Is unconditional election biblical?

[PennEd]

Define sovereign since it’s not found in God’s word? God rules over His creation? Does God have other attributes other than “sovereignty?”

Here's some sovereignty for ya:
Matthew 10:29-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground APART from your Father’s will. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.


So God is completely sovereign over sparrows falling and how many hairs you have, but isn't when it comes to who are His Children!?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

No. I'm good answering anything here. I don't like labels. I'm a Christian. I'm good with that label!

I also do not believe in limited atonement. Or at least it isn't Biblical. You have to stretch a couple of passages to get there, and you also have to reject some pretty clear passages against limited atonement.

I also consider myself a premillennial dispensationlist that believes all the OT promises to Israel will come to fruition.

Plus, I believe Calvin, maybe not as bad as Luther, was a rabid anti semite.

Having said all that, I am in general agreement with the other tulip letters.

I wouldn’t consider dispensationalism as grounds for not being a Calvinist. There are several that are that. I use the word Calvinist so that ppl know where I stand and plus it gives them a bull’s eye to aim their darts at.

The reason why I asked if you wanted to PM me was to not hijack the thread. By the way, I am a Historic Premillennialist. So, not all Calvinists are amill. Some are even post-mill.

 

[PennEd]

I wouldn’t consider dispensationalism as grounds for not being a Calvinists. There are several that are that. I use the word Calvinist so that ppl know where I stand and plus it gives them a bull’s eye to aim their darts at.

The reason why I asked if you wanted to PM me was to not hijack the thread. By the way, I am a Historic Premillennialist. So, not all Calvinists are amill. Some are even post-mill.

Ahhh... Threads meander all over the place. Part of the allure. We don't live in a box. ALL issues touch one another anyway.

 

[John146]

Here's some sovereignty for ya:
Matthew 10:29-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground APART from your Father’s will. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.


So God is completely sovereign over sparrows falling and how many hairs you have, but isn't when it comes to who are His Children!?

Let’s go with the KJV. The context is God knowing what occurs, not that God caused the sparrow to fall, but He knows about it.

26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Here's some sovereignty for ya:
Matthew 10:29-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground APART from your Father’s will. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.


So God is completely sovereign over sparrows falling and how many hairs you have, but isn't when it comes to who are His Children!?

He does consider the NKJV to be God’s word. So, he won’t accept this.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Let’s go with the KJV. The context is God knowing what occurs, not that God caused the sparrow to fall, but He knows about it.

26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

That which I bolded reeks of deism.

 

[John146]

Here's some sovereignty for ya:
Matthew 10:29-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground APART from your Father’s will. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.


So God is completely sovereign over sparrows falling and how many hairs you have, but isn't when it comes to who are His Children!?

Just like God doesn’t cause the number of hairs on your head to be, but rather knows how many hairs are on your head.

 

[John146]

That which I bolded reeks of deism.

God certainly interacts with His creation, especially when His creation responds to His word.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

God certainly interacts with His creation, especially when His creation responds to His word.

What I meant is deism teaches an impersonal god created everything, set it into motion, then just sets back and watches it unfold.

Whenever there’s evil happening, ppl say God allowed it. I call shenanigans on that notion. What they’re saying is that evil act God allowed it happen. He could have stopped it, but He didn’t. He also didn’t decree it, He just allowed it to happen. It serves no purpose to Him, seeing He didn’t decree it. That makes God cruel for allowing evil to happen and it serving no purpose to Him.

When ppl take the approach He knows about it but doesn’t cause it, that’s deism.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

That which I bolded reeks of deism.

maybe to your finally tuned Calvinistic nose, but I am positive you know better than that actually

we have all seen enough of John146's posts to know he believes nothing of the sort

but of course, why would any true Calvinists ever miss an opportunity to cast doubt on another or falsely accuse them

bravo! you are so predictable

it seems you wish to believe that God directly kills the little birds

you don't account for sin in the world affecting creation even though the Bible states ALL creation groans in it's present state and since you do not believe in actual choice, your responses MUST twist what others say

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Just like God doesn’t cause the number of hairs on your head to be, but rather knows how many hairs are on your head.

right

only Calvinists have full heads of hair because God has made them perfect

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

19 But Joseph said to them, “Do not be afraid, for am I in God’s place? 20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.[Genesis 50]

Look at what Joseph said to his brothers. They meant what they did for evil. Reuben had to talk them out of killing him. Yet, this was all part of God’s decreed plan. God used their hatred of their brother Joseph to sell him into slavery. Later on it’s revealed why He did it. To protect them from starving to death in the famine.

this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.[Acts 2:23]

The most heinous crime ever committed God decreed it. God used these men’s wicked hearts, hearts that hated the Christ, to crucify our Lord.

Two evil acts that God decreed and didn’t just know it was going to happen. He knew they would happen because He decreed they’d happen.

 

[PennEd]

Let’s go with the KJV. The context is God knowing what occurs, not that God caused the sparrow to fall, but He knows about it.

26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

Even the King Jimmy doesn’t say “without Him knowing “ that’s conjecture on your part. I checked about a dozen translations that say something similar to “His Will”.

 

[PennEd]

right

only Calvinists have full heads of hair because God has made them perfect

Have you seen my head?
I got hairlike Stalin!

 

[7seasrekeyed]

19 But Joseph said to them, “Do not be afraid, for am I in God’s place? 20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.[Genesis 50]

Look at what Joseph said to his brothers. They meant what they did for evil. Reuben had to talk them out of killing him. Yet, this was all part of God’s decreed plan. God used their hatred of their brother Joseph to sell him into slavery. Later on it’s revealed why He did it. To protect them from starving to death in the famine.

this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.[Acts 2:23]

The most heinous crime ever committed God decreed it. God used these men’s wicked hearts, hearts that hated the Christ, to crucify our Lord.

Two evil acts that God decreed and didn’t just know it was going to happen. He knew they would happen because He decreed they’d happen.

absurd absurd claim for your interpretation of scripture

what God planned was salvation for mankind

God sent His prophets over and over to warn people about their sin

you would have us believe God chooses who is going to hell

perhaps the OT prophets had it wrong then and should have just declared in the streets that human firewood was being prepared to burn in hell to keep the flames stoked

you deny what scripture teaches from beginning to end and use it, yes use it rather than allow yourself to receive it and thereby change your outlook on what it teaches, and desire to shepherd people in false teachings that amount to a cult rather than the way to eternal life

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Have you seen my head?
I got hairlike Stalin!

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

He does consider the NKJV to be God’s word. So, he won’t accept this.

That should have read does NOT. My bad.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Even the King Jimmy doesn’t say “without Him knowing “ that’s conjecture on your part. I checked about a dozen translations that say something similar to “His Will”.

I am asking because I might have missed something but...

where does John state God does not will ?

I think some here are translating their own understanding of the will of God onto the pages of scripture

there is a difference between God making something happen and God allowing it because of the will of a person and the choices they make

sin has its own consequences

as far as the story of Joseph goes, does the Bible actually state that God caused the brothers to do what they did?

what we hear Joseph say, is that they meant what they did for evil, but God caused good to come out of it

BIG big difference between ordering people to do evil and turning the evil for good

what does this scripture state?:

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. Romans 8:28

causes all things to work together does not mean causes things to happen

God is above all else, and I do not mean nor do I refer to His attributes here, CREATOR

He never stops

He is not the divine oligarch or manipulator

it starts in Genesis. He creates.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

absurd absurd claim for your interpretation of scripture

what God planned was salvation for mankind

God sent His prophets over and over to warn people about their sin

you would have us believe God chooses who is going to hell

perhaps the OT prophets had it wrong then and should have just declared in the streets that human firewood was being prepared to burn in hell to keep the flames stoked

you deny what scripture teaches from beginning to end and use it, yes use it rather than allow yourself to receive it and thereby change your outlook on what it teaches, and desire to shepherd people in false teachings that amount to a cult rather than the way to eternal life

Look at the holocaust for instance. One of the most vile events that ever happened. If God did not decree it, but allowed it to happen, and it served no purpose, then God is cruel for allowing it to happen w/o stopping it.

 

[John146]

What I meant is deism teaches an impersonal god created everything, set it into motion, then just sets back and watches it unfold.

Whenever there’s evil happening, ppl say God allowed it. I call shenanigans on that notion. What they’re saying is that evil act God allowed it happen. He could have stopped it, but He didn’t. He also didn’t decree it, He just allowed it to happen. It serves no purpose to Him, seeing He didn’t decree it. That makes God cruel for allowing evil to happen and it serving no purpose to Him.

When ppl take the approach He knows about it but doesn’t cause it, that’s deism.

Are you saying God causes the sin and wickedness in the world?