Is God A Moral Monster?

[Dibby53]

who slew every firstborn in Egypt?
who destroyed Sodom?
who flooded the earth?
who gave everything that lives existence in the first place?
we don't belong to ourselves, friend.

God's love is invitational. You cannot initiate a loving relationship with someone by threatening them. The prodigal son decided to return to the Father when he was sick of the way he was living. Not because God threatened him. Once he returned he was loved and accepted.

 

[posthuman]

I cannot love someone I am scared of.

perfect love casts out fear.
He is the resurrection and the life. if you believe Him, tho you die, you will live.

 

[Dibby53]

perfect love casts out fear.
He is the resurrection and the life. if you believe Him, tho you die, you will live.

Exactly! There is no fear in love.

 

[posthuman]

I,m looking at Jesus as presented in the gospels.

​

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And He said to those who stood by, ‘Take the mina from him, and give it to him who has ten minas.’
(But they said to Him, ‘Master, he has ten minas.’)
‘For I say to you, that to everyone who has will be given; and from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. But bring here those enemies of Mine, who did not want Me to reign over them, and slay them before Me.’ ”
(Luke 19:24-27)​

 

[posthuman]

You are a follower of Christ, not the partial revelation of the old testament. Jesus is what God looks like.

the God who gives the first testament is the same God that gives the last. the Bible is the testimony of Jesus Christ. He opened the understanding of the disciples on the road to Emmaus, showing them Himself in all the OT. if you don't believe that the same God who delivered Israel is the same God who was manifest in the flesh, then i think you don't believe Jesus as the gospels testify of Him. He's who it is that withers the fig tree.

 

[Sipsey]

Yes but God's moral standards are supposed to be higher than human ones. Mass murder is not a standard most humans would aspire to as a moral ideal.

It is perfectly fine to question God, it’s another to proclaim you know God’s motives.

 

[posthuman]

Exactly! There is no fear in love.

because fear has to do with punishment. and the one the Father loves, He chastises.

Lo, though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him ​

(Job 13:15)​

 

[Dino246]

Ok. Let's agree to disagree. You think I,ve got things backwards. I think you have got things backwards. Peace x

I think you chose a poor time to suggest this. It looks a lot like avoidance. I honestly do not think your reasoning on this matter is coherent. You can spit that back at me, but I don't see where you have made any attempt to deal with my assertions. You've merely rejected them outright with the same assertion you made at the start.

I,m not sure you can take a metaphor from the bible and claim it ligitimates mass murder. Since literal swords don't usually come out of people's mouths then it is clear that it is not literal. The wicked will be slain "by the breath of his lips"......in other words, they will no longer be wicked because they will heed the message of the Prince of Peace.

Um, no. Slain means dead, not some completely unrelated status such as 'no longer wicked'.

 

[Dibby53]

I think you chose a poor time to suggest this. It looks a lot like avoidance. I honestly do not think your reasoning on this matter is coherent. You can spit that back at me, but I don't see where you have made any attempt to deal with my assertions. You've merely rejected them outright with the same assertion you made at the start.


Um, no. Slain means dead, not some completely unrelated status such as 'no longer wicked'.

I have put my points to what you have said in previous posts Dino. So I feel I have answered your arguments. It is simply that you do not accept them, or think I am right. There comes a point where an impasse is reached. You feel you are right. I feel I am right. Where can we go from here?

 

[Dibby53]

because fear has to do with punishment. and the one the Father loves, He chastises.

Lo, though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him ​

(Job 13:15)​

Yes. We all live under a heavy burden of fear and anxiety about life. We cannot escape. We are trapped. We transfer this fear onto God and we fear his punishment. Since God is perfect love there is no fear in him....he wishes to free us to enjoy his love. His chastisement is to allow us to experience the fruits of our state of being....until we turn to him. That turning is repentence.

 

[Hullexile]

I have put my points to what you have said in previous posts Dino. So I feel I have answered your arguments. It is simply that you do not accept them, or think I am right. There comes a point where an impasse is reached. You feel you are right. I feel I am right. Where can we go from here?

I would suggest for you a reading of the Bible. You can't argue the God of the OT is different to Jesus in the NT and still believe in the Trinity.

 

[Dibby53]

I would suggest for you a reading of the Bible. You can't argue the God of the OT is different to Jesus in the NT and still believe in the Trinity.

Well I can argue that, although that wouldn't be my point. I see an evolution in the understanding of God from the writers of the various books of the bible. To me he goes from fearful tribal deity to the revelation of God as perfect love. God doesn't change but our understanding does.

 

[Hullexile]

Well I can argue that, although that wouldn't be my point. I see an evolution in the understanding of God from the writers of the various books of the bible. To me he goes from fearful tribal deity to the revelation of God as perfect love. God doesn't change but our understanding does.

So you don't think the Bible is "God breathed"?

What about the flood? Many children killed in that. Do you put that down to a natural disaster!

 

[posthuman]

Well I can argue that, although that wouldn't be my point. I see an evolution in the understanding of God from the writers of the various books of the bible. To me he goes from fearful tribal deity to the revelation of God as perfect love. God doesn't change but our understanding does.

​

did you forget already what i've posted for you, how Jesus describes Himself?

what will The Owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vinedressers, and give the vineyard to others. ​

(Mark 12:9) ​

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He points hundreds of times to the OT saying that these things testify of Him, affirming them as true. He says you would believe Him if you believed Moses - but seeing that you do not believe Moses, how is it you think you actually believe Him?

 

[Dibby53]

So you don't think the Bible is "God breathed"?

What about the flood? Many children killed in that. Do you put that down to a natural disaster!

It could well have been a natural disaster. The Sumerian account of a flood predates the biblical account. And their are many accounts of a flood in ancient texts, the greek myths, for example. Plato speaks of Atlantis being washed away. So something significant happened. Maybe an earthquake or asteroid strike? The ancient people didn't understand such things as we do today. They were looking to make some meaning out of such an event. I don't think God needs to drown children to prove his point.

I am not a biblical inerrantist. That view only became prominant in Victorian times with the rise of fundamentalism, as a reaction against Darwinism. Please note: this does NOT mean that I view the bible as valueless, or uninspired! It is a library of many books written over a very long period. Historical and cultural context is crucial to its understanding.

 

[Dibby53]

​

did you forget already what i've posted for you, how Jesus describes Himself?

what will The Owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vinedressers, and give the vineyard to others. ​

(Mark 12:9) ​

​

He points hundreds of times to the OT saying that these things testify of Him, affirming them as true. He says you would believe Him if you believed Moses - but seeing that you do not believe Moses, how is it you think you actually believe Him?

More importantly for me is how I experience God today. That is an experience of all embracing love that frees from fear. I personally have not sat still in meditation, or contemplation and experienced a wrathful presence.

 

[posthuman]

More importantly for me is how I experience God today. That is an experience of all embracing love that frees from fear. I personally have not sat still in meditation, or contemplation and experienced a wrathful presence.

would you consider it evil if He returns your body to dust? does that make Him a murderer?
because your body will die.

if it is 'okay' with you that your own flesh dies - how do you justify calling God, who created all flesh for His own purpose, a murderer if He also brings about that other people's bodies return to dust?

 

[posthuman]

More importantly for me is how I experience God today.

more important than what the scripture actually says about Him?
if you reject the Bible, how do you know that what you are calling 'god' is actually God?
if you re-write the Bible to suit what you prefer and how you think it ought to be, how do you know you're not also creating a god of your own desires and imagination? instead of the real One?
what's your standard for whether you yourself interpret your own experiences correctly? do you just always assume that what you think & feel is right? or do you have a standard that you look to, to compare yourself and your own thoughts and feelings with?

 

[JesusLives]

So you don't think the Bible is "God breathed"?

What about the flood? Many children killed in that. Do you put that down to a natural disaster!

I would put that down to God's judgment on a wicked race that He gave 120 years to repent and get on the boat.

 

[posthuman]

more important than what the scripture actually says about Him?
if you reject the Bible, how do you know that what you are calling 'god' is actually God?
if you re-write the Bible to suit what you prefer and how you think it ought to be, how do you know you're not also creating a god of your own desires and imagination? instead of the real One?
what's your standard for whether you yourself interpret your own experiences correctly? do you just always assume that what you think & feel is right? or do you have a standard that you look to, to compare yourself and your own thoughts and feelings with?

i'm asking, @Dibby53, because the narrative you've been giving here seems like you looked at ((or heard about)) something in the Bible and didn't understand it. you couldn't comprehend how it could be right. so instead of believing what is written, you decided for yourself that the scripture must be wrong. that the God described in the Bible is a lie. you did this based on your own personal feelings and judgement, and did so under your own presumption that you understand clearly what you heard about.

just from an objective, abstract point of view - is what you did legitimate?
i don't think it is. i think that if you want to actually know God, you need to approach scripture from the standpoint that it is true, and that what God does is good. when you find God doing something that you don't comprehend as being good, then your job isn't to judge God and reject what you read. your job is to continue under the assumption that He is good and does what is right, and figure out what understanding of that thing glorifies God. you need to figure out why God destroyed everything and everyone in Jericho, not pretend He didn't, and not curse Him in your heart for doing so.