Not By Works

BillG · Nov 13, 2019

Not according to my list of rules and works required to do in order to be made right with God.

Next you will be telling me that we are saved by grace through faith?
Really?
Truth is if you believe this crap then you will use Gods grace as a licence to sin.
Free to rape, murder, commit adultery and so on.
Of course that's what you greasy gracers do.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Verse 10 does not apply to you because you do not do good works.

Next you will be telling me that God so loved the world that whoever believes in him will not perish.

I've read it and it's not enough.

Get real man, that's no true, neither is that it is the work of God that the only work is to believe in Jesus.

I've read it and it's not enough.

Next you will be telling me that when Jesus said he must go back to the Father so that the Holy Spirit must come to convict the world of its sin, that sin being unbelief.

I've read it but it's not enough.

Romans 5:1-5

Faith Triumphs in Trouble
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

I've read it but it's not enough.

Next you will quote

Isaiah 55:1-3

An Invitation to Abundant Life
1 “Ho! Everyone who thirsts,
Come to the waters;
And you who have no money,
Come, buy and eat.
Yes, come, buy wine and milk
Without money and without price.
2 Why do you spend money for what is not bread,
And your wages for what does not satisfy?
Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good,
And let your soul delight itself in abundance.
3 Incline your ear, and come to Me.
Hear, and your soul shall live;
And I will make an everlasting covenant with you—
The sure mercies of David.

I've read it but it's not enough.
No such thing as a free lunch.
I'll work to pay my way.

Hopefully I'll be accepted by God by my works.
You you got no chance.

EleventhHour · Nov 13, 2019

Whispered said:

I do not understand what this means?

Whispered · Nov 13, 2019

BillG said:

Not according to my list of rules and works required to do in order to be made right with God.

Next you will be telling me that we are saved by grace through faith?
Really?
Truth is if you believe this crap then you will use Gods grace as a licence to sin.
Free to rape, murder, commit adultery and so on.
Of course that's what you greasy gracers do.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Verse 10 does not apply to you because you do not do good works.

Next you will be telling me that God so loved the world that whoever believes in him will not perish.

I've read it and it's not enough.

Get real man, that's no true, neither is that it is the work of God that the only work is to believe in Jesus.

I've read it and it's not enough.

Next you will be telling me that when Jesus said he must go back to the Father so that the Holy Spirit must come to convict the world of its sin, that sin being unbelief.

I've read it but it's not enough.

Romans 5:1-5

Faith Triumphs in Trouble
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

I've read it but it's not enough.

Next you will quote

Isaiah 55:1-3

An Invitation to Abundant Life
1 “Ho! Everyone who thirsts,
Come to the waters;
And you who have no money,
Come, buy and eat.
Yes, come, buy wine and milk
Without money and without price.
2 Why do you spend money for what is not bread,
And your wages for what does not satisfy?
Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good,
And let your soul delight itself in abundance.
3 Incline your ear, and come to Me.
Hear, and your soul shall live;
And I will make an everlasting covenant with you—
The sure mercies of David.

I've read it but it's not enough.
No such thing as a free lunch.
I'll work to pay my way.

Hopefully I'll be accepted by God by my works.
You you got no chance.

"

Hopefully I'll be accepted by God by my works.
You you got no chance."

Good one.

Works are evidence of our Salvation not that which secures it. Jesus secured our Salvation on the cross. All that is needed is that we believe. The Holy Spirit that then indwells us leads us in the ways of the Father that we may serve as He calls us to do. That service isn't what keeps us saved nor does it become like credits to our account with the Father so that at the end of our days He tallies them. And then we discover if we have accrued enough to enter Heaven.
That is not what Jesus died for. We are in God's grace not by works so that we cannot boast.

BillG · Nov 13, 2019

Whispered said:

Hence Ephesians 2:8-10

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Whispered · Nov 13, 2019

BillG said:

Yes, our Salvation is by the grace of God's bestowal upon the whole world for the sake of the whole world. As the scripture says, we do not work to stay saved. Nor to retain the free irrevocable gift.

BillG · Nov 13, 2019

Whispered said:

Lots of people out there who say we work to stay saved (yet can't quantify the quantity or quality) yet say salvation is a free gift.

Oxymoron.

StrenfOGod · Nov 13, 2019

And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.” - John 3:36

VCO · Nov 13, 2019

Whispered said:

Let me give you the exact quote and the related quotes:

Isaiah 43:10-11 (HCSB)
10 “You are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.
11 I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.

Luke 2:11 (HCSB)
11 Today a Savior, who is Messiah the Lord, was born for you in the city of David.

Colossians 2:9 (NIV)
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

2 Corinthians 5:19 (ASV)
19 to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Son of GOD does not designate that ONE GIVEN that TITLE, is the OFFSPRING OF GOD, NOT AT ALL.

IT DESIGNATES the one WHO has been given that TITLE, to INHERIT ALL THAT THE FATHER HAS. That is all that MEANS. It is NOT like our CULTURE, YOU HAVE TO GET INTO WHAT THE JEWS MEANT BY THAT TITLE. A Jewish father, if he thought his biological sons where not responsible enough to INHERIT all that he has, HE COULD DESIGNATE even a Servant to Inherit all that HE HAS. That contract can be verbal, as long as you have 2 or 3 witnesses. From that point on the one he choose as his heir (even though the Father was still alive), had the right to CALL HIM SELF "SON OF JOSEPH" {or whatever the Father's name was, even though he was no relative} from the day on. THEREFORE, SO OF GOD, is only a TITLE of one Person of the the Holy Trinity, never intended to Designate OFFSPRING, just heir-ship of all the Father has. GOD CHOSE PART OF HIMSELF TO INHERIT ALL THAT HE HAS, LITERALLY.

John 16:15 (NASB)
15 "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

THAT INCLUDES HIS DEITY!

Philippians 2:5-6 (NKJV)
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,

Now, did JESUS USE this Inheritance Law Personally? HE SURE DID from the CROSS, and a Jewish Christian Lawyer confirmed in writing on the internet, that it was Legal and Binding, even in Modern Day ISRAEL. WHAT AM I TALKING ABOUT? This is an excellent example of how knowledge of Jewish Customs and Laws can GIVE YOU A MUCH DEEPER UNDERSTANDING OF SCRIPTURE.

The Law of the Land at the time of JESUS, stated that NO WOMAN can inherit Land. Both Joseph's Dad had Died, and Mary's Dad had Died too, before Jesus illegal Execution. Also later on apparently so had Joseph also died. Joseph was not there to take JESUS' Mother home after the Execution. With the Law stated IF a designated HEIR had not been Chosen, then the PROPERTY would go to the Eldest SON, or the HUSBAND of the Eldest Daughter, in case no SON was in line to inherit the PROPERTY. Both Joseph's father, JACOB, and Mary's Father, HELI, were both weathy Property owners. And YOU may say according Luke 3:23, Heli is Joseph's father. WRONG, that is Mary's father, but because of the fact the Mary was the OLDEST DAUGHTER, of HELI who had NO sons. The Inheritance went to Joseph, because of Law that women cannot inherit Property. SO Joseph, inherited Proptery of Jacob, his biological FATHER; and Mary's his WIFE's FATHER, so if he did not die unexpectedly, he chose JOSEPH to be his MALE HEIR. Or if he died of an unexpected, such as a heart attack, IT STILL WOULD GO TO MARY'S Husband. Either way JOSEPH HAD THE RIGHT TO CALL HIMSELF "SON OF HELI", and Joseph inherited both the Property of Jacob, and Heli.

Do we know when JOSEPH DIED? It does not say, by we have a major clue, that it had to be after this date:

Luke 9:58 (HCSB)
58 Jesus told him, “Foxes have dens, and birds of the sky have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay His head.”

So it have to be after JESUS spokes those words in the verse above, that Joseph had died, because Jesus knew she was alone when she came to the Cross, and JESUS was the apparent inheritor of JOSEPH's Property. Now keep in mind the JEWISH LAW of Inheritance, and the fact at that TIME even HIS brothers did not believe HE was the MESSIAH. So with Two or Three Witnesses, and therefore it was Legal and Binding.

John 19:25-28 (NKJV)
25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold your son!"
27 Then He said to the disciple, "Behold your mother!" And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home.
28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, "I thirst!"

JESUS CHOSE JOHN TO BE THE INHERITOR OF JOSEPH PROPERTY, so it would not be a burden to take care of HIS mother.

See how much more you can learn once you understand JEWISH CUSTOMS AND LAWS OF INHERITANCE?

Whispered · Nov 13, 2019

VCO said:

Let me give you the exact quote and the related quotes:

Isaiah 43:10-11 (HCSB)
10 “You are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.
11 I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.

Luke 2:11 (HCSB)
11 Today a Savior, who is Messiah the Lord, was born for you in the city of David.

Colossians 2:9 (NIV)
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

2 Corinthians 5:19 (ASV)
19 to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Son of GOD does not designate that ONE GIVEN that TITLE, is the OFFSPRING OF GOD, NOT AT ALL.

IT DESIGNATES the one WHO has been given that TITLE, to INHERIT ALL THAT THE FATHER HAS. That is all that MEANS. It is NOT like our CULTURE, YOU HAVE TO GET INTO WHAT THE JEWS MEANT BY THAT TITLE. A Jewish father, if he thought his biological sons where not responsible enough to INHERIT all that he has, HE COULD DESIGNATE even a Servant to Inherit all that HE HAS. That contract can be verbal, as long as you have 2 or 3 witnesses. From that point on the one he choose as his heir (even though the Father was still alive), had the right to CALL HIM SELF "SON OF JOSEPH" {or whatever the Father's name was, even though he was no relative} from the day on. THEREFORE, SO OF GOD, is only a TITLE of one Person of the the Holy Trinity, never intended to Designate OFFSPRING, just heir-ship of all the Father has. GOD CHOSE PART OF HIMSELF TO INHERIT ALL THAT HE HAS, LITERALLY.

John 16:15 (NASB)
15 "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

THAT INCLUDES HIS DEITY!

Philippians 2:5-6 (NKJV)
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,

Now, did JESUS USE this Inheritance Law Personally? HE SURE DID from the CROSS, and a Jewish Christian Lawyer confirmed in writing on the internet, that it was Legal and Binding, even in Modern Day ISRAEL. WHAT AM I TALKING ABOUT? This is an excellent example of how knowledge of Jewish Customs and Laws can GIVE YOU A MUCH DEEPER UNDERSTANDING OF SCRIPTURE.

The Law of the Land at the time of JESUS, stated that NO WOMAN can inherit Land. Both Joseph's Dad had Died, and Mary's Dad had Died too, before Jesus illegal Execution. Also later on apparently so had Joseph also died. Joseph was not there to take JESUS' Mother home after the Execution. With the Law stated IF a designated HEIR had not been Chosen, then the PROPERTY would go to the Eldest SON, or the HUSBAND of the Eldest Daughter, in case no SON was in line to inherit the PROPERTY. Both Joseph's father, JACOB, and Mary's Father, HELI, were both weathy Property owners. And YOU may say according Luke 3:23, Heli is Joseph's father. WRONG, that is Mary's father, but because of the fact the Mary was the OLDEST DAUGHTER, of HELI who had NO sons. The Inheritance went to Joseph, because of Law that women cannot inherit Property. SO Joseph, inherited Proptery of Jacob, his biological FATHER; and Mary's his WIFE's FATHER, so if he did not die unexpectedly, he chose JOSEPH to be his MALE HEIR. Or if he died of an unexpected, such as a heart attack, IT STILL WOULD GO TO MARY'S Husband. Either way JOSEPH HAD THE RIGHT TO CALL HIMSELF "SON OF HELI", and Joseph inherited both the Property of Jacob, and Heli.

Do we know when JOSEPH DIED? It does not say, by we have a major clue, that it had to be after this date:

Luke 9:58 (HCSB)
58 Jesus told him, “Foxes have dens, and birds of the sky have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay His head.”

So it have to be after JESUS spokes those words in the verse above, that Joseph had died, because Jesus knew she was alone when she came to the Cross, and JESUS was the apparent inheritor of JOSEPH's Property. Now keep in mind the JEWISH LAW of Inheritance, and the fact at that TIME even HIS brothers did not believe HE was the MESSIAH. So with Two or Three Witnesses, and therefore it was Legal and Binding.

John 19:25-28 (NKJV)
25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold your son!"
27 Then He said to the disciple, "Behold your mother!" And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home.
28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, "I thirst!"

JESUS CHOSE JOHN TO BE THE INHERITOR OF JOSEPH PROPERTY, so it would not be a burden to take care of HIS mother.

See how much more you can learn once you understand JEWISH CUSTOMS AND LAWS OF INHERITANCE?

Why do you feel the need to scream? The Jewish line passed through Mary. As it passed through the women by tradition.
Do not presume someone does not know this because they also know God is one God, not three separate and distinct persons. Jesus was not a separate and distinct person because He was God. The angel of God told Mary she was to name the son God begat upon her, Emmanuel, meaning, 'God with us'. That is as clear as it gets.

Or is it that you believe Jesus was a man, not divine, and God led him to do His will?

The Book of John chapter 10:30" I and the Father are one. 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from the Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Whispered · Nov 13, 2019

BillG said:

Agreed.
A free irrevocable gift of God. There are those who say that's not true either.
If we could work for our salvation Jesus wouldn't have had to suffer and die to fulfill the prophecy and ratify, seal, the covenant.

Whispered · Nov 13, 2019

StrenfOGod said:

That's true. Anyone who *believeth not in the son remains under God's judgment.

The Book of John chapter 3

STRONGS NT 544: *ἀπειθέω
ἀπειθέω, -ῶ; imperfect ἠπείθουν; 1 aorist ἠπείθησα; to be ἀπειθής (which see); not to allow oneself to be persuaded; not to comply with;
a. to refuse or withhold belief (in Christ, in the gospel; opposed to πιστεύω): τῷ υἱῷ, John 3:36; τῷ λόγῳ, 1 Peter 2:8; 1 Peter 3:1; absolutely of those who reject the gospel, [R. V. to be disobedient; cf. b.]: Acts 14:2; Acts 17:5 [Rec.]; Acts 19:9; Romans 15:31; 1 Peter 2:7 (T Tr WH ἀπιστοῦσιν).
b. to refuse belief and obedience: with the dative of thing or of person, Romans 2:8 (τῇ ἀληθείᾳ); Rom 11:30f (τῷ θεῷ); 1 Peter 4:17; absolutely, Romans 10:21 (Isaiah 65:2); Hebrews 3:18; Hebrews 11:31; 1 Peter 3:20. (In the Sept. a common equivalent to מָרָה, סָרַר; in Greek writings often from Aeschylus Ag. 1049 down; in Homer neuter plural ἀπιθεῖν.)

VCO · Nov 13, 2019

I just found this video that would have been a fitting tribute for our VETERANS DAY:

Whispered · Nov 13, 2019

Why would you take this thread off topic when there are Veterans Day salute threads in Miscellaneous forum and the HONOR thread posted on this board?

dcontroversal · Nov 13, 2019

Whispered said:

If you believed God you would believe the verbiage he inspired.......but we all know that is not the case regardless of how you spin it.....I gave you a grammatically correct factual truth and you swept it aside for that which is false.....end of story!

Whispered · Nov 13, 2019

dcontroversal said:

Actually the "verbiage" God inspired is what you ignore. Don't deflect.
All those scriptures where God says there is only one and no other. That should be enough to end what isn't actually in scripture.

And no, actually it isn't the end of the story.
You can't back it up with scripture. That's because scripture doesn't support Trinity.

This is why I said earlier that knowing the history of how the Bible we have today came to us is vital in our studies. We'd like to think our precious Father wrote the whole thing with His finger and it is now what it has always been. But the Bible has always been said to have arrived as an inspired work. And it has as a matter of fact been revised throughout the years.

Does Matthew 28:19 Have Added Text?
,,,"Below is Matthew 28:19 from the King James Bible.
Matthew 28:19 “Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”

Trinitarians often claim this verse supports their belief. However, this verse in no way affirms the trinity doctrine which states that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three co-equal, co-eternal beings that make up one God. Nobody denies there is the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. This verse refers to three powers but never says they are one and says nothing about their personality. It does not say they are three beings, it does not say they are three in one or one in three, it does not say these three are the Godhead, it does not say these three are a trinity, it does not say these three are co-equal or co-eternal beings, it does not say that these three are all God, and yet some draw the conclusion that this supports their belief in the trinity which is clearly not so. They are concluding something from this verse that it just does not say.

One might also ask why the apparent disobedience of the Apostles if this verse were genuine as there is not one who obeyed these supposed words of Jesus Christ from Matthew 28:19. Here are all the scriptures relating to baptism in the New Testament. New converts were all baptized into the name of Jesus Christ only.

Acts 2:38 “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

Acts 8:12 “But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.”

Acts 8:16 “For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”

Acts 10:48 “And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”

Acts 19:5 “When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”

Acts 22:16 “And now why tarriest you? arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”

Romans 6:3 “Know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?”

1 Corinthians 1:13 “Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were you baptized in the name of Paul?” [Implied]

Galatians 3:27 “For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

So should Matthew 28:19 read “baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” or “baptizing them in My name.” And based on your conclusion, which of the following is correct?

Colossians 2:12 “Buried with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in baptism, wherein also you are risen with them through the faith of the operation of God, who has raised them from the dead.”
or
Colossians 2:12 “Buried with him in baptism, wherein also you are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who has raised him from the dead.”

In conclusion, Matthew 28:19 does not prove or disprove the trinity doctrine and you will have to decide for yourself if this text belongs as it cannot be proven conclusively one way or the other. But Scripture certainly strongly indicates that baptism should be in the name of Christ as all examples reveal.

The reason we are baptized in the name of Christ is because we are baptized “into” Jesus Christ. Baptism is a symbol of His death, burial and resurrection. Even if the trinity doctrine was true, only Jesus Christ died, was buried and rose again. When we are baptized in the name of Christ we become Christians. Paul argued this point in 1 Corinthians 1:13 when he said, “Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?” The obvious answer to this rhetorical question is, “No. You were baptized in the name of Christ because He was crucified for you.”

Consider also “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;” Mark 16:16

And whose name do we call on to be saved when we are baptized?

“arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the NAME of the LORD.” Acts 22:16

It does not say “calling on the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit” now does it? And what is the ONLY name under heaven whereby we can be saved? We do NOT call on the name of the Father or Holy Spirit to be saved in baptism. These verses also reveal Matthew 28:19 as it appears to be incorrect and that it should have said in the name of the Lord only.

“for there is NONE other NAME under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” Acts 4:12 ' ".... [end of excerpt]

"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” The Book of John chapter 8

Whispered · Nov 13, 2019

...The Origins of the Trinity Doctrine

Many of the Bishops who formulated the doctrine of the Trinity were steeped in Greek and Platonic philosophy, which influenced their religious views. In fact the language they used in defining the trinity is taken directly from Platonic and Greek philosophy. The Platonic term trias, meaning three, was Latinized as trinitas, which gave us the English word trinity which is neither biblical nor Christian. As Bible scholars John McClintock and James Strong (wrote the famous Strong's Concordance) explain, “Towards the end of the 1st century, and during the 2nd, many learned men came over both from Judaism and paganism to Christianity. These brought with them into the Christian schools of theology their Platonic ideas and phraseology.” — (Cyclopaedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, 1891, Vol. 10, “Trinity,” p. 553)

So the Trinity was not derived from scripture, but was conceived in philosophy. Greek philosophers were greatly influenced by Plato (427-347 BC) who was considered the greatest of all Greek philosophers. Plato was ingrained with Trinitarian thought and knew that all the ancient religions had triad deities, and so he desired to come up with a better definition to define God above all the deities of Greek mythology. Plato's definition of God was, (1) The “first God,” who was the Supreme Being in the universe; (2) the “second God,” whom Plato described as the “soul of the universe”; and (3) the “third God,” defined as the “spirit.” The Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria (15 BC-AD 50) who followed Greek philosophy was influenced by Plato's version and saw God as, (1) Father, who created all things (Philo named him “the Demiurge”), (2) Mother, who was Knowledge the Maker possessed and (3) the Beloved Son was the world. Supposedly the union of demiurge and knowledge produced man's world. This esoteric type of thinking is what led to the birth and development of the trinity.

Notice how these quotes document a belief in a divine Trinity in many regions and religions of the ancient world and that the origin of the conception is entirely pagan. Egyptologist Arthur Weigall summed up the influence of ancient beliefs on the adoption of the trinity doctrine by the Catholic Church in this excerpt from his book Paganism in Our Christianity.

And so the Council of Nicea did not end the controversy and the bishops went on teaching as they had before, and the Arian crisis continued for another sixty years. Athanasius was exiled no fewer than five times and it was very difficult to make his creed stick. The ongoing disputes were violent and bloody at times. Noted historian Will Durant writes, “Probably more Christians were slaughtered by Christians in these two years (342-3) than by all the persecutions of Christians by pagans in the history of Rome.” — (The Story of Civilization, Vol. 4: The Age of Faith, 1950, p. 8). So Christians fought and slaughtered one another over their differing views of God.

[....]

...What does the Bible teach?

There is no mystery with the Biblical view of the Godhead which reveals there is but one true God the Father who is a literal Father, one Lord Jesus Christ being His literal Son, and one Holy Spirit being the presence and power of God and not a separate being with a separate consciousness.

As one Christian author wrote. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, not a son by creation as were the angels, nor a son by adoption as is the forgiven sinner, but a Son begotten in the express image of the Father's person that is equal in authority and divine perfection."

“The doctrine of the Trinity is a work of the Church, a record of its understanding of the statement or of its object, a record of its knowledge of God or of its battle against error and on behalf of the objectivity of its proclamation, a record of its theology and to that degree of its faith, and only to that extent, only indirectly, a record of revelation.” Karl Barth

VCO · Nov 13, 2019

Whispered said:

I did not scream at you, no way, shape, or form. I have never had a facebook account, and will not bow to FaceBook and their rules. Prior to FaceBook it was only for EMPHASIS that you used Colors, and Bold fonts, and Underlined parts of sentences. WHEN I went to high school all anyone my age only means by colors and bold fonts, and underlined parts of a sentence were for EMPHASIS ONLY. I am 70 years old and I am sorry your FaceBook generation misunderstood, but I do not bow to facebook rules.

Hear are verses that SUPPORT the TRINITY. EVEN MANAGEMENT HERE BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY. They are Three Distinct Persons, that make up ONLY ONE DEITY, just like water, ice, and steam are only one chemical compound, H20.

><>🕇<><

Isaiah 6:8 (ASV)
8 And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then I said, Here am I; send me.

First of all, the Trinity is NOT understood intellectually, but spiritually.

IF you are not Born Again, you are not equipped to understand it, and therefore any discussion would be fruitless.

Born Again, is when the Holy Spirit Himself comes into your heart (John 14:17, Acts 7:51, Acts 15:8),

Where HE pours the LOVE of GOD out in our hearts, (Rom. 5:5).

At the same time, the Holy Spirit brings our human spirit to Eternal Life (born again) which was dead because of the inherited sin nature (Eph 2:5, Col. 2:13, John 3:36); and simultaneously the Holy Spirit immerses us into the Spiritual Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:130).

The one who does not have the kind of faith that moves him to totally surrender to Christ willing as LORD, which means Master; is not born again (John 3:36, John 5:24), thus his human spirit and it's spiritual mind is not eternally alive yet;

AND it is with that eternally alive spiritual mind, that you understand deep spiritual truths of GOD, such as the Holy Trinity; which the human fleshly mind between our ears can never understand those deep spirititual truths about GOD, without the human spirit first becoming eternally alive:

1 Corinthians 2:1-16 (NIV)
1 When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.
2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling.
4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power,
5 so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"--
10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

In my opinion, You have to be Born Again, before you can begin to understand the Doctrine of the TRINITY.

Whispered · Nov 13, 2019

VCO said:

I did not scream at you, no way, shape, or form. I have never had a facebook account, and will not bow to FaceBook and their rules. Prior to FaceBook it was only for EMPHASIS that you used Colors and Bold fonts. WHEN I went to high school all anyone my age means by colors and bold fonts, and underlined parts of a sentence were for EMPHASIS ONLY. I am 70 years old and I am sorry your FaceBook generation misunderstood, but I do not bow to facebook rules.

Hear are verses that SUPPORT the TRINITY. EVEN MANAGEMENT HERE BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY. They are Three Distinct Persons, that make up ONLY ONE DEITY, just like water, ice, and steam are only one chemical compound, H20.

><>🕇<><

Isaiah 6:8 (ASV)
8 And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then I said, Here am I; send me.

First of all, the Trinity is NOT understood intellectually, but spiritually.

IF you are not Born Again, you are not equipped to understand it, and therefore any discussion would be fruitless.

Born Again, is when the Holy Spirit Himself comes into your heart (John 14:17, Acts 7:51, Acts 15:8),

Where HE pours the LOVE of GOD out in our hearts, (Rom. 5:5).

At the same time, the Holy Spirit brings our human spirit to Eternal Life (born again) which was dead because of the inherited sin nature (Eph 2:5, Col. 2:13, John 3:36); and simultaneously the Holy Spirit immerses us into the Spiritual Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:130).

The one who does not have the kind of faith that moves him to totally surrender to Christ willing as LORD, which means Master; is not born again (John 3:36, John 5:24), thus his human spirit and it's spiritual mind is not eternally alive yet;

AND it is with that eternally alive spiritual mind, that you understand deep spiritual truths of GOD, such as the Holy Trinity; which the human fleshly mind between our ears can never understand those deep spirititual truths about GOD, without the human spirit first becoming eternally alive:

1 Corinthians 2:1-16 (NIV)
1 When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.
2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling.
4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power,
5 so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"--
10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

In my opinion, You have to be Born Again, before you can begin to understand the Doctrine of the TRINITY.

Have a nice day.

Whispered · Nov 13, 2019

I wanted to add also since someone mentioned the management of the community are Trinitarians, that perhaps those who do not ascribe to that doctrine may want to reconsider participating in a post derail, as in this thread, or any thread titled so as to invite debate about the Trinity. We don't want to be baited so as to offend our good hosts.

dcontroversal · Nov 13, 2019

Whispered said:

Actually the "verbiage" God inspired is what you ignore. Don't deflect.
All those scriptures where God says there is only one and no other. That should be enough to end what isn't actually in scripture.

And no, actually it isn't the end of the story.
You can't back it up with scripture. That's because scripture doesn't support Trinity.

This is why I said earlier that knowing the history of how the Bible we have today came to us is vital in our studies. We'd like to think our precious Father wrote the whole thing with His finger and it is now what it has always been. But the Bible has always been said to have arrived as an inspired work. And it has as a matter of fact been revised throughout the years.

Does Matthew 28:19 Have Added Text?
,,,"Below is Matthew 28:19 from the King James Bible.
Matthew 28:19 “Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”

Trinitarians often claim this verse supports their belief. However, this verse in no way affirms the trinity doctrine which states that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three co-equal, co-eternal beings that make up one God. Nobody denies there is the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. This verse refers to three powers but never says they are one and says nothing about their personality. It does not say they are three beings, it does not say they are three in one or one in three, it does not say these three are the Godhead, it does not say these three are a trinity, it does not say these three are co-equal or co-eternal beings, it does not say that these three are all God, and yet some draw the conclusion that this supports their belief in the trinity which is clearly not so. They are concluding something from this verse that it just does not say.

One might also ask why the apparent disobedience of the Apostles if this verse were genuine as there is not one who obeyed these supposed words of Jesus Christ from Matthew 28:19. Here are all the scriptures relating to baptism in the New Testament. New converts were all baptized into the name of Jesus Christ only.

Acts 2:38 “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

Acts 8:12 “But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.”

Acts 8:16 “For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”

Acts 10:48 “And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”

Acts 19:5 “When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”

Acts 22:16 “And now why tarriest you? arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”

Romans 6:3 “Know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?”

1 Corinthians 1:13 “Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were you baptized in the name of Paul?” [Implied]

Galatians 3:27 “For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

So should Matthew 28:19 read “baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” or “baptizing them in My name.” And based on your conclusion, which of the following is correct?

Colossians 2:12 “Buried with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in baptism, wherein also you are risen with them through the faith of the operation of God, who has raised them from the dead.”
or
Colossians 2:12 “Buried with him in baptism, wherein also you are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who has raised him from the dead.”

In conclusion, Matthew 28:19 does not prove or disprove the trinity doctrine and you will have to decide for yourself if this text belongs as it cannot be proven conclusively one way or the other. But Scripture certainly strongly indicates that baptism should be in the name of Christ as all examples reveal.

The reason we are baptized in the name of Christ is because we are baptized “into” Jesus Christ. Baptism is a symbol of His death, burial and resurrection. Even if the trinity doctrine was true, only Jesus Christ died, was buried and rose again. When we are baptized in the name of Christ we become Christians. Paul argued this point in 1 Corinthians 1:13 when he said, “Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?” The obvious answer to this rhetorical question is, “No. You were baptized in the name of Christ because He was crucified for you.”

Consider also “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;” Mark 16:16

And whose name do we call on to be saved when we are baptized?

“arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the NAME of the LORD.” Acts 22:16

It does not say “calling on the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit” now does it? And what is the ONLY name under heaven whereby we can be saved? We do NOT call on the name of the Father or Holy Spirit to be saved in baptism. These verses also reveal Matthew 28:19 as it appears to be incorrect and that it should have said in the name of the Lord only.

“for there is NONE other NAME under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” Acts 4:12 ' ".... [end of excerpt]

"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” The Book of John chapter 8

Blah blah blah....you have nothing but false fluff....LET US make man in OUR image...you must be too dense to grasp US AND OUR!!

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