The Cambridge Declaration

[UnitedWithChrist]

Cambridge Declaration Heritage and Resources

April 20, 1996

Evangelical churches today are increasingly dominated by the spirit of this age rather than by the Spirit of Christ. As evangelicals, we call ourselves to repent of this sin and to recover the historic Christian faith.

In the course of history words change. In our day this has happened to the word "evangelical." In the past it served as a bond of unity between Christians from a wide diversity of church traditions. Historic evangelicalism was confessional. It embraced the essential truths of Christianity as those were defined by the great ecumenical councils of the church. In addition, evangelicals also shared a common heritage in the "solas" of the sixteenth century Protestant Reformation.

Today the light of the Reformation has been significantly dimmed. The consequence is that the word "evangelical" has become so inclusive as to have lost its meaning. We face the peril of losing the unity it has taken centuries to achieve. Because of this crisis and because of our love of Christ, his gospel and his church, we endeavor to assert anew our commitment to the central truths of the Reformation and of historic evangelicalism. These truths we affirm not because of their role in our traditions, but because we believe that they are central to the Bible.

Sola Scriptura: The Erosion of Authority
Scripture alone is the inerrant rule of the church's life, but the evangelical church today has separated Scripture from its authoritative function. In practice, the church is guided, far too often, by the culture. Therapeutic technique, marketing strategies, and the beat of the entertainment world often have far more to say about what the church wants, how it functions and what it offers, than does the Word of God. Pastors have neglected their rightful oversight of worship, including the doctrinal content of the music. As biblical authority has been abandoned in practice, as its truths have faded from Christian consciousness, and as its doctrines have lost their saliency, the church has been increasingly emptied of its integrity, moral authority and direction.

Rather than adapting Christian faith to satisfy the felt needs of consumers, we must proclaim the law as the only measure of true righteousness and the gospel as the only announcement of saving truth. Biblical truth is indispensable to the church's understanding, nurture and discipline.

Scripture must take us beyond our perceived needs to our real needs and liberate us from seeing ourselves through the seductive images, cliches, promises and priorities of mass culture. It is only in the light of God's truth that we understand ourselves aright and see God's provision for our need. The Bible, therefore, must be taught and preached in the church. Sermons must be expositions of the Bible and its teachings, not expressions of the preacher's opinions or the ideas of the age. We must settle for nothing less than what God has given.

The work of the Holy Spirit in personal experience cannot be disengaged from Scripture. The Spirit does not speak in ways that are independent of Scripture. Apart from Scripture we would never have known of God's grace in Christ. The biblical Word, rather than spiritual experience, is the test of truth.

Thesis One: Sola Scriptura
We reaffirm the inerrant Scripture to be the sole source of written divine revelation,which alone can bind the conscience. The Bible alone teaches all that is necessary for our salvation from sin and is the standard by which all Christian behavior must be measured.
We deny that any creed, council or individual may bind a Christian's conscience, that the Holy Spirit speaks independently of or contrary to what is set forth in the Bible, or that personal spiritual experience can ever be a vehicle of revelation.​

Solus Christus: The Erosion of Christ-Centered Faith
As evangelical faith becomes secularized, its interests have been blurred with those of the culture. The result is a loss of absolute values, permissive individualism, and a substitution of wholeness for holiness, recovery for repentance, intuition for truth, feeling for belief, chance for providence, and immediate gratification for enduring hope. Christ and his cross have moved from the center of our vision.

Thesis Two: Solus Christus
We reaffirm that our salvation is accomplished by the mediatorial work of the historical Christ alone. His sinless life and substitutionary atonement alone are sufficient for our justification and reconciliation to the Father.
We deny that the gospel is preached if Christ's substitutionary work is not declared and faith in Christ and his work is not solicited.​

Sola Gratia: The Erosion of The Gospel
Unwarranted confidence in human ability is a product of fallen human nature. This false confidence now fills the evangelical world; from the self-esteem gospel, to the health and wealth gospel, from those who have transformed the gospel into a product to be sold and sinners into consumers who want to buy, to others who treat Christian faith as being true simply because it works. This silences the doctrine of justification regardless of the official commitments of our churches. God's grace in Christ is not merely necessary but is the sole efficient cause of salvation. We confess that human beings are born spiritually dead and are incapable even of cooperating with regenerating grace.

Thesis Three: Sola Gratia
We reaffirm that in salvation we are rescued from God's wrath by his grace alone. It is the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit that brings us to Christ by releasing us from our bondage to sin and raising us from spiritual death to spiritual life.
We deny that salvation is in any sense a human work. Human methods, techniques or strategies by themselves cannot accomplish this transformation. Faith is not produced by our unregenerated human nature.​

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Sola Fide: The Erosion of The Chief Article
Justification is by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone. This is the article by which the church stands or falls. Today this article is often ignored, distorted or sometimes even denied by leaders, scholars and pastors who claim to be evangelical. Although fallen human nature has always recoiled from recognizing its need for Christ's imputed righteousness, modernity greatly fuels the fires of this discontent with the biblical Gospel. We have allowed this discontent to dictate the nature of our ministry and what it is we are preaching.

Many in the church growth movement believe that sociological understanding of those in the pew is as important to the success of the gospel as is the biblical truth which is proclaimed. As a result, theological convictions are frequently divorced from the work of the ministry. The marketing orientation in many churches takes this even further, erasing the distinction between the biblical Word and the world, robbing Christ's cross of its offense, and reducing Christian faith to the principles and methods which bring success to secular corporations.

While the theology of the cross may be believed, these movements are actually emptying it of its meaning. There is no gospel except that of Christ's substitution in our place whereby God imputed to him our sin and imputed to us his righteousness. Because he bore our judgment, we now walk in his grace as those who are forever pardoned, accepted and adopted as God's children. There is no basis for our acceptance before God except in Christ's saving work, not in our patriotism, churchly devotion or moral decency. The gospel declares what God has done for us in Christ. It is not about what we can do to reach him.

Thesis Four: Sola Fide
We reaffirm that justification is by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone. In justification Christ's righteousness is imputed to us as the only possible satisfaction of God's perfect justice.
We deny that justification rests on any merit to be found in us, or upon the grounds of an infusion of Christ's righteousness in us, or that an institution claiming to be a church that denies or condemns sola fide can be recognized as a legitimate church.​

Soli Deo Gloria: The Erosion of God-Centered Worship
Wherever in the church biblical authority has been lost, Christ has been displaced, the gospel has been distorted, or faith has been perverted, it has always been for one reason: our interests have displaced God's and we are doing his work in our way. The loss of God's centrality in the life of today's church is common and lamentable. It is this loss that allows us to transform worship into entertainment, gospel preaching into marketing, believing into technique, being good into feeling good about ourselves, and faithfulness into being successful. As a result, God, Christ and the Bible have come to mean too little to us and rest too inconsequentially upon us.

God does not exist to satisfy human ambitions, cravings, the appetite for consumption, or our own private spiritual interests. We must focus on God in our worship, rather than the satisfaction of our personal needs. God is sovereign in worship; we are not. Our concern must be for God's kingdom, not our own empires, popularity or success.

Thesis Five: Soli Deo Gloria
We reaffirm that because salvation is of God and has been accomplished by God, it is for God's glory and that we must glorify him always. We must live our entire lives before the face of God, under the authority of God and for his glory alone.
We deny that we can properly glorify God if our worship is confused with entertainment, if we neglect either Law or Gospel in our preaching, or if self-improvement, self-esteem or self-fulfillment are allowed to become alternatives to the gospel.​

A Call To Repentance & Reformation
The faithfulness of the evangelical church in the past contrasts sharply with its unfaithfulness in the present. Earlier in this century, evangelical churches sustained a remarkable missionary endeavor, and built many religious institutions to serve the cause of biblical truth and Christ's kingdom. That was a time when Christian behavior and expectations were markedly different from those in the culture. Today they often are not. The evangelical world today is losing its biblical fidelity, moral compass and missionary zeal.

We repent of our worldliness. We have been influenced by the "gospels" of our secular culture, which are no gospels. We have weakened the church by our own lack of serious repentance, our blindness to the sins in ourselves which we see so clearly in others, and our inexcusable failure to adequately tell others about God's saving work in Jesus Christ.

We also earnestly call back erring professing evangelicals who have deviated from God's Word in the matters discussed in this Declaration. This includes those who declare that there is hope of eternal life apart from explicit faith in Jesus Christ, who claim that those who reject Christ in this life will be annihilated rather than endure the just judgment of God through eternal suffering, or who claim that evangelicals and Roman Catholics are one in Jesus Christ even where the biblical doctrine of justification is not believed.

The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals asks all Christians to give consideration to implementing this Declaration in the church's worship, ministry, policies, life and evangelism.

For Christ's sake. Amen

 

[Melach]

great declaration wish all churches implement this. the worldly part is so true sometimes we cant even know if its church or rock concert

 

[John146]

Sola Fide: The Erosion of The Chief Article
Justification is by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone. This is the article by which the church stands or falls. Today this article is often ignored, distorted or sometimes even denied by leaders, scholars and pastors who claim to be evangelical. Although fallen human nature has always recoiled from recognizing its need for Christ's imputed righteousness, modernity greatly fuels the fires of this discontent with the biblical Gospel. We have allowed this discontent to dictate the nature of our ministry and what it is we are preaching.

Many in the church growth movement believe that sociological understanding of those in the pew is as important to the success of the gospel as is the biblical truth which is proclaimed. As a result, theological convictions are frequently divorced from the work of the ministry. The marketing orientation in many churches takes this even further, erasing the distinction between the biblical Word and the world, robbing Christ's cross of its offense, and reducing Christian faith to the principles and methods which bring success to secular corporations.

While the theology of the cross may be believed, these movements are actually emptying it of its meaning. There is no gospel except that of Christ's substitution in our place whereby God imputed to him our sin and imputed to us his righteousness. Because he bore our judgment, we now walk in his grace as those who are forever pardoned, accepted and adopted as God's children. There is no basis for our acceptance before God except in Christ's saving work, not in our patriotism, churchly devotion or moral decency. The gospel declares what God has done for us in Christ. It is not about what we can do to reach him.

Thesis Four: Sola Fide​

We reaffirm that justification is by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone. In justification Christ's righteousness is imputed to us as the only possible satisfaction of God's perfect justice.​

We deny that justification rests on any merit to be found in us, or upon the grounds of an infusion of Christ's righteousness in us, or that an institution claiming to be a church that denies or condemns sola fide can be recognized as a legitimate church.​

Soli Deo Gloria: The Erosion of God-Centered Worship
Wherever in the church biblical authority has been lost, Christ has been displaced, the gospel has been distorted, or faith has been perverted, it has always been for one reason: our interests have displaced God's and we are doing his work in our way. The loss of God's centrality in the life of today's church is common and lamentable. It is this loss that allows us to transform worship into entertainment, gospel preaching into marketing, believing into technique, being good into feeling good about ourselves, and faithfulness into being successful. As a result, God, Christ and the Bible have come to mean too little to us and rest too inconsequentially upon us.

God does not exist to satisfy human ambitions, cravings, the appetite for consumption, or our own private spiritual interests. We must focus on God in our worship, rather than the satisfaction of our personal needs. God is sovereign in worship; we are not. Our concern must be for God's kingdom, not our own empires, popularity or success.

Thesis Five: Soli Deo Gloria​

We reaffirm that because salvation is of God and has been accomplished by God, it is for God's glory and that we must glorify him always. We must live our entire lives before the face of God, under the authority of God and for his glory alone.​

We deny that we can properly glorify God if our worship is confused with entertainment, if we neglect either Law or Gospel in our preaching, or if self-improvement, self-esteem or self-fulfillment are allowed to become alternatives to the gospel.​

A Call To Repentance & Reformation
The faithfulness of the evangelical church in the past contrasts sharply with its unfaithfulness in the present. Earlier in this century, evangelical churches sustained a remarkable missionary endeavor, and built many religious institutions to serve the cause of biblical truth and Christ's kingdom. That was a time when Christian behavior and expectations were markedly different from those in the culture. Today they often are not. The evangelical world today is losing its biblical fidelity, moral compass and missionary zeal.

We repent of our worldliness. We have been influenced by the "gospels" of our secular culture, which are no gospels. We have weakened the church by our own lack of serious repentance, our blindness to the sins in ourselves which we see so clearly in others, and our inexcusable failure to adequately tell others about God's saving work in Jesus Christ.

We also earnestly call back erring professing evangelicals who have deviated from God's Word in the matters discussed in this Declaration. This includes those who declare that there is hope of eternal life apart from explicit faith in Jesus Christ, who claim that those who reject Christ in this life will be annihilated rather than endure the just judgment of God through eternal suffering, or who claim that evangelicals and Roman Catholics are one in Jesus Christ even where the biblical doctrine of justification is not believed.

The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals asks all Christians to give consideration to implementing this Declaration in the church's worship, ministry, policies, life and evangelism.

For Christ's sake. Amen

#eraofthenewversions 😀

 

[Nehemiah6]

Thesis One: Sola Scriptura
We reaffirm the inerrant Scripture to be the sole source of written divine revelation,which alone can bind the conscience. The Bible alone teaches all that is necessary for our salvation from sin and is the standard by which all Christian behavior must be measured.
We deny that any creed, council or individual may bind a Christian's conscience, that the Holy Spirit speaks independently of or contrary to what is set forth in the Bible, or that personal spiritual experience can ever be a vehicle of revelation.

Some necessary clarifications are missing:

1. We reaffirm the inerrant Scripture: the words *inspired* and *infallible* are missing.

2. The Bible alone...: This is insufficient today. What should have been said is this:
"The Bible alone, as found in the sixty six books of our Protestant Bibles, and based upon the traditional Hebrew and Greek texts, as found in the Reformation Bibles such as the King James and Geneva Bibles...

3. all that is necessary for our salvation from sin.. "and Hell" is missing.

4. and is the standard by which all Christian behavior must be measured...: The following from 2 Tim 3:16 should have been included: Because it is all-sufficient for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness...

 

[DB7]

Some necessary clarifications are missing:

1. We reaffirm the inerrant Scripture: the words *inspired* and *infallible* are missing.

2. The Bible alone...: This is insufficient today. What should have been said is this:
"The Bible alone, as found in the sixty six books of our Protestant Bibles, and based upon the traditional Hebrew and Greek texts, as found in the Reformation Bibles such as the King James and Geneva Bibles...

3. all that is necessary for our salvation from sin.. "and Hell" is missing.

4. and is the standard by which all Christian behavior must be measured...: The following from 2 Tim 3:16 should have been included: Because it is all-sufficient for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness...

Good points N6, ...it's just that point #2 might be a bit controversial. I'm surprised actually that you used the Geneva & KJV to make your point, in particular about the required 66 books, which both the KJV & Geneva included the apochrypha for a total of 80 books? The KJV only removed it in 1885 (after 274 yrs), and the Geneva has always had it? Your original statement was very good, but your examples contradicted it?
And equally controversial, is that you chose two Bibles that were derived from a very limited and late manuscript tradition. There was only a handful of available manuscripts at that time ie. 16th century, all dating no earlier than than, I believe, the 11th or 12th centuries. Whereas today, the number of manuscripts have increased by several thousands and date as early as the 2nd century.
I would consider most of the modern translation to be more accurate than either the KJV or Geneva. At least any that use either the Westcott-Hort, Nestle-Aland, or UBS latest editions of the Greek New Testament. And the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia or Biblia Hebraica Quinta for the OT.
But again, you brought up some good clarifying points, but personally, just bad examples for the specific bibles.

 

[posthuman]

Good points N6, ...it's just that point #2 might be a bit controversial. I'm surprised actually that you used the Geneva & KJV to make your point, in particular about the required 66 books, which both the KJV & Geneva included the apochrypha for a total of 80 books? The KJV only removed it in 1885 (after 274 yrs), and the Geneva has always had it? Your original statement was very good, but your examples contradicted it?

Geneva Bible of 1560 included it but it was removed by 1599, if what i'm reading is correct.

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxbridge/geneva-bible-and-sola-scriptura/

 

[DB7]

Geneva Bible of 1560 included it but it was removed by 1599, if what i'm reading is correct.

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxbridge/geneva-bible-and-sola-scriptura/

Yes, according to your source that is correct, my sources did not mention that, I may have to check further, thank you!
Either way, if i may, just for the fact that it did at one point, and it's late manuscript source, i still believe that the KJV & Geneva were not the best examples for N6 to use in order to prove his point.
Thanks posthuman for the insight!

 

[NayborBear]

I believe, and I believe even Jesus is with me on "false assumptins, that lead to delusion:" "that "where 2 or 3 are gathered in My Name, THERE, I will be with them."

The "delusion", being that Jesus in His "being there?" Is obligated in His acceptance OF, and therefore, the further condoning OF? WHATEVER, yea, and WHEREVER said "gathering", may choose to SAY, and/or DO, or GO!

Of course this has been going on for quite some time! Even before Jesus was born! By those proclaiming "Piece (for peace)!" "Piece (for peace)!" ALL THE WHILE? PEACE, is NOT in their hearts! CONQUERING? IS! PEACE? IS NOT!


Their "objective"and LIE, is THIS:
2 Thessalonians 2
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

What was the warning given unto gentiles?
Romans 11
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. (ARROGANCE!)
20 Well(?); because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear (humble & reverant & scared):
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

"His-Story" (hindsight being 20/20), as seems always to be the case. Meaning, hardly ever is "seen" AS it's unfolding "in yer face", shall bare this out to be true!

Many gentile "believers?" Have "already been CUT OFF!" And don't even realize it!

This is why it is so important in pressing on to God's "higher calling", then it is, in putting "ALL YER eggs", in the "I'M ETERNALLY SECURE" basket!

 

[presidente]

4. and is the standard by which all Christian behavior must be measured...: The following from 2 Tim 3:16 should have been included: Because it is all-sufficient for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness...

The passage does not say that. It says that the man of God might be fully equipped. It doesn't say the Bible is the only equipment. One might need 'equipment' to be a man of God before the scriptures can properly equip him. If scripture were all one needed, atheists with unused Bibles on their shelves would be fully equipped.

You can give a solder a rifle 'so that he might be fully equipped' but if he is naked and has no helmet or bullets, he is not fully equipped, even though you gave him the rifle because without it he would not be fully equipped.

Christians need not only the scriptures, but also things scripture writes about, like grace, the work of the Spirit, etc.

There is also the issue of spiritual gifts. Going to extremes with statements about the role of scripture that actually contradict the Biblical teaching on a number of issues, including spiritual gifts, is probably not going to solve the problem. I haven't seen the results in some time, but my understanding of Barna surveys is that they show evidence that charismatics tend to know their Bibles better than other evangelicals, and that Pentecostals and Assembly of God (a subset of Pentecostals but a group Barna separated out for some reason) ranked highest for actually believing traditional evangelical Biblical doctrine.

I do not agree with this statement from the revelation from the OP,

We reaffirm the inerrant Scripture to be the sole source of written divine revelation,which alone can bind the conscience.

Sure, this is stuff found in a lot of denominations that draw from traditional protestantism. But is the latter half of it Biblical. Is it the 'sole source of written divine revelation'? I would say that is unbiblical because the Bible makes reference to the book of Iddo the seer. Apparently, Iddo was recognized as a true seer. If he wrote one of his prophecies down that is not in the Bible, then this declaration would be untrue. If someone recorded the words of Agabus' earthquake prophecy, or any prophecy of the prophet Silas or his fellow prophet Judah prior to their showing up without a backstory in the commendation of the apostles in Acts 15, then this is false. Paul, relating commandments of the Lord, allowed and encouraged the sharing of revelation in church. Given how broadly the Bible uses the term 'revelation' we should not try to confine this term to written scripture.

And what is meant by 'alone can bind the conscience.' Do they mean 'alone may bind the conscience.' It is obvious from scripture, for example Romans 8 and I Corinthians 8 and 10, that one's conscience might be bound more restrictively than Christian freedom might allow. This is not sin either. But those who restricted can sin against their conscience by doing things others are at liberty to do.

I certainly believe I have met people whose consciences are bound by traditional Protestant statements of faith, church tradition, church practices, and church doctrinal statements.

 

[NayborBear]

Geneva Bible of 1560 included it but it was removed by 1599, if what i'm reading is correct.

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxbridge/geneva-bible-and-sola-scriptura/

I know we don't "seem" to agree on much, PH!

Giving credit where credit is due?

This link you provided?

Is, from my limited "absorbing" of it? (my definition of "absorbing", is much like "Mean Joe Green's" "absorbing" of the "entire offensive back field", of a united states football team. (so as not to be confused with soccer). "I take 'em all in!" "Then start eliminating everyone who doesn't have the ball!"

Is even better then "the Bullinger (aka Companion) Bible."

Albeit, Bullinger, was striving in doing with the King James, what these "reformers" were doing with the "Geneva."

Post Human!

As it "seems" to be affirming/confirming, to this dumb truck driver, that which God has been doing with and to me these past 4 decades!

 

[presidente]

I see the problem with the doctrinal fluffiness and lax morality of evangelicalism. For one thing, there are many preachers who, if we went by their actions, seem to think they can save people by having them repeat a prayer that mentions the name of Jesus without preaching Who Jesus is, that He died for their sins, forgiveness of sins, or the resurrection of Christ. It is strange indeed. The ritual of repeating a prayer is treated as the means of salvation.

This is some terminology I am a bit concerned with.

Pastors have neglected their rightful oversight of worship, including the doctrinal content of the music.

Using a verb form, Jesus told Peter to pastor his sheep, Paul implied that he pastored, and Peter and Paul both told the elders of the church to pastor the church/flock of God. The New Testament does not directly equate the 'pastors and teachers' with elders. I Peter 5 seems to imply that elders are pastors, but it could be that 'pastors and teachers' are a broader group which include elders. 'Pastors and teachers' shows up once in a list without explanation, and it is a gift. The apostles appointed elders, who were to function as overseers.

The idea of the pastors presiding over a liturgy/service (if that is the angle the declaration is going with rather than prostration) is not found in the New Testament. Paul gives instructions to the whole church regarding meetings where 'every one of you' hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. He did not give instructions to sit down and shut up and listen to 'the pastor'. He did give instructions regarding how speakers in tongues and interpreters are to speak. He instructed the church to let the prophets speak two or three and to let the other judge. He wrote that '...ye may all prophesy one by one....' He does not mention pastors or elders in this one lengthy passage that describes how decent and orderly edification in the world must occur.

I agree that the elders of the church, as overseers, should oversee the church. But if we have meetings as described here, and if 'psalm' here represents a wide type of lyrical content including hymns and spiritual songs, which could potentially even be generated on the spot, it would be difficult for a pastor to censor it before it is spoken and still obey the passage. The passage also instructs letting the prophets speak, and let the other judge. Speaking comes before judging (or weigh carefully. The 'judge' translation almost makes it seem normaltive that the prophecies might be false.) In the context of the discussion of appointing elders, Paul tells Titus about the teachings of certain men whose mouths must be stopped. He does not say to stop the mouths before they speak.

As far as the doctrinal content of the music goes, I've heard some rather 'light' content that upon reflection that I did not think was very deep spiritually, "Step, step, step into the river." Maybe it's okay allegorically, but the audience probably won't get the allegory that much. I enjoyed 'Deep and wide' with its hand motions when I was three or so, but I don't think it taught me anything at that time, so I have avoided singing that one with children.

What I do find is that a lot of the modern CCM songs take pieces from the Psalms and other scriptures and sing them to the Lord. I find some of them more powerful than some of the old classic hymns which are nice poetry with Biblical concepts, but not scripture themselves. I do like some of the old hymns, and I think it is a good idea to sing some of them as well. There have been a lot of 'old hymns' written in the same style as the others written a few hundred years ago that are not as popular now because of light or poor theological content.

 

[John146]

Good points N6, ...it's just that point #2 might be a bit controversial. I'm surprised actually that you used the Geneva & KJV to make your point, in particular about the required 66 books, which both the KJV & Geneva included the apochrypha for a total of 80 books? The KJV only removed it in 1885 (after 274 yrs), and the Geneva has always had it? Your original statement was very good, but your examples contradicted it?
And equally controversial, is that you chose two Bibles that were derived from a very limited and late manuscript tradition. There was only a handful of available manuscripts at that time ie. 16th century, all dating no earlier than than, I believe, the 11th or 12th centuries. Whereas today, the number of manuscripts have increased by several thousands and date as early as the 2nd century.
I would consider most of the modern translation to be more accurate than either the KJV or Geneva. At least any that use either the Westcott-Hort, Nestle-Aland, or UBS latest editions of the Greek New Testament. And the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia or Biblia Hebraica Quinta for the OT.
But again, you brought up some good clarifying points, but personally, just bad examples for the specific bibles.

Where are you receiving your information? Have you personally seen the manuscripts used by the KJV translators? Are you banking on what someone else has said?

Modern translations more accurate? Can you give some examples?

 

[Dino246]

Where are you receiving your information? Have you personally seen the manuscripts used by the KJV translators? Are you banking on what someone else has said?

Modern translations more accurate? Can you give some examples?

Do you need to make this thread AS WELL a battleground for your pet issue? Just drop it already.

 

[NayborBear]

I certainly believe I have met people whose consciences are bound by traditional Protestant statements of faith, church tradition, church practices, and church doctrinal statements.

.....which leads to the "slippery slope" of "Protestant legalism." (aka "Paulene Christians")
or
the refusal of the eating of things sacrificed to idols.

When taken to "extreme", means "It's a sin TO ME?" "It's a sin TO YOU!" Mindset/philosolhy/tradition/ foundational doctrines/principles.

What's humorous, is wherein you "certainly believe" you have met people like this?

I know I have! El-Presedente.

To the point wherein I "ran" from "churches of stone", after having been baptized some 3 er 4 years earlier. To never return, to regularly "assembling" again.

Ezekiel 13
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

 

[John146]

Do you need to make this thread AS WELL a battleground for your pet issue? Just drop it already.

Drop it already? No sir! Isn’t this thread concerning following, preaching and believing the Bible? Scripture alone? I was merely addressing the huge issue DB7 has with the KJV.

You fight your battles and I’ll defend mine.

 

[NayborBear]

23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

Where does one think "cessationism doctrines" came from?

 

[presidente]

.....which leads to the "slippery slope" of "Protestant legalism." (aka "Paulene Christians")
or
the refusal of the eating of things sacrificed to idols.

I wonder if you would have considered Paul, Barnabas, and the 12 to be legalists. They and the elders of the church in Jerusalem considered that the Spirit thought it good to tell Gentiles to abstain from meat offered to idols. Jesus corrected churches who tolerated those who promoted fornication and eating meat offered to idols.

If one followed Paul's instructions, one would abstain, too, if he were told that meat were offered to idols. But, if one's conscience is not offended, one may purchase food in the market or eat meat at feasts without asking if it has been offered to idols.

To the point wherein I "ran" from "churches of stone", after having been baptized some 3 er 4 years earlier. To never return, to regularly "assembling" again.

The Bible teaches believers to consider how we might provoke one another to love and to good works, not to forsake assembling, but to exhort one another. We do not have to do this in steeplehouses. The early church met in homes. Such fellowship is very important. I John tells us that if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

 

[NayborBear]

I wonder if you would have considered Paul, Barnabas, and the 12 to be legalists. They and the elders of the church in Jerusalem considered that the Spirit thought it good to tell Gentiles to abstain from meat offered to idols. Jesus corrected churches who tolerated those who promoted fornication and eating meat offered to idols.

If one followed Paul's instructions, one would abstain, too, if he were told that meat were offered to idols. But, if one's conscience is not offended, one may purchase food in the market or eat meat at feasts without asking if it has been offered to idols.



The Bible teaches believers to consider how we might provoke one another to love and to good works, not to forsake assembling, but to exhort one another. We do not have to do this in steeplehouses. The early church met in homes. Such fellowship is very important. I John tells us that if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

At the "time" when the Spirit "thought it good", to elicit such an unction, or decree, unto the Disciples and Apostles, unto the gentiles, and yea, even to the Jews to abstain from eating meat sacrificed unto idols?
God seen NO LAW as causing "man" to be "righteous" in His eyes! Save, the believing in Him, whom He sent. And Him, crucified. And Him, raised from the dead by His (God's) "Spirit." That "Him", being Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
No! I would not consider them "legalists", at all!
It must have been pretty hard, for the "faithful converted Jewish" Disciples, and Apostles in their coming up with "something" to give cause for "the gentiles" to be "physically seen"(outwardly), by their peers, as well as to the "Jewish converts" that they had "converted."
That, however, was 2,000+ years ago!
Molten "images", being able to be fashioned by mens hands, have changed "shapes" over the course of 2,000+ years since Jesus walked the earth.
Yet? They are STILL idols!
Are they not?
Granted! Harder in the "discerning."
Idols, just the same.


At that time? It would have made what Jesus just accomplished, just as guilty as the scribes and pharasees, and therefore to none effect.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I doubt the writers of this declaration would deny revelation in other ways besides the written word of God..

However, like myself, they would be skeptical of the claims of many. People claim all kinds of things. I don't believe anyone except for individuals who have a solid understanding of Scripture and are not known for making fantastic claims on a regular basis.

That leaves out any charismatic I've met.

Regarding Romans 14, those whose consciences are bound by teachings such as vegetarianism are labeled as the weaker brother. Their bound consciences are irrelevant. Yet, quite often they want to condemn others for their bound consciences, claiming that all should be like them in terms of preferences of diet and days.

I think we need to recognize that these statements are made in the context of Roman Catholicism vs. evangelical Christianity, as well. The RC church considers tradition of the Church to be binding as Scripture. So there is a particular context to these remarks. This is why they are referencing the Five Solas.

One thing I might disagree with....it seems like they are against more modern music styles, even with solid doctrine underpinnings. I wouldn't agree with them on that. However, my guess is they are coming at it from a bit of unrealized tradition on their own part.

I have been in some churches who only sing hymns, and it's not my thing personally. I like a mixture. I think the light show stuff is going a bit far though.