Can We Possess Salvation, For All Eternity, Without a Glorified Body?
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First off, nobody has gone or is going to heaven. At least not until after the millennial reign. After that the whole universe cannot contain us, just like it cannot contain God. Our Lord said no man has gone to heaven: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven” (John 3:13).
Those that say they did after the cross, let's look: Act 2:29;34,35 "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool." Looks like David hasn't.
Next, I point you to the faith chapter of Hebrews 11. It tells us of how the patriarchs of old have not ascended to heaven. “And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.” (Hebrews 11:39,40).
No, Heaven (the Kingdom of) is coming to earth when Christ comes back (see Rev. 11:5).
Now for glorified bodies: Everyone says that we will have glorified bodies, after our resurrection. I don't agree, I think we will be spirit. Though we will have a countenance or looks. And they will be radiant or bright (see Daniel 12:3).
Scripture says “God is a spirit.” John 4:24 “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
Scripture also says we are going to be just like God and Jesus. I included Jesus for He is the image of the Father. 1 John 3:2 “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.”
Everything made in our universe was made by the unseen (spirits). Scripture speaks of the invisible spirit realm. Read Hebrews 11:3; 1 Timothy 1:17. Angels can make them selves visible also. Read 2 Kings 6:17; Numbers 22:31-34.
Of course, Christ ascended and came back in a physical body. He even had the wounds from the cross. I believe this was for recognition purposes, so His disciples would recognize Him. Spirits can walk through walls and doors. God does not need a body. Read John 20:19, 20; Luke 24:36-40. Jesus had a tendency to appear from nothing startling the disciples.
He also generated physical bodies for Himself and two angels (cherubim?) in the Plains of Mamre to talk to Abraham. He is God, He can do anything he wants. They also ate and drank. Jesus suggested we will do the same in the Kingdom. Read Genesis 18:1-8; Luke 22:30; Matthew 26:29. Although God can partake of food and drink, scripture suggests He does not need to. Read Psalms 50:7-13. It seems we can and will produce a body for certain functions in the kingdom, but it does not appear we will be depended on such.
Stop and think about it. If our life force depended on a physical body, would it not be possible to blow up that body with explosives? How would we travel through the universe having to drag along a body? Would it require oxygen and water?
Those that say they did after the cross, let's look: Act 2:29;34,35 "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool." Looks like David hasn't.
Next, I point you to the faith chapter of Hebrews 11. It tells us of how the patriarchs of old have not ascended to heaven. “And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.” (Hebrews 11:39,40).
No, Heaven (the Kingdom of) is coming to earth when Christ comes back (see Rev. 11:5).
Now for glorified bodies: Everyone says that we will have glorified bodies, after our resurrection. I don't agree, I think we will be spirit. Though we will have a countenance or looks. And they will be radiant or bright (see Daniel 12:3).
Scripture says “God is a spirit.” John 4:24 “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
Scripture also says we are going to be just like God and Jesus. I included Jesus for He is the image of the Father. 1 John 3:2 “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.”
Everything made in our universe was made by the unseen (spirits). Scripture speaks of the invisible spirit realm. Read Hebrews 11:3; 1 Timothy 1:17. Angels can make them selves visible also. Read 2 Kings 6:17; Numbers 22:31-34.
Of course, Christ ascended and came back in a physical body. He even had the wounds from the cross. I believe this was for recognition purposes, so His disciples would recognize Him. Spirits can walk through walls and doors. God does not need a body. Read John 20:19, 20; Luke 24:36-40. Jesus had a tendency to appear from nothing startling the disciples.
He also generated physical bodies for Himself and two angels (cherubim?) in the Plains of Mamre to talk to Abraham. He is God, He can do anything he wants. They also ate and drank. Jesus suggested we will do the same in the Kingdom. Read Genesis 18:1-8; Luke 22:30; Matthew 26:29. Although God can partake of food and drink, scripture suggests He does not need to. Read Psalms 50:7-13. It seems we can and will produce a body for certain functions in the kingdom, but it does not appear we will be depended on such.
Stop and think about it. If our life force depended on a physical body, would it not be possible to blow up that body with explosives? How would we travel through the universe having to drag along a body? Would it require oxygen and water?
Very peculiar position. Those who are saved first have this treasure in earthen vessels but we are sealed unto the day of redemption. We are in Christ and will be redeemed into the very presence of God when we leave this earthen body behind.
Our glorified body awaits we must run the race with patience. If we were glorified the moment we became saved what would there be to hope for?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Our glorified body awaits we must run the race with patience. If we were glorified the moment we became saved what would there be to hope for?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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He saved us, already, in the past:
Titus 3
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
We are being saved.
II Corinthians 2:15
15 For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing,
(ESV, emphasis mine)
We shall be saved.
Romans 5
9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Titus 3
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
We are being saved.
II Corinthians 2:15
15 For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing,
(ESV, emphasis mine)
We shall be saved.
Romans 5
9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
I was very hungry, so i asked my wife for food and she told me..."It is cooked." "So give me the food", i said. "It is still being cooked and shall be cooked." she replied.
This type of conversations could be the cause of divorce and separation. Be patient and endure to the end until it's cooked
Peace!!!
This type of conversations could be the cause of divorce and separation. Be patient and endure to the end until it's cooked
Peace!!!
Well at least one good thing came from this thread for me. My "when saved" status being daily was summed up by you...thanks.
@Op the glorified body is the proof. In my view, without the proof you cannot have any pudding (leastways not that can be consumed).
The only answer that I could put forward is that it cannot be known "fully" until such time. Each of us must work out his/her own salvation.
Just a strange question. If I am convinced I will be married someday, could I realistically state that I am already married (just not presently)...purporting that since the Lord is outside of time I can somehow maintain his position that it is so? I'll confess that I have used this logic toward lusting and how I am being unfaithful to my wife...and yet I am not currently married. Nor do I "really" know (as it has not occurred) that it will be so. I believe so though and most things regarding that element of my flesh have been centered around that eventuality. It only goes so far during moments of doubt though, and it brings up the clash of "faith vs sight".
Human beings are bound within the construct of time. We can presume outside of it, but we can't fully "seed" that knowledge with complete awareness. At least not in my own experience at this "time".
@Op the glorified body is the proof. In my view, without the proof you cannot have any pudding (leastways not that can be consumed).
The only answer that I could put forward is that it cannot be known "fully" until such time. Each of us must work out his/her own salvation.
Just a strange question. If I am convinced I will be married someday, could I realistically state that I am already married (just not presently)...purporting that since the Lord is outside of time I can somehow maintain his position that it is so? I'll confess that I have used this logic toward lusting and how I am being unfaithful to my wife...and yet I am not currently married. Nor do I "really" know (as it has not occurred) that it will be so. I believe so though and most things regarding that element of my flesh have been centered around that eventuality. It only goes so far during moments of doubt though, and it brings up the clash of "faith vs sight".
Human beings are bound within the construct of time. We can presume outside of it, but we can't fully "seed" that knowledge with complete awareness. At least not in my own experience at this "time".
Well Mii; are we really not transcending time, like our Lord does, when we call ourselves saved? I say we are. But until we are made immortal and glorified actual salvation is still future, right? This is where OSAS can let us down. If we are not fixed on the future. We could possibly wander from the flock.
We in David's Fixed Heart Club believe we have fixed our hearts and call ourselves saved already. Why? Because we made a decision not to allow ourselves a choice in our futures. We have already decided our future choices, therefore we have no choice tomorrow. Get it? No matter how I am feeling, about anything, I am still serving God. Tomorrow, I may get depressed and doubt my calling but I still won't give myself the luxury of a new decision.
We in David's Fixed Heart Club believe we have fixed our hearts and call ourselves saved already. Why? Because we made a decision not to allow ourselves a choice in our futures. We have already decided our future choices, therefore we have no choice tomorrow. Get it? No matter how I am feeling, about anything, I am still serving God. Tomorrow, I may get depressed and doubt my calling but I still won't give myself the luxury of a new decision.
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We receive an earnest, or 'downpayment' of the Spirit when we believe. Romans 8 also mentions the Spirit of Him Who raised up Jesus from the dead quickening our mortal bodies.
I don't really see any 'outside of time' references in the Bible. We get to partake of salvation and its benefits in this age. But if you partake of some of the benefits of marriage before you actually get married, you could sin.
I don't really see any 'outside of time' references in the Bible. We get to partake of salvation and its benefits in this age. But if you partake of some of the benefits of marriage before you actually get married, you could sin.
Yes as our living eternal hope we have the power in us to believe but it is simply not of us. .
2 Corinthians 4:7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
The living hope is our confidence to the end.
Philippians 1:6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
2 Corinthians 4:7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
The living hope is our confidence to the end.
Philippians 1:6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: