Does the new covenant affirm or deny the OT?

[Blik]

We are told that under the new covenant much of the old covenant is outdated and of no use to us. The English translation uses the word obsolete for the old covenant. (Romans 8:10) By going back to the original Greek words and Hebrew thinking that describes the new covenant, they thought of something new in two ways, one was of something completely original and the other word we transcribe as new means something that is refreshed. The original wording of the new covenant description tells us that it is refreshing something old. Scripture tells us it makes the old of no use to us any longer.

The fact remains that something of the old testament can be ignored by us as not needed. The church uses that to get rid of the feasts, fleshly circumcision, diet restrictions, blood of animals, and some even use it to get rid of the law. It is often used as a reason not to listen to OT scripture. What do you think God means us to know about what the new covenant replaces?

My position is that God is Holy and His words, all of them, are Holy and nothing is cancelled that is Holy. Christ replaces the blood of animals used as a symbol of Christ, the Holy Spirit replaces the need to be reminded to let only clean things in our minds, we make a pledge to belong to the Lord by spirit now, not by cutting flesh. But those things naturally happened as a result of the new covenant, they were not things that God cancelled but happened as a result of things God added.

What are your thoughts and what do you base those thoughts on?

 

[Dino246]

We are told that under the new covenant much of the old covenant is outdated and of no use to us.

By whom are "we" told this?

 

[Ghoti2]

I can't think of any of the Ten Commandments that is outdated and of no use to us, and not a heck of many of the other 613 laws that we are supposed to ignore.

 

[DB7]

My understanding, blik, is that the Old Testament purpose, was fulfilled and completed in the New. Yes, Paul states clearly and didacticly that the services and rituals of the OT were meant to pass away after their purpose was served, and why that was so. So that, wisdom confirms this because we can all relate to the fact how rules & regiments do not expose the heart, only faith does. For even a charlatan can pray five times a day and offer sacrifices as prescribed, for love and faith are not necessarily required in these mechanical gestures.
But, righteousness is still mandatory, ...is eating pork unrighteous (Lev 11:7), of course not, is murder (Exo. 20:13), of course it is.
Thus, not all of the law has been abrogated necessarily. The OT lead us to Christ through countless typologies, allusions, shadows and ordinances, and ultimately Abraham was the father of faith. So where does the separation lie, in my mind, there is no absolute clear one, but definitely works and sacrifices towards atonement, for sure. But equally, I would be extremely deficient in my understanding of the Gospel of Christ without a thorough knowledge of what God implemented in the past.
I personally study the OT as much as I do the NT.

 

[Whispered]

We are told that under the new covenant much of the old covenant is outdated and of no use to us. The English translation uses the word obsolete for the old covenant. (Romans 8:10) By going back to the original Greek words and Hebrew thinking that describes the new covenant, they thought of something new in two ways, one was of something completely original and the other word we transcribe as new means something that is refreshed. The original wording of the new covenant description tells us that it is refreshing something old. Scripture tells us it makes the old of no use to us any longer.

The fact remains that something of the old testament can be ignored by us as not needed. The church uses that to get rid of the feasts, fleshly circumcision, diet restrictions, blood of animals, and some even use it to get rid of the law. It is often used as a reason not to listen to OT scripture. What do you think God means us to know about what the new covenant replaces?

My position is that God is Holy and His words, all of them, are Holy and nothing is cancelled that is Holy. Christ replaces the blood of animals used as a symbol of Christ, the Holy Spirit replaces the need to be reminded to let only clean things in our minds, we make a pledge to belong to the Lord by spirit now, not by cutting flesh. But those things naturally happened as a result of the new covenant, they were not things that God cancelled but happened as a result of things God added.

What are your thoughts and what do you base those thoughts on?

In short? No.
The New Testament contains references to parts in the Psalms, from the Prophets books, and of course the Law.
Jesus recalled many parables from the Old Testament in his teachings. And he carried out the Old Testament prophecies that were in reference to Him, Messiah. Such as when he rode into Damascus on the back of the ass on what today we call, Palm Sunday.

Recall the "Book of Proverbs". Proverbs is a rendering from the Greek, meaning, Parable.

 

[Whispered]

I can't think of any of the Ten Commandments that is outdated and of no use to us, and not a heck of many of the other 613 laws that we are supposed to ignore.

The sacrificial laws no longer apply due to Jesus being the final sacrifice for the sins of the world.

 

[IFOLLOWHIM]

The O. T. and the N. T. affirm one another!
The whole word of God inspired by the Holy Spirit is given to us to build up our faith,increase our widom,knowledge and understanding, and bring us into a more perfected relationship with God!

 

[Locoponydirtman]

This OP based on a false supposition.
A lack of understanding of what the old testament is. It is a foreshadowing of the Christ to come. Christ is the fulfillment and the substance of what was foreshadowed. We now have the substance which is greater than the foreshadowing.

 

[Ghoti2]

The sacrificial laws no longer apply due to Jesus being the final sacrifice for the sins of the world.

Is that part of the 10 C's?

 

[Grace911]

We are told that under the new covenant much of the old covenant is outdated and of no use to us. The English translation uses the word obsolete for the old covenant. (Romans 8:10) By going back to the original Greek words and Hebrew thinking that describes the new covenant, they thought of something new in two ways, one was of something completely original and the other word we transcribe as new means something that is refreshed. The original wording of the new covenant description tells us that it is refreshing something old. Scripture tells us it makes the old of no use to us any longer.

The fact remains that something of the old testament can be ignored by us as not needed. The church uses that to get rid of the feasts, fleshly circumcision, diet restrictions, blood of animals, and some even use it to get rid of the law. It is often used as a reason not to listen to OT scripture. What do you think God means us to know about what the new covenant replaces?

My position is that God is Holy and His words, all of them, are Holy and nothing is cancelled that is Holy. Christ replaces the blood of animals used as a symbol of Christ, the Holy Spirit replaces the need to be reminded to let only clean things in our minds, we make a pledge to belong to the Lord by spirit now, not by cutting flesh. But those things naturally happened as a result of the new covenant, they were not things that God cancelled but happened as a result of things God added.

What are your thoughts and what do you base those thoughts on?

The "Old" Covenant" I believe is when all 12 (or 13) tribes represented by the elders of the people accepted YHVH's proposal for marriage.
Exo 19:7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

After King Solomon, 1Ki_11:43 And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.

The Kingdom split. 1Ki_12:20 And it came to pass, when all Israel heard that Jeroboam was come again, that they sent and called him unto the congregation, and made him king over all Israel: there was none that followed the house of David, but the tribe of Judah only.

The year was around 930 BC. The House of Israel, under Jeroboam and subsequent kings was led into sins of adultery, choosing idols to serve. God warned many times, until He finally divorced the House of Israel. The House of Israel was taken into captivity around 721/722 BC by Assyria. There they were absorbed and scattered throughout the whole world. Forgetting who was their LORD and taking upon themselves the pagan traditions that the LORD despises. But even so, YHVH said He would remarry them, but one major problem, His own law (Deuteronomy 24:1-4) forbid the remarriage of the divorced wife who remarried (served other gods that are not gods).

Jeremiah did not comprehend how YHVY could take her back again. Jer 3:1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.

The allegory of Hosea is about the adulterous wife, who became YHVH's "Not my people" and then later once again became "My people".

The House of Israel became "Gentiles" and not my people. However, Saul who became known as Paul understood the mystery. He became the apostle for the Gentiles.

Released from the Law of Deuteronomy 24:1-4
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

And what about the House of Judah? They are annulled from the Old Covenant and now free to marry Jesus (Yeshua - Yah's salvation) - the NEW COVENANT. Made with the sacrifice of the blood of Jesus (God with us-Immanuel). No longer necessary for the sacrificial animals who were substitutes to temporarily cover their sins, and no need for a physical Third Temple located in Jerusaelm, for we the Christians are the temple of God (YHVY).

I believe many "Gentiles" have freely accepted the death and resurrection of Christ in faith, but have not yet fully comprehended the full reality of what they have accepted. It is a marriage proposal, and we are betrothed until the Bridegroom returns for His bride. The gospel, the good news is Jesus came to restore the divided kingdom, the House of Israel and House of Judah back into ONE NATION, UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE AND LIBERTY FOR ALL (WHO ACCEPT JESUS AS THEIR LORD AND SAVIOUR, in essence THEIR HUSBAND.)

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Mat_2:6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
Rev_2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Rev_19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

[Whispered]

Is that part of the 10 C's?

The ten commandments are part of the Mitzvot, which is Hebrew for, Commandment. So yes, sacrificial laws are in the Mitzvot. There are 613 Mitzvot in total.
And no, references to the animal sacrifice is not in the Decalogue themselves.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-613-mitzvot-commandments

Which Laws/Regulations Are Superceded/Done Away? Which Remain? What About the 613 Mitzvot?

"...And the Sabbath?
Now some have claimed that since the Sabbath command is not listed after Jesus died, that it is not in effect. The problem with this is that it was listed at least twice as a command as well as many times it was shown to be observed by early New Testament Christians.
Here are two times after Jesus died that the Sabbath command is listed:

56 And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment (Luke 23:56, NKJV).
3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, "So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'" And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work." And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest." It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience...9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience (Hebrews 4:3-6,9-11, NIV).​

This clearly shows that the command to keep the seventh day Sabbath is in the New Testament. It also shows that only those who will not observe it because of their disobedience argue otherwise. And that is why Paul observed it. Even Origen understood some of what Paul wrote above as he wrote:

But what is the feast of the Sabbath except that which the apostle speaks, "There remaineth therefore a Sabbatism," that is, the observance of the Sabbath, by the people of God...let us see how the Sabbath ought to be observed by a Christian. On the Sabbath-day all worldly labors ought to be abstained from...give yourselves up to spiritual exercises, repairing to church, attending to sacred reading and instruction...this is the observance of the Christian Sabbath (Translated from Origen's Opera 2, Paris, 1733, Andrews J.N. in History of the Sabbath, 3rd edition, 1887. Reprint Teach Services, Brushton (NY), 1998, pp. 324-325).​

Acts 13:42-44 shows what Paul did:

...the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.​

Also Acts 18:4 states:

4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.​

Hence the New Testament is clear that Paul kept the Sabbath, regularly preached on the Sabbath, and that he wrote that there remains "a Sabbath-rest for the people of God."
Hopefully, that includes you. (For more information, please read the article The Sabbath in the Early Church and Abroad.) Perhaps it should also be listed here that translations of early writings have falsely been used to 'do away with the Sabbath--for details, check out Another Look at the Didache, Ignatius, and the Sabbath. "

 

[Ghoti2]

The ten commandments are part of the Mitzvot, which is Hebrew for, Commandment. So yes, sacrificial laws are in the Mitzvot. There are 613 Mitzvot in total.
And no, references to the animal sacrifice is not in the Decalogue themselves.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-613-mitzvot-commandments

So, without the Hebrew lesson, the answer is "No"?

 

[DB7]

So, without the Hebrew lesson, the answer is "No"?

Ghoti2, are you not aware of the ten commandments (decalogue)?
The answer is no, the animal sacrifices, rituals, holidays*, cleansing and ceremonial laws are not part of the 10 C.
*only The Sabbath, as far as holidays go, is part of the 10c

I'll try to cite them here by memory (i only got 7/10) (not in order)...

-Don't kill - Observe the Sabbath
- No Adultery - No Idolatry
- No false testimony - Have no other gods before God
- No Coveting - Don't take God's name in vain
- No theft - Honour father & mother

 

[Ghoti2]

Ghoti2, are you not aware of the ten commandments (decalogue)?
The answer is no, the animal sacrifices, rituals, holidays*, cleansing and ceremonial laws are not part of the 10 C.
*only The Sabbath, as far as holidays go, is part of the 10c

I'll try to cite them here by memory (i only got 7/10) (not in order)...

Don't kill Observe the Sabbath
No Adultery No Idolatry
No false testimony Have no other gods before God
No Coveting Don't take God's name in vain
No theft Honour father & mother

I take it you didn't even read my original post. (#3)

 

[DB7]

I take it you didn't even read my original post. (#3)

Yes, you're right, your question was rhetorical, sorry, my incompetence.
...but, for the sake of argument, I would say that out of the 10, which you mentioned, the Sabbath is outdated, just for the record, at least in my opinion, and I believe to be the sentiments of Paul (Col 2:16).

 

[Whispered]

Yes, you're right, your question was rhetorical, sorry, my incompetence.
...but, for the sake of argument, I would say that out of the 10, which you mentioned, the Sabbath is outdated, just for the record.

Why do you think the Sabbath is outdated?

 

[DB7]

Why do you think the Sabbath is outdated?

Hi Whispered, that's fundamental Christian belief no, no works or observance of days & rituals?

Colossians 2:16-17
2:16. Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

 

[Ghoti2]

Yes, you're right, your question was rhetorical, sorry, my incompetence.
...but, for the sake of argument, I would say that out of the 10, which you mentioned, the Sabbath is outdated, just for the record, at least in my opinion, and I believe to be the sentiments of Paul (Col 2:16).

Uh.... The "Sabbath" doesn't mean a Saturday.

 

[Whispered]

Hi Whispered, that's fundamental Christian belief no, no works or observance of days & rituals?

Colossians 2:16-17
2:16. Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

If the Sabbath no longer applied, why did the Apostles after Jesus departed earth continue to honor the Sabbath?
Jesus told us the Sabbath was made for us, not we for the Sabbath.
The Book of Mark chapter 2: 27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 so that the Son of man is lord even of the sabbath.

Why would we think Sabbath is no longer valid and yet go to church on Sunday, which is making that day the Sabbath day, even though it is on the wrong day.

The Book of Matthew chapter 19:16 And behold, one came to him and said, [i]Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, [j]Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, [k]Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honor thy father and thy mother; and, [l]Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.” The Book of Matthew Chapter 5:17-20

 

[Ghoti2]

BTW, for those of you who may have trouble remembering the 10 Commandments, and their order, here is an easy way.... All you have to do is rhyme a little and know a few common phrases:


ONE - GOD is ONE, there is NO OTHER. “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” (Exodus 20:3)

TWO - TABOO. What is taboo? Idols. Images. False gods. “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.” (Exodus 20:4)

THREE - VANITY. From “vain,” i.e., “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.” (Exodus 20:7)

FOUR – CHURCH DOOR. It’s what you should enter through every Sunday. “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.” (Exodus 20:8)

FIVE - ALIVE. - Only one commandment out of the ten has a promise connected to it. The Fifth Commandment promises “long life” to those who obey it. So, to stay alive longer, “Honor thy father and thy mother.” (Exodus 20:12)

SIX-FEET UNDER. Don’t put anybody six feet under, or in other words, “Thou shalt not kill.” (Exodus 20:13)

SEVEN-YEAR-ITCH. The old movie by that title illustrated a statistical fact; that after seven years of marriage many develop a wandering eye and are tempted to play musical beds. “Thou shalt not commit adultery.” (Exodus 20:14)

EIGHT - GO STRAIGHT! Picture yourself watching an old black-and-white Humphrey Bogart movie. He’s the convict about to be released from prison, standing before the wardens desk. The warden says, “Here are your release papers. Now, don’t get in any more trouble. No stealing. From now on, go straight.” Hence, Eight - Go Straight. “Thou shalt not steal.” (Exodus 20:15)

NINE - MALIGN. What does it mean to malign someone? It means to falsely accuse them, to slander them, to do harm to their name, character or reputation. “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.” (Exodus 20:16)

TEN - A PERFECT TEN! We often grade things on a scale of one to ten. One being the least, and ten being the very best. If a car is a 10 it is an amazing car. If a man or a woman is said to be a 10, they are a real knockout. We like and admire a 10. But be careful, because what you admire, you might begin to lust after.
“Thou shalt not covet.” (Exodus 20:17)