Are Those Who Have Fallen Away in Hebrews 6:4-8 Born-Again?

[ForestGreenCook]

oh, sorry JadenS, after re-reading your post i began to wonder what you were really asking. No, fallen away is not born-again, but my point was, that i believe that they were once born-again, and that they fell away. i.e. i don't believe that once saved, always saved. Many reformed proponents claim that this passage is referring to people who were never saved in the first place, i'm claiming that they were saved, but then fell away to eternal perdition. I thought that you were asking were they ever saved. I think that they were Christians, but are now lost and they can't retrieve. This is my understanding of the pericope.

I am a OSAS believer, so yes they are still saved eternally, but after they had been revealed the truth and taught and preached it in the church and then for some reason left the church whether it be lust for another woman, preach a false doctrine for more money in one of the denominational churches, or other various reasons, they were not allowed to be accepted back into the church. I have witnessed this myself.

 

[Whispered]

Hello Whispered,

What would you have to say about the parable of the king and the servant?

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Because of this, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlements, a debtor was brought to him owing ten thousand talents. Since the man was unable to pay, the master ordered that he be sold to pay his debt, along with his wife and children and everything he owned.

Then the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Have patience with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’

His master had compassion on him, forgave his debt, and released him.

But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii.g He grabbed him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe me.’

So his fellow servant fell down and begged him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you back.’

But he refused. Instead, he went and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay his debt.

When his fellow servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed, and they went and recounted all of this to their master.

Then the master summoned him and declared, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave all your debt because you begged me. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had on you?’ In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed.

That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”
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So, in the scripture above we have the king who is figuratively representing God, who forgives the servant/believer for his entire debt which represents our sin. Then after the servant fails to have compassion on his fellow servant/believer by forgiving him, the man's debt is reinstated.

There are conditions to salvation like the one above. Another would be the need to take up our crosses daily. Another would be if we wander away from the truth (see James 5:19-20). Every promise is contingent upon our continuing in faith, because that is how we are save, by grace through faith. Not just a one time confession, but by faith from first to last. Regarding this, scripture says the following:

"Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence—if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Therefore, if a believer does not continue in their faith, established and firm, then they will not be reconciled and presented holy, unblemished and blameless in His presence.

Jesus also spoke about this to His disciples about Him being the Vine and believers being the branches. The Father cuts off every branch in Jesus that bears no fruit. If anyone does not remain in Jesus, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned. (See John 15:1)

So here again, the promises are contingent upon bearing fruit. Some bring forth thirty, some sixty and some a hundred fold. But for the believer who is unfruitful, i.e. no fruit of the Spirit, he is like that branch the Father will cut off.

The master servant debt in the Book of Matthew chapter 18 is Hyperbolic.
Do you believe it tells the Christian that if we do not forgive those who offend us, owe us a debt, that God will remove His saving grace from us?

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Pro 14:14 The backslider in heart will be filled with the fruit of his ways, and a good man will be filled with the fruit of his ways.

Hos 11:7 My people are bent on turning away from me, and though they call out to the Most High, he shall not raise them up at all.

Luk 9:62 Jesus said to him: No man putting his hand to the plough and looking back is fit for the kingdom of God.

Gal 4:8 But then indeed, not knowing God, you served them who, by nature, are not gods. But now, after that you have known God, or rather are known by God: how turn you again to the weak and needy elements which you desire to serve again?

Heb 10:38 but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him."

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

2Pe 3:17 And so, dear friends, since you already know these things, continually be on your guard not to be carried away by the deception of lawless people. Otherwise, you may fall from your secure position.

I don’t think these verses are talking about Salvation but It’s talking about your walk Or securing your positions maybe In church or something If not ,then you would have to be saying that GOD didn’t make our spirit just and perfect born of Incorruptible seed.

 

[DB7]

I am a OSAS believer, so yes they are still saved eternally, but after they had been revealed the truth and taught and preached it in the church and then for some reason left the church whether it be lust for another woman, preach a false doctrine for more money in one of the denominational churches, or other various reasons, they were not allowed to be accepted back into the church. I have witnessed this myself.

I'm sorry FCG, that is a very outrageous claim to make i.e. that one can behave in any manner that they like and still retain their salvation. One action proves the other. I'm not talking about legalism, but rather James epistle about those claiming to be saved but that their actions prove otherwise, that is, exposing their lack of faith. I think that you yourself, just revealed the deficiency in your belief by citing many vices that you understand to have no bearing on one's redemption. You mentioned adultery, heresy and avarice, again, i'm not a legalist, but Christians cannot behave in any egregious manner that they like once saved, and claim that they still have remission for their sins, one substantiates the other.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I'm sorry FCG, that is a very outrageous claim to make i.e. that one can behave in any manner that they like and still retain their salvation. One action proves the other. I'm not talking about legalism, but rather James epistle about those claiming to be saved but that their actions prove otherwise, that is, exposing their lack of faith. I think that you yourself, just revealed the deficiency in your belief by citing many vices that you understand to have no bearing on one's redemption. You mentioned adultery, heresy and avarice, again, i'm not a legalist, but Christians cannot behave in any egregious manner that they like once saved, and claim that they still have remission for their sins, one substantiates the other.

You have a misunderstanding of how depraved all of us are, by our nature. We do not lose that nature just because we are regenerated, but carry that baggage with us until our natural death. Paul explains it in Romans 7:18-23. You will never understand the grace of God until you understand the depravity of man.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I'm sorry FCG, that is a very outrageous claim to make i.e. that one can behave in any manner that they like and still retain their salvation. One action proves the other. I'm not talking about legalism, but rather James epistle about those claiming to be saved but that their actions prove otherwise, that is, exposing their lack of faith. I think that you yourself, just revealed the deficiency in your belief by citing many vices that you understand to have no bearing on one's redemption. is the seperationYou mentioned adultery, heresy and avarice, again, i'm not a legalist, but Christians cannot behave in any egregious manner that they like once saved, and claim that they still have remission for their sins, one substantiates the other.

Death is a separation. In James 1:15 the death (seperation) when we commit a sin is the separation we experience of our fellowship with God until we repent because God does not fellowship with sin. We do not lose our eternal inheritance, just a separation from our fellowship with God, temporary, until we repent.

 

[Whispered]

You have a misunderstanding of how depraved all of us are, by our nature. We do not lose that nature just because we are regenerated, but carry that baggage with us until our natural death. Paul explains it in Romans 7:18-23. You will never understand the grace of God until you understand the depravity of man.

I am on the Ignore List of this member as they do not answer questions posed toward their assertive theology.
However, for this instance I want to ask anyone who believes as they do about our still having a sin nature even after we're saved.

If we're still Totally Depraved, as they believe, what then were we redeemed from? What occurred in the failure of our being regenerated as a new creation that the old has passed away?
The Book of 2nd Corinthians chapter 5 17 Whoever is a believer in Christ is a new creation. The old way of living has disappeared. A new way of living has come into existence. 18 God has done all this. He has restored our relationship with him through Christ, and has given us this ministry of restoring relationships.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Thank you brother for this amazing message. Just the way I see it as well. It is so clear and plain in the Scriptures, but we have allowed systematic theologies and theological language to muddy the waters and confuse the situation into an overcomplicated soup of doctrine that cannot be learned by just reading the Scriptures, instead you need someone to teach you those ideas.

This is the clear witness of Scripture, like it or not, there are always conditions, and in the Bible we are given many. I was told by one poster that my condition of "If you continue" was not a biblical one, yet no reply was given back when I quoted Colossians 1:23 proving it was indeed a Scriptural condition and will remain so no matter what any man says.

It is always refreshing to see when others are blessed with the same truth of God's word. In addition to Colossians 1:23, we have a couple of other scriptures which echo the same truth:

"We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end." - Hebrews 3:14

"Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

"For the gospel reveals the righteousness of God that comes by faith from start to finish, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.” - Romans 1:17

"You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either. - Romans 11:19

In the scripture above, Paul is writing to believers in Rome. He says to them that they are saved by faith, but if they turn to unbelief, then neither will God spare them. How then can a believer/branch be broken off if OSAS?

I believe in OSAS if we continue in faith that we had in the beginning and continue having till the day we take our last breath, or the Lord appears to gather the church. However, I am not a proponent of OSAS no matter what. Once a believer goes back to willfully living according to the sinful nature, he/she is accumulating sin which leads to death. That person has to return or be brought back to repentance and then those sins will be covered over and they will be saved from death. This is also supported by James 5:19-21

"My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

When a believer wanders away, they are no longer in step with the Spirit, no longer being transformed into the image of Christ and are no longer bearing fruit. If they die in the state they will be separated from God and held accountable for their sin and that because they did not continue firm in the faith that they had first.

Blessings to you!

 

[Ahwatukee]

The master servant debt in the Book of Matthew chapter 18 is Hyperbolic.
Do you believe it tells the Christian that if we do not forgive those who offend us, owe us a debt, that God will remove His saving grace from us?

That is exactly what the parable infers. It is the same thing if we do not take up our crosses daily, or if we don't bear fruit.

The meaning of the parable, is that if we as believers refuse to forgive our fellow brothers and sisters who sin against us, then neither will our heavenly Father forgive us our sins. In the parable, the debt of our sin is forgiven, but if we fail to also have mercy, the God can and will reinstate it just as the parable proclaims. If you'll look at the last line, regarding the man whose sin was reinstated, Jesus said:

"That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you (believers) unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”

We need to pay attention to the details of scripture. We are not just saved by a one-time confession, but by faith from beginning to the end.

 

[DB7]

Death is a separation. In James 1:15 the death (seperation) when we commit a sin is the separation we experience of our fellowship with God until we repent because God does not fellowship with sin. We do not lose our eternal inheritance, just a separation from our fellowship with God, temporary, until we repent.

Sorry FGC, you are way too Calvinistic for me. BTW, I'm referring to both your last posts, total depravity was a figment of Augustine, Luther & Calvin's imaginations, God never took away his image from within us, and he did not make it that one person can engender depravity to another. Please tell me that you grasp that? You are giving absolutely no significance whatsoever to one's actions. Again, I am not a legalist, BUT actions are divinely revealing, meaning, in one way, God meant it as a sign so that we can discern charlatans and heresies (doctrines that don't lead to good acts, for example), 'you will know them by their actions'. Your TULIP convictions are extremely rigid and narrow sighted. Are you sure that you part of the elect, if so, how, ...actions, if not, how?????

 

[Whispered]

That is exactly what the parable infers. It is the same thing if we do not take up our crosses daily, or if we don't bear fruit.

The meaning of the parable, is that if we as believers refuse to forgive our fellow brothers and sisters who sin against us, then neither will our heavenly Father forgive us our sins. In the parable, the debt of our sin is forgiven, but if we fail to also have mercy, the God can and will reinstate it just as the parable proclaims. If you'll look at the last line, regarding the man whose sin was reinstated, Jesus said:

"That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you (believers) unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”

We need to pay attention to the details of scripture. We are not just saved by a one-time confession, but by faith from beginning to the end.

With all respect I leave you to your belief.

 

[Deuteronomy]

Hebrews 6
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age
6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.

Hello Jaden, does that sound like a description of someone who has been "born again" to you It does not to me (and here's why).

It describes things that both Christians AND non-Christians (cf tares) can/will experience as a result of being part of the visible church (as it speaks of being "enlightened", of "tasting" and of "sharing", IOW, it speaks of things that people can ~experience~ in church, NOT of something that they have ~become~ in Christ).

I see these folks in Hebrews 6:4-6 (the people that these words were originally written about) as 1st Century Hebrew ~ALMOST~ Christians, unsaved Jews who existed for a time as part of the early church/early church life, who had come to a pretty complete understanding of the Christian faith (~especially~ of who Jesus really is), which resulted in them coming right up to the very point of believing, trusting and surrendering their lives to Him .. but, in the end, they never did, rather, they turned back (this also reminds me of the descriptions of those who were planted in the rocky or thorny soils .. e.g. Matthew 13:3-9, 18-23; cf Luke 9:26).

What we learn about Hebrew ~almost~ Christians like these (later in the Book of Hebrews) is that because they went on sinning willfully* after receiving the knowledge of the truth , there no longer remained a sacrifice for sins for them, but a terrifying expectation of judgment instead .. e.g. Heb 10:26-27.

~Deut
p.s. - if true, born again believers can fall away from the faith, was Jesus simply mistaken when He told us this, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and .. of all that He has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day" .. John 6:37-40, 44, 65 (excerpt).

*(their 'willful' sin was their continual rejection of Christ, their continual refusal to receive Him as their Savior and Lord .. those who continually reject Christ are never born again)​

​

 

[Deuteronomy]

Hello again @JadenS, I think the other problem with this passage, Hebrews 6:4-6 (for the churches who use it to teach that a true believer can lose his/her salvation) is this .. it says too much. I say this because, while they teach that a believer can lose his/her salvation (on the one hand), they also teach that a believer, who has lost their salvation, can get it back (on the other), which is something that this passage clearly tells us is "impossible" (see the text below in bold).

Hebrews 6​

4 In the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,​

5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,​

6 and then have fallen away, it is ~impossible~ to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.​

~Deut

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Sorry FGC, you are way too Calvinistic for me. BTW, I'm referring to both your last posts, total depravity was a figment of Augustine, Luther & Calvin's imaginations, God never took away his image from within us, and he did not make it that one person can engender depravity to another. Please tell me that you grasp that? You are giving absolutely no significance whatsoever to one's actions. Again, I am not a legalist, BUT actions are divinely revealing, meaning, in one way, God meant it as a sign so that we can discern charlatans and heresies (doctrines that don't lead to good acts, for example), 'you will know them by their actions'. Your TULIP convictions are extremely rigid and narrow sighted. Are you sure that you part of the elect, if so, how, ...actions, if not, how?????

If you are born again and are able to discern the things of the Spirit this is evidence that you are one of his elect.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Hello again @JadenS, I think the other problem with this passage, Hebrews 6:4-6 (for the churches who use it to teach that a true believer can lose his/her salvation) is this .. it says too much. I say this because, while they teach that a believer can lose his/her salvation (on the one hand), they also teach that a believer, who has lost their salvation, can get it back (on the other), which is something that this passage clearly tells us is "impossible" (see the text below in bold).

Hebrews 6​

4 In the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,​

5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,​

6 and then have fallen away, it is ~impossible~ to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.​

~Deut

No offense, but I interpret this scripture different than you do; Once the Holy Spirit has revealed the truth to a person and that person has taught and preached the truth and then decides to leave the church for various reasons, for example; lust after another woman of a different faith, or preaching a false doctrine in another denomination for more money, etc. The church will exclude them and will never accept them back in fellowship, even if they repent. I have experienced this happening. I believe they do not lose their eternal inheritance because if he was one of those that God gave to Jesus, Jesus paid for all of his sins by his death on the cross.

 

[PS]

No offense, but I interpret this scripture different than you do; Once the Holy Spirit has revealed the truth to a person and that person has taught and preached the truth and then decides to leave the church for various reasons, for example; lust after another woman of a different faith, or preaching a false doctrine in another denomination for more money, etc. The church will exclude them and will never accept them back in fellowship, even if they repent. I have experienced this happening. I believe they do not lose their eternal inheritance because if he was one of those that God gave to Jesus, Jesus paid for all of his sins by his death on the cross.

Yes Jesus will forgive our sins, but an apostate is someone who deliberately turns away from God, from which there is no return.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Yes Jesus will forgive our sins, but an apostate is someone who deliberately turns away from God, from which there is no return.

As far as our eternal inheritance is concerned, the correct statement is, "Yes he DID forgive the sins of all those that the Father gave him on the cross. Even though our sins are forgiven eternally, we still do sin as we sojourn here on earth and have to repent to stay in fellowship with God because God does not fellowship with sin, but if you are included as one of those the Father gave to his Son your sins will not keep you out of heaven, even if they are not repented of.

 

[dcontroversal]

Funny how those that peddle a false, losable salvation never lose salvation......you all must be super duper Christians......

IT IS impossible to fall away to the point of needing to be renewed........falling away, being whipped, blessings yanked, loss of reward YES......NEEDING TO BE RESAVED NO.......

God's gifts and CALLING ARE IRREVOCABLE.........

 

[DB7]

If you are born again and are able to discern the things of the Spirit this is evidence that you are one of his elect.

Very, very vague, subjective and ambiguous. After you FGC, discern something of the spirit for me please, that would differentiate between you and a non-elect?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Funny how those that peddle a false, losable salvation never lose salvation......you all must be super duper Christians......

IT IS impossible to fall away to the point of needing to be renewed........falling away, being whipped, blessings yanked, loss of reward YES......NEEDING TO BE RESAVED NO.......

God's gifts and CALLING ARE IRREVOCABLE.........

It might do you some good in understanding scripture better if you would look up the greek interpretation of the word salvation, which means "a deliverance". There is an eternal deliverance, and there is a timely deliverance. Learning the difference between the two would eliminate the possibility of contradicting scriptures. If you are numbered among those that the Father gave to his Son to die for and pay for their sins, Jesus said you will be raised up at the last day. (eternal deliverance). there is no sin that you will ever commit that will nullify your eternal inheritance. When you commit a sin you will be chastened by God and lose your fellowship with him until you repent (timely deliverance), because God will not fellowship with sin.