Is God A Moral Monster?

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Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,606
13,863
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I,m fighting the attempt by some christians to make the genocide of whole tribes of people somehow moral. We all know this deep down. It is strange that before someone becomes Christian they would say unequivocally that it is wrong. Afterwards it is seen as somehow "right". So in a way it is a worse situation than before!
Your argument is simply backwards, as I have explained previously.

Unless you start with God and His character, your moral perspective is based on your own ideas. You can claim all you like that it is based on the character of Jesus, but you are rejecting the character of God. Until you integrate them, you only have an idol of your own making.
 
Sep 29, 2019
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Your argument is simply backwards, as I have explained previously.

Unless you start with God and His character, your moral perspective is based on your own ideas. You can claim all you like that it is based on the character of Jesus, but you are rejecting the character of God. Until you integrate them, you only have an idol of your own making.
So I have an idol but you have the perfect truth?
 
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I'm not going to justify your fallacious dichotomy.
Ok. Let's agree to disagree. You think I,ve got things backwards. I think you have got things backwards. Peace x
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
1,502
713
113
I,m fighting the attempt by some christians to make the genocide of whole tribes of people somehow moral. We all know this deep down. It is strange that before someone becomes Christian they would say unequivocally that it is wrong. Afterwards it is seen as somehow "right". So in a way it is a worse situation than before!
Seems that the issue of “morality” is determined by the standard one uses. Human standards vs God’s are like night and day. Either one trusts God, or they do not.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,957
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seems to come down to a simple question:

does the Potter have right over the clay or does the clay have rights the Potter must be subject to?

fear & believe God or think to judge Him? choices.
 
Sep 29, 2019
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Seems that the issue of “morality” is determined by the standard one uses. Human standards vs God’s are like night and day. Either one trusts God, or they do not.
Yes but God's moral standards are supposed to be higher than human ones. Mass murder is not a standard most humans would aspire to as a moral ideal.
 
Sep 29, 2019
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seems to come down to a simple question:

does the Potter have right over the clay or does the clay have rights the Potter must be subject to?

fear & believe God or think to judge Him? choices.
We are not inert clay. We are human beings able to reason, think, feel and learn. Does God expect us to follow a moral code that he himself does not? When he says, "Thou shalt not murder" does he mean it?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,957
13,615
113
We are not inert clay. We are human beings able to reason, think, feel and learn. Does God expect us to follow a moral code that he himself does not? When he says, "Thou shalt not murder" does he mean it?

Today, if only you would hear His voice,
do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah
as you did that day at Massah in the wilderness

(Psalm 95:7-8)
Meribah means quarreling, Massah means testing

The whole Israelite community set out from the Desert of Sin, traveling from place to place as the Lord commanded. They camped at Rephidim, but there was no water for the people to drink. So they quarreled with Moses and said, “Give us water to drink.”
Moses replied, “Why do you quarrel with me? Why do you put the Lord to the test?”
But the people were thirsty for water there, and they grumbled against Moses. They said, “Why did you bring us up out of Egypt to make us and our children and livestock die of thirst?”
Then Moses cried out to the Lord, “What am I to do with these people? They are almost ready to stone me.”
The Lord answered Moses, “Go out in front of the people. Take with you some of the elders of Israel and take in your hand the staff with which you struck the Nile, and go. I will stand there before you by the rock at Horeb. Strike the rock, and water will come out of it for the people to drink.” So Moses did this in the sight of the elders of Israel. And he called the place Massah and Meribah because the Israelites quarreled and because they tested the Lord saying, “Is the Lord among us or not?”
(Exodus 17:1-7)
at Meribah Massah the Israelites also accused God of being an evil murderer.
they said, He only brought us out to kill us and our children and our animals.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,149
30,297
113
We are not inert clay. We are human beings able to reason, think, feel and learn. Does God expect us to follow a moral code that he himself does not? When he says, "Thou shalt not murder" does he mean it?
Murder is illicit killing. Are you calling God a law breaker?
 
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Murder is illicit killing. Are you calling God a law breaker?
No. For God is love. And Jesus told us to love our enemies and do good to those who hate us.
If a load of men come into a village and slaughter all the men, women, children and livestock I don't think God told them to do it.
If I did it I would be put in a mental asylum.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,957
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My understanding is based on my personal relationship with God. Also, the "complete" revelation of God's character is Jesus as seen in the gospels. If it doesn't look like Jesus then it isn't God. Jesus said, "Suffer the little children to come unto me. For to such is the kingdom of God". So slaughtering them in the promised land is not God, but an act of evil.

this is what Jesus looks like:


Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.
(Revelation 19:15-16)

His delight is in the fear of the Lord,
And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes,
Nor decide by the hearing of His ears;
But with righteousness He shall judge the poor,
And decide with equity for the meek of the earth;
He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.
Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins,
And faithfulness the belt of His waist.
(Isaiah 11:3-5)


striking down the nations and slaying the wicked.
judging the whole earth in righteousness and faithfulness.

crying to the rocks and hills to hide them from the wrath of the Lamb.

do you think He's a murderer too? God is One.
 
Sep 29, 2019
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Today, if only you would hear His voice,
do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah
as you did that day at Massah in the wilderness
(Psalm 95:7-8)
Meribah means quarreling, Massah means testing

The whole Israelite community set out from the Desert of Sin, traveling from place to place as the Lord commanded. They camped at Rephidim, but there was no water for the people to drink. So they quarreled with Moses and said, “Give us water to drink.”
Moses replied, “Why do you quarrel with me? Why do you put the Lord to the test?”
But the people were thirsty for water there, and they grumbled against Moses. They said, “Why did you bring us up out of Egypt to make us and our children and livestock die of thirst?”
Then Moses cried out to the Lord, “What am I to do with these people? They are almost ready to stone me.”
The Lord answered Moses, “Go out in front of the people. Take with you some of the elders of Israel and take in your hand the staff with which you struck the Nile, and go. I will stand there before you by the rock at Horeb. Strike the rock, and water will come out of it for the people to drink.” So Moses did this in the sight of the elders of Israel. And he called the place Massah and Meribah because the Israelites quarreled and because they tested the Lord saying, “Is the Lord among us or not?”
(Exodus 17:1-7)
at Meribah Massah the Israelites also accused God of being an evil murderer.
they said, He only brought us out to kill us and our children and our animals.
No. It is not the same. They were afraid of dying of thirst. A reasonable thing to fear in the desert. They didn't trust God to provide. That is very different to a deliberate policy of genocide.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,957
13,615
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You didn't address my post. Jesus is not three-quarters His revelation nor is He a part of His revelation. He is the totality. Jesus is what the Father is like. So, would Jesus murder children in the promised land?
who slew every firstborn in Egypt?
who destroyed Sodom?
who flooded the earth?
who gave everything that lives existence in the first place?
we don't belong to ourselves, friend.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,957
13,615
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Any assessment of God's character that ignores three-quarters of His revelation is suspect at best. Any assessment that rejects parts of His revelation is wrong.

yes :)


this guy Hazakim said it pretty well, i think:



"We've created a.. Jesus that's.. very sweet and He is, but there's another side…”
“For there is no fear of God in their eyes!!! Nobody fears God anymore!!”
As sure as fire will burn - as sure as water is wet
There’s another side of His nature that we often neglect
Very seldom do men address it - It causes arrest
Something we want to forget, like a bomb it's a threat
We think of arms outstretched, Yeshua calm and collect
Never pause to reflect of when He comes to collect
Seeing Jesus with eyes of fire is as raw as it gets
Heated, seated with rod of iron as He calls His elect
The Yeshua we’ve gotten used to is a cross on the neck
Bible stories and allegories as He's drawing a net
Just a Prophet at best - About as soft as it gets
Like the picture depicting Him with bleeding heart on His chest – unfortunate
He’s lowered to nothing more than a portrait
A precious moment ornament that’s made of porcelain
That’s not the Lord I’m warning men, there’s a whole lot more to Him
And none of you will want to go to war with Him!
Prominent leader or a positive teacher?
If you sought the scripture you'll venture that He's God the redeemer (yeah)
David's descendant who's mistaken as timid
Makes His enemies as a footstool as He cradles an infant (whoo!)
Indeed He was innocent but not weak and effeminate
But that's not what they depict in these images
There'll come a time from heaven the Son will shine
Yeshua the Son divine I'm showing His other side
They only focus on the one side
They know that the Son died
But they forget that He rose and He’s sitting on the throne
So we’re bringing ya'll the other side
And He’s ruling, ruling
Winning and He ain’t never losin’, losin’
Enemies He’s forever bruisin’, bruisin’
Ain’t no “pretty please” wanna live - better choose Him
He isn’t standing on a mountain - a statue casting a shadow
He sits upon a saddle with armor ready for battle
Leaves His enemies baffled with power no one can handle
When He's slamming the gavel then every man will skedaddle
He warns the road is narrow yet one that many won’t travel
Many see Him as casual, don’t know their soul is in peril
Demons fear in submission with just a whisper they listen
Unable to go against Him, they’re begging Him to dismiss them
A: to the abyss and a lid can hold them in prison
Or B: into the pigs that will send them over a cliff
Or then C: He’ll give them B so they’ll think they know His decision
But it’s "All the Above" after He’s done with His mission (nah)
That ain’t the half of it - There are numerous passages
Displaying how His wrath can be disastrous
The pack of men who came after Him were baffled when
With no attack He answered back at them and they fell backward then…
In Revelation He’s smashing the grapes of wrath for sin
Dashing ‘em, mashing ‘em, blood splattering (ugh)
He said it’s better you go over a boat
With a heavy stone strapped to a rope, choking your throat
Not talking about drowning rather expounding ‘bout how the river
Can pull you down and dismember you slowly with pounds of pressure
There'll come a time from heaven the Son will shine
Yeshua the Son divine I'm showing the other side
They only focus on the one side
They know that the Son died
But they forget that He rose and He’s sitting on the throne
So we’re bringing ya'll the other side
And He’s ruling, ruling
Winning and He ain’t never losin’, losin’
Enemies He’s forever bruisin’, bruisin’
Ain’t no “pretty please” wanna live - better choose Him
...
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,957
13,615
113
this guy Hazakim said it pretty well, i think:


"We've created a.. Jesus that's.. very sweet and He is, but there's another side…”
“For there is no fear of God in their eyes!!! Nobody fears God anymore!!”
...
(( hit character limit, it's a lot he has to say ;) ))

(Yeah) Don't fear the one that can kill the body
Fear the One that can kill the soul
So many will commit the folly
Thinking that the Son won't deliver blows?
When He comes with His winnowing fork
He'll be cleansing the floor, getting rid of sinners galore
(From His mouth goes the end of a sword
Enemies froze, stiff as a board, Star Wars - Harrison Ford)
Yeah the Lord is no joke, His foes croak
You slow poke, It’s so loc to provoke
The Matchless One so ask the Son for pity
Tellin’ cats to run, the wrath to come is gritty, ain’t pretty
He doesn't delight in the death of the wicked (uh-uh)
But He wants for the sinner to turn and repent onto Him and to learn
Of Him and to yearn for His grace, forgiveness given to sinners
He earned it - not us
Messiah smashed the crushed
Didn’t sin but took the Holy Father’s wrath for us
Atonement had to be made because the Master’s just
It’s that or nothing will save you from disaster’s clutch
For those who want to push His love aside
Now you can’t wonder why – it shouldn’t come as a surprise
When it comes time from heaven the Son will shine
Yeshua the Son divine we’re showing His other side
They only focus on the one side
They know that the Son died
But they forget that He rose and He’s sitting on the throne
So we’re bringing ya'll the other side
And He’s ruling, ruling
Winning and He ain’t never losin’, losin’
Enemies He's forever bruisin’, bruisin’
Ain’t no “pretty please” wanna live - better choose Him
“Because this is the one who has the eyes that burn like fire. He is the lion of Judah, whether we want to accept that or not it doesn’t change the reality of who He is….”
“He destroyed it one time with water and never to do it again but next time He’s coming with fire….”
 
Sep 29, 2019
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170
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this is what Jesus looks like:


Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.
(Revelation 19:15-16)
His delight is in the fear of the Lord,
And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes,
Nor decide by the hearing of His ears;
But with righteousness He shall judge the poor,
And decide with equity for the meek of the earth;
He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.
Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins,
And faithfulness the belt of His waist.
(Isaiah 11:3-5)


striking down the nations and slaying the wicked.
judging the whole earth in righteousness and faithfulness.
crying to the rocks and hills to hide them from the wrath of the Lamb.


do you think He's a murderer too? God is One.
I,m not sure you can take a metaphor from the bible and claim it ligitimates mass murder. Since literal swords don't usually come out of people's mouths then it is clear that it is not literal. The wicked will be slain "by the breath of his lips"......in other words, they will no longer be wicked because they will heed the message of the Prince of Peace.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,957
13,615
113
The wicked will be slain "by the breath of his lips"......in other words, they will no longer be wicked because they will heed the message of the Prince of Peace
they will be dead.

fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell!
(Matthew 10:28)
 
Sep 29, 2019
394
170
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(( hit character limit, it's a lot he has to say ;) ))

(Yeah) Don't fear the one that can kill the body
Fear the One that can kill the soul
So many will commit the folly
Thinking that the Son won't deliver blows?
When He comes with His winnowing fork
He'll be cleansing the floor, getting rid of sinners galore
(From His mouth goes the end of a sword
Enemies froze, stiff as a board, Star Wars - Harrison Ford)
Yeah the Lord is no joke, His foes croak
You slow poke, It’s so loc to provoke
The Matchless One so ask the Son for pity
Tellin’ cats to run, the wrath to come is gritty, ain’t pretty
He doesn't delight in the death of the wicked (uh-uh)
But He wants for the sinner to turn and repent onto Him and to learn
Of Him and to yearn for His grace, forgiveness given to sinners
He earned it - not us
Messiah smashed the crushed
Didn’t sin but took the Holy Father’s wrath for us
Atonement had to be made because the Master’s just
It’s that or nothing will save you from disaster’s clutch
For those who want to push His love aside
Now you can’t wonder why – it shouldn’t come as a surprise
When it comes time from heaven the Son will shine
Yeshua the Son divine we’re showing His other side
They only focus on the one side
They know that the Son died
But they forget that He rose and He’s sitting on the throne
So we’re bringing ya'll the other side
And He’s ruling, ruling
Winning and He ain’t never losin’, losin’
Enemies He's forever bruisin’, bruisin’
Ain’t no “pretty please” wanna live - better choose Him
“Because this is the one who has the eyes that burn like fire. He is the lion of Judah, whether we want to accept that or not it doesn’t change the reality of who He is….”
“He destroyed it one time with water and never to do it again but next time He’s coming with fire….”
I cannot love someone I am scared of.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,957
13,615
113
is this evil?

it is appointed unto men that they shall once die, and after that cometh the judgment
(Hebrews 9:27)