Is unconditional election biblical?
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The problem with many Pharisees and Sadducees resist the Holy Spirit, where if not they too believe what Christ says. The work of the Holy Spirit thru his leading, guidance or conviction has made it possible for one to believe. I see many in the scripture regards to saving faith as 'your' faith.
1 Corinthians 2:4-6 King James Version (KJV)
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
Colossians 1:3-5 King James Version (KJV)
3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
1 Corinthians 2:4-6 King James Version (KJV)
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
Colossians 1:3-5 King James Version (KJV)
3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
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I am not one of the three but the thread made my mind up.
There is a long list of verses that can be used to defend either side as everyone knows (but some seem to ignore). However in my spiritually immature opinion the Scripture seems clear in stating that the atonement was offered to all or the world.
Then I considered the Bible as a whole and there is so much that involves either choice or implied choice (if you are commanded to obey it leaves open the choice to disobey).
I prayed and I reflected. This was what both my mind and my heart told me.
Should God's will be to allow to recover so that I am no longer basically housebound then I will change church.
(And if He doesn't I will continue to be joyous over the time I am at last spending studying His Word).
There is a long list of verses that can be used to defend either side as everyone knows (but some seem to ignore). However in my spiritually immature opinion the Scripture seems clear in stating that the atonement was offered to all or the world.
Then I considered the Bible as a whole and there is so much that involves either choice or implied choice (if you are commanded to obey it leaves open the choice to disobey).
I prayed and I reflected. This was what both my mind and my heart told me.
Should God's will be to allow to recover so that I am no longer basically housebound then I will change church.
(And if He doesn't I will continue to be joyous over the time I am at last spending studying His Word).
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Just because it's "my" faith, doesn't mean it wasn't given to me as a gift from God. I recognize EVERYTHING I have, all my abilities, my family, and ANYTHING else good you can possibly imagine, is a gift from God.
James 1:17 New International Version (NIV)
17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
James 1:17 New International Version (NIV)
17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
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that is what we have been saying
the sin of all mankind has been paid for, but not all accept God's gift
however, it is misunderstanding to conclude that means limited atonement
the Calvinist idea of limited atonement is not 'whosoever will'
anyway, if I am not mistaken, I don't think you are actually a Calvinist?
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Why do you want me to deny the truth? You cannot believe in what you do not know. Why is simple you believe because you understand.
God has said you are a sinner. God has said that the wage of sin is death. You know and understand that if you are a sinner God has you under condemnation or death. You learn that Christ has paid your sin debt for you. You understand that you cannot save your self so you come to Christ and receive forgiveness from Him.
Why some or many refuse to receive is simple. Pride in their own righteousness. The reject God's standard of perfection and count their own righteousness worthy of acceptance. Just like Cain. The illustration of the Pharisees and Sadducees are example of the same.
Grace is never merited and it is harder for those who see themselves as religious or self righteous to reject their pride and humble themselves to Christ. Knowledge, understanding and wisdom.
Tares endeavor to overwhelm the wheat.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
God has said you are a sinner. God has said that the wage of sin is death. You know and understand that if you are a sinner God has you under condemnation or death. You learn that Christ has paid your sin debt for you. You understand that you cannot save your self so you come to Christ and receive forgiveness from Him.
Why some or many refuse to receive is simple. Pride in their own righteousness. The reject God's standard of perfection and count their own righteousness worthy of acceptance. Just like Cain. The illustration of the Pharisees and Sadducees are example of the same.
Grace is never merited and it is harder for those who see themselves as religious or self righteous to reject their pride and humble themselves to Christ. Knowledge, understanding and wisdom.
Tares endeavor to overwhelm the wheat.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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This post answers none of the points or questions I made.
Where does YOUR faith come from? I KNOW it was activated by the hearing of the Word, but that is not WHERE it comes from.
Why can you not grasp that question? I KNOW you believe the Word. You don't need to talk about that anymore. I absolutely believe YOU believe, the Word.
But WHY do you believe? And most importantly, why are you so reluctant to say the faith you have to believe is a gift from God?
You can just flat out answer. There is no trickery. Yes or no. Is your faith a gift from God?
Where does YOUR faith come from? I KNOW it was activated by the hearing of the Word, but that is not WHERE it comes from.
Why can you not grasp that question? I KNOW you believe the Word. You don't need to talk about that anymore. I absolutely believe YOU believe, the Word.
But WHY do you believe? And most importantly, why are you so reluctant to say the faith you have to believe is a gift from God?
You can just flat out answer. There is no trickery. Yes or no. Is your faith a gift from God?
If you are striving to prove that all we have is a gift from God then you are correct. Then you must ascertain why many reject the gifts of God.
My life here is a gift from God. If God gifts faith then does He also gift unbelief. We know God does not gift unbelief any more than He created evil. So what you have is a conundrum, one that is not readily explained in simple terms.
God gifted the world His word that men everywhere could learn of faith. Why do we have faith? Faith as in trust is seen in the creation according to Paul in Romans 1.
Have you chosen a simplified answer to your question? There is great gain in considering the grace of God and not dismissing it with easy answers as Calvin's system of the TULIP endeavors to accomplish.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
My life here is a gift from God. If God gifts faith then does He also gift unbelief. We know God does not gift unbelief any more than He created evil. So what you have is a conundrum, one that is not readily explained in simple terms.
God gifted the world His word that men everywhere could learn of faith. Why do we have faith? Faith as in trust is seen in the creation according to Paul in Romans 1.
Have you chosen a simplified answer to your question? There is great gain in considering the grace of God and not dismissing it with easy answers as Calvin's system of the TULIP endeavors to accomplish.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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I don't adhere to ANY system.
I'm not sure I'm understanding your wording in your 1st sentence. I THINK you are finally saying that YOUR faith is a gift from God. Scripture says your gift is irrevocable.
I have NO conundrum because I am content in letting God be sovereign, and unlike Job's friends, assigning motives and human logic to what seems to be a paradox. (free will vs. predestination) I am content to do and be what God called me to do and be. Which is to love my neighbor as myself, and to proclaim the Gospel. It is not my place to question how God's sovereignty works.
I, do not get to pick and choose who is the recipient of Christ's love through me or who hears the Gospel.
But I do not think ALL are gifted with faith:
2 Thessalonians 3:2 New King James Version (NKJV)
2 and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men; for not all have faith.
I'm not sure I'm understanding your wording in your 1st sentence. I THINK you are finally saying that YOUR faith is a gift from God. Scripture says your gift is irrevocable.
I have NO conundrum because I am content in letting God be sovereign, and unlike Job's friends, assigning motives and human logic to what seems to be a paradox. (free will vs. predestination) I am content to do and be what God called me to do and be. Which is to love my neighbor as myself, and to proclaim the Gospel. It is not my place to question how God's sovereignty works.
I, do not get to pick and choose who is the recipient of Christ's love through me or who hears the Gospel.
But I do not think ALL are gifted with faith:
2 Thessalonians 3:2 New King James Version (NKJV)
2 and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men; for not all have faith.
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Your position is inconsistent with scripture. Not all have saving faith but all have faith.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
You did not have a choice to come into this world and you have little choice of when you exit this world. You do have a choice in where you spend your eternity.
You have a testimony of believing in Christ and I this I do rejoice. To say you had no but choice to believe is not entirely accurate. You were not forced to believe. By your standard of sovereignty God could have done it but His word tells us that is not how God has chosen to save men. He saves them through the foolishness of preaching.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
You did not have a choice to come into this world and you have little choice of when you exit this world. You do have a choice in where you spend your eternity.
You have a testimony of believing in Christ and I this I do rejoice. To say you had no but choice to believe is not entirely accurate. You were not forced to believe. By your standard of sovereignty God could have done it but His word tells us that is not how God has chosen to save men. He saves them through the foolishness of preaching.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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I'm illustrating a comparison between 2 Thess 3:2 and Heb 11:1. All men have faith but the object of the faith is the controlling factor. You say God gifts faith and in some sense that can be true. Scripture teaches that saving faith comes through the word of God. It is available to all and great are the rewards for those who find it.
I cannot tell you why you were born into this world and I cannot tell you when you will die. I can tell you what God has said in His word. I cannot make you believe it. I can tell you of the consequences of your choice. No man can escape the responsibility to make the choice of believing or not believing.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I cannot tell you why you were born into this world and I cannot tell you when you will die. I can tell you what God has said in His word. I cannot make you believe it. I can tell you of the consequences of your choice. No man can escape the responsibility to make the choice of believing or not believing.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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Where in Hebrews 11 does it say everybody has faith? It specifically says in Thessalonians that not all have faith.
Speaking of birth. YOU had ZERO say in your physical conception and birth. You had NO free will in it at all. So why would you think you had any say on your Spiritual birth? Especially since God tells us in John 1:12-13 it was by NO MAN'S WILL did anyone decide to be His child. It was by HIS Will alone.
Speaking of birth. YOU had ZERO say in your physical conception and birth. You had NO free will in it at all. So why would you think you had any say on your Spiritual birth? Especially since God tells us in John 1:12-13 it was by NO MAN'S WILL did anyone decide to be His child. It was by HIS Will alone.
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It is by His will that those who believe will be saved. All men have faith just many do not have saving faith. All men believe in something not many believe in Jesus Christ. Many are called few are chosen. Few choose Christ in spite of the evidence that surrounds them.
I could not more will my physical birth than I can will my Spiritual birth. I receive both by the mercy of God. Created by Him and for His pleasure and glory.
Fof the cause of Christ
Roger
I could not more will my physical birth than I can will my Spiritual birth. I receive both by the mercy of God. Created by Him and for His pleasure and glory.
Fof the cause of Christ
Roger
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