bill.....God's gifts and calling are irrevocable....salvation is one such gift, so is the faith that saves!
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EleventhHour
Guest
This is not sitting right with me...... but it may take someone beyond my pay grade to respond.
When you encounter harsh words, people who mock you, laugh at you, issue condemnation, verbal attacks, as much as verbal may be construed on a message forum, maybe recall how the enemy, the tempter, applies slings and arrows against the Children of God so as to dissuade them from their purpose in Christ.
If the tempter spirit can get a Christian to speak their language, hate filled words, sarcasm, cutting pejoratives intended to hurt that Christian's feelings, etc..., they win a victory over that Christian who is suppose to be in peace, in Christ. It's like a game. If they can lead a Christian to fail in putting on Christ and being Christ like in their exchanges with people, they can then show that being a Christian isn't all it is cracked up to be.
Remember Jesus during his fast in the wilderness? The tempter was there trying to lead Jesus from his mission.
The Book of Matthew chapter 4:3 And the Tempter having come to him said, `If Son thou art of God -- speak that these stones may become loaves.'
Can you imagine? If Jesus had said to Himself, I'm so hungry, I think I'll do that. And did make those stones into bread, how pleased the tempter would have been.
Satan roams this world like a hungry lion seeking souls to devour.
What would lead us to think a website who's banner announces it is dedicated to Christ wouldn't gain the Tempter and his disciples attention?
Stay strong in the light my sister/brother. When God has your back, nothing can stand against you.
Don't follow where the darkness invites you to go. Don't be tempted to flee a Christian forum you enjoy , due to the harassment that comes your way.
If we can't stand against the enemy that comes at us through a keyboard, how will we fare in the world offline?
[hugs you]
(There's an ignore function on your profile. If you mouse over the name of someone you'll see a little drop down menu appear. There will be a button in the middle that says, "Ignore". If you depress that, nothing of the member you've chosen to ignore will appear to you anymore.
You will not know when someone is speaking to them in a thread, because that persons quoted post will not appear. Just as anything they write does not. But if you want to know to whom someone may be responding, just scroll down the page and you'll see a message at the bottom right of the thread page that says, "show ignored content". If you click on that message and then scroll back up the same page, you'll see the posts of anyone you have on your ignore list that have contributed to that thread.
Just an FYI.
)Sometimes, the love of Christ post after post doesn't make a difference. Sometimes we have to save ourselves by ignoring agents of the Tempter.
God loves us!
You have a right to participate on a forum without being insulted while you're there.God bless you .
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EleventhHour
Guest
Try this.
Read it slowly and thoughtfully.
1 John 5:6, 9-10 NIV
"6...it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
9 We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony (the testimony of the Holy Spirit) is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10 Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God (the testimony of the Holy Spirit) has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony (of the Holy Spirit) God has given about his Son."
See, the believer can trust in Christ and be saved only because the Holy Spirit showed him in his heart that the gospel really is true. That ability to know the gospel is really true is called 'faith'(the assurance that what you can't see really is true-Hebrews 11:1) . The ability to know the gospel really is true does not come from you. It's the gift of God. It's only because we have been given faith through the testimony of the Holy Spirit that we can then believe in Christ and trust in him for the forgiveness of sin. That's what makes salvation a gracious gift given to a person, not a payment owed for righteous work performed.
The person who knows the gospel is true through the testimony of the Holy Spirit but who then rejects what he now knows to be true will one day, if he persists in rejecting the testimony of the Spirit, lose the illumination of the Spirit's testimony and go back to not being able to know the gospel really is true, but this time without remedy. He is turned over to that hardening of heart and not allowed to come to repentance. He has sinned willfully in the face of irrefutable truth, not sinned willfully in ignorance and unbelief.
They are ignorant of the truth, not because they never knew the truth, but because they hardened themselves against it, and as a result have lost all sensitivity to it.
Hebrews also talks about rejecting the truth after being illuminated, and it's severe consequence, here:
Hebrews 6:4-5
"4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance."
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EleventhHour
Guest
You have the wrong understanding here.... these people were saved (shared in the Holy Spirit).... not illuminated.
Once saved then saved eternally.
AMEN.....flying to Sydney today from the Gold Coast...in the Qantas lounge enjoying a glass of Champaign......STILL saved eternally from the microsecond I asked Jesus to remember me in His kingdom
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EleventhHour
Guest
AMEN.....flying to Sydney today from the Gold Coast...in the Qantas lounge enjoying a glass of Champaign......STILL saved eternally from the microsecond I asked Jesus to remember me in His kingdom
French champagne I hope
Indeed so thankful to have no fear or anxiety about our status in Christ.
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EleventhHour
Guest
The scripture very clearly teaches otherwise.
The Holy Spirit does not leave a born again believer.
Your salvation is a loan not a gift.
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People who don't know this yet, because the Holy Spirit has not testified to them about it, sin willfully out of ignorance and can still receive mercy--like Paul did. But people who do know this, because the Holy Spirit has testified to them about, if they continue in their unrepentant state are sinning willfully in knowledge, not ignorance. That's a far different matter.
This is an important distinction in the matter of sinning, before and after salvation, that we must make. That's what me and another poster were talking about. Responsibility in regard to sin is based on how much you know and are therefore responsible for.
You're going off the topic of this thread:
Justification is a free gift given to us when we believe the illuminating testimony of the Holy Spirit that eternal life comes through the Son of God, not earned by performing righteous works of the law.
People who don't know this yet, because the Holy Spirit has not testified to them about it, sin willfully out of ignorance and can still receive mercy--like Paul did. But people who do know this, because the Holy Spirit has testified to them about, if they continue in their unrepentant state are sinning willfully in knowledge, not ignorance. That's a far different matter.
This is an important distinction in the matter of sinning, before and after salvation, that we must make. That's what me and another poster were talking about. Responsibility in regard to sin is based on how much you know and are therefore responsible for.
Don’t you ever accuse me of looking for an excuse to sin again.
That accusation is detestable to the core.
Good morning/evening all...
Gods promises are beautiful , read this reminder from our LORD Jesus Christ , and may your hearts be filled with joy...
Gods promises are beautiful , read this reminder from our LORD Jesus Christ , and may your hearts be filled with joy...