Is God A Moral Monster?

[tasha66]

Thankyou for your support. May God bless you.......and you Angela......mind you sometimes I am "infantile" and "dim" but hopefully there is alot more to me!

Yeh no worries...I just hate people being bullied anywhere - in person or online.
I'm actually quite surprised that the moderators here don't delete posts that contain abusive words - then again, they might be deleteing everybody's posts, ha ha!
I'd report him/her myself.

 

[PS]

Dibby and company have you stopped to consider that in the New Testament God does the exact same things, and even on a larger scale? Read the book of Revelation.

If you cannot stomach the Torah, the New Testament is far too much for you. Not only does the New Testament reveal the horrors of the book of Revelation for the lost people, but we have other consequences to deal with:


Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Matt 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.s

2Th 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

The New Testament is not any different, you cannot turn it into some all-loving daddy in heaven who does not judge sin, a character who is not Holy, who does not require holiness, who does not rule, to men in these easy times we are living in its tough to admit truth. But I have found in my life that those who are self-deceived, are the hardest to persuade. Those who do wrong and say "I know what im doing is wrong" and do it anyway are more likely to repent, the door is left open to repentance because they admit what they are doing is wrong, as Jesus says in Revelation: "I have given them space to repent" meaning time to repent.

We are not God for crying out loud. If you follow that line of thinking, you will have Christians blowing people up. Stop that sort of talk immediately.

 

[posthuman]

hooray! we should all study Genesis 3
how do you study? this is how i study: i ask all the obvious questions i can think of about what i am reading, and try to figure out the answers to them.

why did God ask Adam where he was?
did God not know? of course He did. so why ask a question that you already know the answer to?
what's God doing by that? what's taking place?
God asks four questions - are there any He doesn't already know the answer to?
what kind of setting do people only ask questions that they already know the answer to?

no bite @Whispered ?

i'll help: in what setting do people only ask questions they already know the answer to? what is taking place?
court.
God has come down and is holding court, to judge what has taken place. Adam & the Woman are co-defendants, giving their testimony - in which both confess and Adam - a type of Christ ((Romans 5)) - gives a defense for his wife. who is this taking place before? who is watching? who else is there, now? angels & animals. what position does this make Satan in the setting? prosecutor. does the prosecutor ask questions he doesn't know the answers to?
does Satan know the answer to the question he asks the Woman?

there are two trees in the midst of the garden - a tree of life and a tree of death.
Satan persuades the Woman, calling God a liar, saying the tree of death is not a tree of death but a tree of wisdom & knowledge, a tree of opening the eyes, a tree which makes one like God.
who is God? Life.
is Satan lying?

what is Satan implying? he's 'the accuser' - what is his accusation? who is is his accusation against? who is he accusing before - who does he want to see and hear his accusations?
what is he trying to accomplish? why? what's his goal here? why is he doing this - what does he hope to gain? what does he expect to happen? why? those who are witnessing this - the angels, and every other living soul God created on the earth: what does Satan want them to see? what does Satan want to convince them of, to prove to them? why?

is Satan trying to kill the Woman? with what death? why? who will Satan blame?
what is the case Satan - more crafty than any other creature - is trying to make?

the answers are all there in Genesis 3. study?

 

[posthuman]

We are not God for crying out loud. If you follow that line of thinking, you will have Christians blowing people up. Stop that sort of talk immediately.

follow what line of thinking?
that the Bible is true, that vengeance belongs to the Lord, and that He will execute it?

 

[tasha66]

*sigh*

 

[posthuman]

*sigh*

why do you sigh?

read TooFastTurtle's post. did he actually say anything to encourage anyone to go out and blow anyone up? is there anything in his post that could be construed as such?

he gave scripture showing that Christ will indeed come and judge the world.
PS says 'stop that kind of talk immediately'

do you think PS is being bullied?
PS believes the God of the OT is a Satanic counterfeit.
do you think it is wrong for people who disagree with that to challenge him on it, to bring arguments to persuade him?

or is it about me?
do you think it is wrong to ask questions?
whispered doesn't believe that 'the lie' of Satan is the same lie at Meribah and in the desert when he tested Christ. is it wrong for me to lead her through study of the relevant texts in order to provide the reasons that i said it is? it will take some time, and i'm trying to do it in the way that will be most beneficial for her - guiding her to figure it out on her own, by presenting relevant questions naturally arising from the text. she won't listen to me if i just make statements. she may listen to herself if she's faced with questions and doesn't ignore them, but attempts to come up with answers to. does that make you sigh?
should i rather write a 10,000 word essay explaining these things, that no one will read?

 

[tasha66]

As I stated on another post, you can't change somebody's mind unless they want to change it themselves.
An alcoholic won't change unless they admit to being an alcoholic - unless they WANT to listen and change.
A drug user won't change unless they WANT to. They won't listen to anything you say unless they WANT to.
And I am as much entitled to my opinion on any of these threads as you are.
And yes, some of them are VERY much bullying & threatening. And I for one - don't know about you - do not tolerate any kind of bullying. I'm surprised the moderators allow such abuse, though I gather they are underworked and are volunteers.
Threatening and constantly cajoling, and telling people 'to stop posting', as one person did (can't remember who) is not going to endear you to people.
There is a way you can teach people without getting their back up.
But please feel free to keep posting - it's interesting reading the different posts here, as I am a newbie Christian and am still learning!

 

[PS]

follow what line of thinking?
that the Bible is true, that vengeance belongs to the Lord, and that He will execute it?

The LORD for goodness sake! Are you God?

 

[posthuman]

As I stated on another post, you can't change somebody's mind unless they want to change it themselves.

This is exactly why I'm asking her all the obvious and relevant questions about Genesis 3 instead of just writing an essay and expecting her to believe it. That she should arrive at the truth herself, if she's willing to journey toward it. I figure, if she really has studied Genesis 3, these are all questions she's already considered and has answers for. If she isn't able to answer, then she's not done studying. In either case it should help her.

 

[PS]

why do you sigh?

read TooFastTurtle's post. did he actually say anything to encourage anyone to go out and blow anyone up? is there anything in his post that could be construed as such?

he gave scripture showing that Christ will indeed come and judge the world.
PS says 'stop that kind of talk immediately'

do you think PS is being bullied?
PS believes the God of the OT is a Satanic counterfeit.
do you think it is wrong for people who disagree with that to challenge him on it, to bring arguments to persuade him?

or is it about me?
do you think it is wrong to ask questions?
whispered doesn't believe that 'the lie' of Satan is the same lie at Meribah and in the desert when he tested Christ. is it wrong for me to lead her through study of the relevant texts in order to provide the reasons that i said it is? it will take some time, and i'm trying to do it in the way that will be most beneficial for her - guiding her to figure it out on her own, by presenting relevant questions naturally arising from the text. she won't listen to me if i just make statements. she may listen to herself if she's faced with questions and doesn't ignore them, but attempts to come up with answers to. does that make you sigh?
should i rather write a 10,000 word essay explaining these things, that no one will read?

In the last paragraph TFT said The New Testament is no different from the Old.

That is wrong. There is a big difference. In the Old Testament we have a human tyrant committing genocide, and in the New Testament we have the Creator sitting in judgement.

 

[posthuman]

The LORD for goodness sake! Are you God?

Did turtle say he was personally going to go around executing vengeance on people who sin against God or did he quote scripture that says the LORD God Jesus Christ will?

seems to me he was trying to show whoever doesn't think that God inthe OT is the same God of the NT, that Jesus Christ Himself will do every bit as much destroying of the wicked in the judgment to come as He Himself also did in the past days when He led Israel.
So i don't understand your reaction.

 

[posthuman]

In the last paragraph TFT said The New Testament is no different from the Old.

That is wrong. There is a big difference. In the Old Testament we have a human tyrant committing genocide, and in the New Testament we have the Creator sitting in judgement.

A human tyrant? Who is this human tyrant?

In the OT we have YHWH Lord of Hosts the I AM, God Almighty executing His righteous judgment of sin and saving His people.
We have exactly the same thing prophesied in the NT by Christ, the fullness YHWH bodily revealed.

Is YHWH an human tyrant? Is Jesus?

 

[PS]

Did turtle say he was personally going to go around executing vengeance on people who sin against God or did he quote scripture that says the LORD God Jesus Christ will?

seems to me he was trying to show whoever doesn't think that God inthe OT is the same God of the NT, that Jesus Christ Himself will do every bit as much destroying of the wicked in the judgment to come as He Himself also did in the past days when He led Israel.
So i don't understand your reaction.

Those who follow the example set by Moses in the Old Testament, will be doing the same as is already happening in the Middle East. In fact it already happens.

And by saying the Old Testament is no different from the New, then Christians might think they are entitled to do the same, despite the teaching from Jesus to the contrary.

 

[PS]

A human tyrant? Who is this human tyrant?

In the OT we have YHWH Lord of Hosts the I AM, God Almighty executing His righteous judgment of sin and saving His people.
We have exactly the same thing prophesied in the NT by Christ, the fullness YHWH bodily revealed.

Is YHWH an human tyrant? Is Jesus?

Who was it committing genocide?

 

[TooFastTurtle]

In the last paragraph TFT said The New Testament is no different from the Old.

That is wrong. There is a big difference. In the Old Testament we have a human tyrant committing genocide, and in the New Testament we have the Creator sitting in judgement.

The division between "new testament" and "old testament" in our Bibles is actually inserted there by man, not originally in the text. I agree with that basic division

When we get specific we see there are many covenants that God made in the "old testament" not just one, God made a covenant with Noah, David, Abraham, Moses and the people of Israel, and God later reinforced the Abrahamic covenant with Abraham's descendants, so just based on this alone we can see there are more than one covenant in the "old testament".

When we get to the "new testament" and it talks about the oold covenant being close to passing away in the book of Hebrews, I take that to mean the temple is about to be destroyed and with it, the permanent destruction of the Mosaic Covenant.

But I believe the Abrahamic covenant and the covenant God made with Noah are still effective, because they are one sided covenants where God made a promise, with no strings attached so to speak. The Mosaic covenant was a covenant that involved the people of Israel and they did not keep their end of the deal.

The New Covenant prophecied in Jeremiah 31:31 I believe began on Pentecost, and despite the covenant being made with Jews originally, I believe based on what Paul wrote that gentiles are grafted into that covenant. The complete fullfillment of that New Covenant I believe is not yet, but will happen during the millennium when Israel as a nation is under the New Covenant and everyone shall know the Lord and no one needs to teach their neighbor.

If anyone has any Scriptural basis to prove me wrong I am open to correction, always. But this is what I have understood from the Scriptures and hold to be true.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

And by saying the Old Testament is no different from the New, then Christians might think they are entitled to do the same, despite the teaching from Jesus to the contrary.

If a Christian reads God telling Moses to wipe out an ancient nation, how would that inspire Christians to do the same today? The commandment was given in a different time to different people, that commandment has no bearing on us today, even if we were following JUDAISM. Jews understand that, it was a commandment given THEN, not a universal commandment, and even if it was universal those nations do not exist anymore.

 

[PS]

The division between "new testament" and "old testament" in our Bibles is actually inserted there by man, not originally in the text. I agree with that basic division

When we get specific we see there are many covenants that God made in the "old testament" not just one, God made a covenant with Noah, David, Abraham, Moses and the people of Israel, and God later reinforced the Abrahamic covenant with Abraham's descendants, so just based on this alone we can see there are more than one covenant in the "old testament".

When we get to the "new testament" and it talks about the oold covenant being close to passing away in the book of Hebrews, I take that to mean the temple is about to be destroyed and with it, the permanent destruction of the Mosaic Covenant.

But I believe the Abrahamic covenant and the covenant God made with Noah are still effective, because they are one sided covenants where God made a promise, with no strings attached so to speak. The Mosaic covenant was a covenant that involved the people of Israel and they did not keep their end of the deal.

The New Covenant prophecied in Jeremiah 31:31 I believe began on Pentecost, and despite the covenant being made with Jews originally, I believe based on what Paul wrote that gentiles are grafted into that covenant. The complete fullfillment of that New Covenant I believe is not yet, but will happen during the millennium when Israel as a nation is under the New Covenant and everyone shall know the Lord and no one needs to teach their neighbor.

If anyone has any Scriptural basis to prove me wrong I am open to correction, always. But this is what I have understood from the Scriptures and hold to be true.

The Temple is destroyed and everything it represented has gone. We now have a new High Priest and a New Covenant.

 

[PS]

If a Christian reads God telling Moses to wipe out an ancient nation, how would that inspire Christians to do the same today? The commandment was given in a different time to different people, that commandment has no bearing on us today, even if we were following JUDAISM. Jews understand that, it was a commandment given THEN, not a universal commandment, and even if it was universal those nations do not exist anymore.

It was you saying there was no difference between the Old and New Testaments.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

It was you saying there was no difference between the Old and New Testaments.

Allow me to clarify: There is no difference in that: God judges sin, its the same God, God is Holy, God is unchanging.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

The Temple is destroyed and everything it represented has gone. We now have a new High Priest and a New Covenant.

That is what I said in my post, did you read it before replying?