Are Those Who Have Fallen Away in Hebrews 6:4-8 Born-Again?

[JadenS]

Hebrews 6:4-8

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

 

[DB7]

Yes, they are born again, for the author declares that Christ died for them the first time (crucify Christ again). Meaning, his death had an impact on them, i.e. his blood cleansed them. This is the author's point, don't crucify Christ twice, first time was enough, second time is a mockery, for it has no affect for the re-convert, but condemnation (he wouldn't have brought if they were never saved in the first place). I am clearly not a proponent of 5 point Calvinism, so yes, once saved, can be perpetually fallen. Plus, i know of no Christian that has '...been enlightened, ... tasted the heavenly gift, ... shared in the Holy Spirit, ... tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age...', so that these are remarkable traits and experiences that only a real Christian can apprehend. In other words, I wish the Church today could make the same boasts as these back-sliders once made, including myself!

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

I think verse 9 answers your question.

 

[DB7]

I think verse 9 answers your question.

Sorry SAA, but i don't believe that you are representing the demograph that the author of Hebrews is delineating. Yes, verse 9 is speaking of certain of his readers, and yes as to your quotes, all Christians are truly paradoxes and conflicted, but he's warning his readers to be wary of those who are not like them, who have rejected Christ then have tried to come back. His HOPE and inclination is that his readers won't fall away, but he definitely is making the distinction against those who have or will, and the reality and consequences of it.

 

[Whispered]

Thankfully, Christ doesn't give up on us as easily as some may give up on Him.

Yes, they are born again. If they are not, then that means God breaks the promise that no one shall remove us from His hand. That would mean not even we can remove ourselves from there should we backslide, or fall away.
God knows the heart. Jesus died to take the sins of the world upon Himself.
All that happens for those who are repentant and reborn in Christ would have to be reversed, should Christ do away with us should we fall away from him.

 

[JadenS]

Yes, they are born again, for the author declares that Christ died for them the first time (crucify Christ again). Meaning, his death had an impact on them, i.e. his blood cleansed them. This is the author's point, don't crucify Christ twice, first time was enough, second time is a mockery, for it has no affect for the re-convert, but condemnation (he wouldn't have brought if they were never saved in the first place). I am clearly not a proponent of 5 point Calvinism, so yes, once saved, can be perpetually fallen. Plus, i know of no Christian that has '...been enlightened, ... tasted the heavenly gift, ... shared in the Holy Spirit, ... tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age...', so that these are remarkable traits and experiences that only a real Christian can apprehend. In other words, I wish the Church today could make the same boasts as these back-sliders once made, including myself!

How can a person be born-again if they have fallen away and it is impossible for them to be brought back to repentance?

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

 

[DB7]

How can a person be born-again if they have fallen away and it is impossible for them to be brought back to repentance?

oh, sorry JadenS, after re-reading your post i began to wonder what you were really asking. No, fallen away is not born-again, but my point was, that i believe that they were once born-again, and that they fell away. i.e. i don't believe that once saved, always saved. Many reformed proponents claim that this passage is referring to people who were never saved in the first place, i'm claiming that they were saved, but then fell away to eternal perdition. I thought that you were asking were they ever saved. I think that they were Christians, but are now lost and they can't retrieve. This is my understanding of the pericope.

 

[JadenS]

oh, sorry JadenS, after re-reading your post i began to wonder what you were really asking. No, fallen away is not born-again, but my point was, that i believe that they were once born-again, and that they fell away. i.e. i don't believe that once saved, always saved. Many reformed proponents claim that this passage is referring to people who were never saved in the first place, i'm claiming that they were saved, but then fell away to eternal perdition. I thought that you were asking were they ever saved. I think that they were Christians, but are now lost and they can't retrieve. This is my understanding of the pericope.

Thank you very much; I now understand where you are coming from.

 

[ProphetExcalibur]

Hebrews 6:4-8

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

The book is written to the Hebrews, or Jews; these scriptures are also! I believe this is Paul and God gave Him the green light in Rome to freely write this to his brethren the Jews.

Heb 5:11-12. ... seeing you are hard of hearing..... for when for the time you ought to be teachers, you have need that one teach you again which be the first principals of the Oracle's of God.... Does this remind you of anyone Jesus spoke to, like Nicodemus??!!

Keep this in context read the chapter before and after nothing changes in whom he is speaking to.

This is a warning i believe, a shot over the bow if you will. Paul's not speaking to some Christian in the 21st century. This is a dangerous time for Jewish Christians to be accepting Jesus and then rejecting Him?!?!?!

This is just my humble opinion!!

 

[MattforJesus]

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

These people have been saved for they escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

But there is a problem that they went back to enjoying the sin of the world and forfeited repentance, and if they do not allow the Spirit to lead them to abstain from sin then the blood of Christ cannot wash away their sin.

This situation can be reversed for all sin can be forgiven, but we cannot hold unto sin.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

These people have been saved but this is different, and there is no reversal here.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

We go through the plan of salvation, and learn the basics then we move on.

These people fell away because they abandoned the truth of the salvation plan of God, and the truth of Jesus Christ by believing an alternate reality by saying Jesus is not Savior although they may look at Him as a good teacher, believing another religion, or becoming an atheist.

If they abandon the truth for another belief they cannot go through the process of being saved again for God will not allow it.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

This is an example here that some shall depart from the faith and follow the new age movement interpretation of the Bible based on the occult, and evolution, and people are still evolving, and Jesus is not Lord and Savior, but a good teacher in spiritual enlightenment and love, and evolved to be an ascended master and avatar.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

The new age movement is the future for this sinful world and will pave the way to the beast kingdom for all people who do not love God.

The new age movement is the beginning of the end for the wicked.

People say conspiracy this, and conspiracy that, and New World Order, and one world government, but the new age movement is the agenda and conspiracy.

People say what of the end time and it is the new age movement, for they want to establish it in the world as standard religion when the nations come together.

Some that were in the faith will abandon the truth of the Bible, and follow their interpretation of the Bible in which there is no reversal to come back to the truth.

But if someone started out in the new age movement they can accept the truth and be saved.

If we hold unto sin we forfeit repentance, but there is reversal for all sin can be forgiven, and if we abandon the truth of Jesus, and the Gospel of Christ for another belief we forfeit salvation for there is no reversal.

Also God knows the heart and some may think upon an alternate reality but have doubts about it and do not embrace it, so they did not abandon the truth, but they have to get rid of doubts to be saved but there is reversal with doubts.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Does Incorruptible mean that corruption Is possible?
Can the Incorruptible seed of GOD become corrupted?

1 John 3:1-3
King James Version


1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

 

[PS]

Hebrews 6:4-8

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

If it is impossible to fall away, we would not be warned against falling away, because they cannot be born again

 

[garee]

I would say as in all cases its how we view the word faith .Who it belong to and where it comes form .

Two kinds . Faith in respect to men, and faith in respect to God the faithful Creator

The key to understanding Hebrew 6 is found in the introduction. Many bypass or overlook the better things that accompany salvation which is. . . Faith from God or the faith of Christ.

Not our new faith we offer towards him through ceremonial laws as shadows. Called "dead works" . No living faith coming from heaven.

Hebrews 6 King James Version (KJV) Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God (not from) , Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.And this will we do, if God permit.

 

[garee]

Does Incorruptible mean that corruption Is possible?
Can the Incorruptible seed of GOD become corrupted?

1 John 3:1-3
King James Version


1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Yes the purification of his faith working in us giving us new spirit life eternal, it gives us his living hope.

Acts 15:8-10 King James Version (KJV) And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

The faith of Christ in working in them yoked with him the imputed righteousness.

It is impossible for corruption to put on the incorruptible. Corrupted flesh and blood could never enter the new heavens and earth. The dead creation will not rise to new eternal life. In that way all things are new. No reconditioned or rebuilt creation.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

When looking at Isaiah 53. In order to establish his government of peace. The father in order to do what the written law that kills could not do, used the corrupted flesh of the Son of man, Jesus to fulfill the promise. Striking the Son as He poured out his unseen wrath on his the Son of man ,Jesus'' flesh" which was signified as sinful in order to demonstrate for three days that it was kept from corrupting .Again as the father poured new spirit life in him.

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (three days)

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ("law of faith" believing is seeing) hath made me free from the law of sin and death.For what the (letter of) law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of "sinful" flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:Roman8:2-3

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Yes the purification of his faith working in us giving us new spirit life eternal, it gives us his living hope.

Acts 15:8-10 King James Version (KJV) And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

The faith of Christ in working in them yoked with him the imputed righteousness.

It is impossible for corruption to put on the incorruptible. Corrupted flesh and blood could never enter the new heavens and earth. The dead creation will not rise to new eternal life. In that way all things are new. No reconditioned or rebuilt creation.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

When looking at Isaiah 53. In order to establish his government of peace. The father in order to do what the written law that kills could not do, used the corrupted flesh of the Son of man, Jesus to fulfill the promise. Striking the Son as He poured out his unseen wrath on his the Son of man ,Jesus'' flesh" which was signified as sinful in order to demonstrate for three days that it was kept from corrupting .Again as the father poured new spirit life in him.

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (three days)

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ("law of faith" believing is seeing) hath made me free from the law of sin and death.For what the (letter of) law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of "sinful" flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:Roman8:2-3

Yes believing Is seeing (so to speak) for those In faith, but for the world Seeing Is believing.

 

[PS]

Yes believing Is seeing (so to speak) for those In faith, but for the world Seeing Is believing.

Read this a few minutes ago, I thought it was rather good.

"Believing (or faith) comes before the parachute opens."​

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Hebrews 6:4-8

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

Your poll option Is not clear'The Second option says” that have fallen away were never saved” If a person were never saved then they can’t fall away.

Also I believe that If a person has been saved then they won’t fall away the Bible says that those that have this hope In them will seek to perfect themselves even as their spirits have been made perfect.

IMO,where Hebrews says “It’s Impossible”could mean If It were possible.

 

[PS]

Your poll option Is not clear'The Second option says” that have fallen away were never saved” If a person were never saved then they can’t fall away.

Also I believe that If a person has been saved then they won’t fall away the Bible says that those that have this hope In them will seek to perfect themselves even as their spirits have been made perfect.

IMO,where Hebrews says “It’s Impossible”could mean If It were possible.

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Pro 14:14 The backslider in heart will be filled with the fruit of his ways, and a good man will be filled with the fruit of his ways.

Hos 11:7 My people are bent on turning away from me, and though they call out to the Most High, he shall not raise them up at all.

Luk 9:62 Jesus said to him: No man putting his hand to the plough and looking back is fit for the kingdom of God.

Gal 4:8 But then indeed, not knowing God, you served them who, by nature, are not gods. But now, after that you have known God, or rather are known by God: how turn you again to the weak and needy elements which you desire to serve again?

Heb 10:38 but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him."

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

2Pe 3:17 And so, dear friends, since you already know these things, continually be on your guard not to be carried away by the deception of lawless people. Otherwise, you may fall from your secure position.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Thankfully, Christ doesn't give up on us as easily as some may give up on Him.

Yes, they are born again. If they are not, then that means God breaks the promise that no one shall remove us from His hand. That would mean not even we can remove ourselves from there should we backslide, or fall away.
God knows the heart. Jesus died to take the sins of the world upon Himself.
All that happens for those who are repentant and reborn in Christ would have to be reversed, should Christ do away with us should we fall away from him.

Hello Whispered,

What would you have to say about the parable of the king and the servant?

=================================================================
Because of this, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlements, a debtor was brought to him owing ten thousand talents. Since the man was unable to pay, the master ordered that he be sold to pay his debt, along with his wife and children and everything he owned.

Then the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Have patience with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’

His master had compassion on him, forgave his debt, and released him.

But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii.g He grabbed him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe me.’

So his fellow servant fell down and begged him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you back.’

But he refused. Instead, he went and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay his debt.

When his fellow servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed, and they went and recounted all of this to their master.

Then the master summoned him and declared, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave all your debt because you begged me. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had on you?’ In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed.

That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”
=================================================================

So, in the scripture above we have the king who is figuratively representing God, who forgives the servant/believer for his entire debt which represents our sin. Then after the servant fails to have compassion on his fellow servant/believer by forgiving him, the man's debt is reinstated.

There are conditions to salvation like the one above. Another would be the need to take up our crosses daily. Another would be if we wander away from the truth (see James 5:19-20). Every promise is contingent upon our continuing in faith, because that is how we are save, by grace through faith. Not just a one time confession, but by faith from first to last. Regarding this, scripture says the following:

"Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence—if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Therefore, if a believer does not continue in their faith, established and firm, then they will not be reconciled and presented holy, unblemished and blameless in His presence.

Jesus also spoke about this to His disciples about Him being the Vine and believers being the branches. The Father cuts off every branch in Jesus that bears no fruit. If anyone does not remain in Jesus, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned. (See John 15:1)

So here again, the promises are contingent upon bearing fruit. Some bring forth thirty, some sixty and some a hundred fold. But for the believer who is unfruitful, i.e. no fruit of the Spirit, he is like that branch the Father will cut off.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

Hello Whispered,

What would you have to say about the parable of the king and the servant?

=================================================================
Because of this, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlements, a debtor was brought to him owing ten thousand talents. Since the man was unable to pay, the master ordered that he be sold to pay his debt, along with his wife and children and everything he owned.

Then the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Have patience with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’

His master had compassion on him, forgave his debt, and released him.

But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii.g He grabbed him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe me.’

So his fellow servant fell down and begged him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you back.’

But he refused. Instead, he went and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay his debt.

When his fellow servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed, and they went and recounted all of this to their master.

Then the master summoned him and declared, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave all your debt because you begged me. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had on you?’ In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed.

That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”
=================================================================

So, in the scripture above we have the king who is figuratively representing God, who forgives the servant/believer for his entire debt which represents our sin. Then after the servant fails to have compassion on his fellow servant/believer by forgiving him, the man's debt is reinstated.

There are conditions to salvation like the one above. Another would be the need to take up our crosses daily. Another would be if we wander away from the truth (see James 5:19-20). Every promise is contingent upon our continuing in faith, because that is how we are save, by grace through faith. Not just a one time confession, but by faith from first to last. Regarding this, scripture says the following:

"Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence—if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Therefore, if a believer does not continue in their faith, established and firm, then they will not be reconciled and presented holy, unblemished and blameless in His presence.

Jesus also spoke about this to His disciples about Him being the Vine and believers being the branches. The Father cuts off every branch in Jesus that bears no fruit. If anyone does not remain in Jesus, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned. (See John 15:1)

So here again, the promises are contingent upon bearing fruit. Some bring forth thirty, some sixty and some a hundred fold. But for the believer who is unfruitful, i.e. no fruit of the Spirit, he is like that branch the Father will cut off.

Thank you brother for this amazing message. Just the way I see it as well. It is so clear and plain in the Scriptures, but we have allowed systematic theologies and theological language to muddy the waters and confuse the situation into an overcomplicated soup of doctrine that cannot be learned by just reading the Scriptures, instead you need someone to teach you those ideas.

This is the clear witness of Scripture, like it or not, there are always conditions, and in the Bible we are given many. I was told by one poster that my condition of "If you continue" was not a biblical one, yet no reply was given back when I quoted Colossians 1:23 proving it was indeed a Scriptural condition and will remain so no matter what any man says.