If a Person Accepts Jesus is the Savior,

[presidente]

I just mentioned that I believe that type of "power display" will occur again but he does not display this except for a very particular purpose.

I'm a bit aghast that you somehow took what I said to mean that I think nothing that I quoted from you (above) occurred in the physical sense

Moving mount Everest would be a cataclysmic event. Don't you think that such events (such as large hailstones and so forth) would be best left in the hands of the Lord? I do.

I think when he is talking about moving mountains he is referring to obstacles unseen primarily.

The fig tree also factors in. As well as walking on water. The why of these matter. NOTHING he did was purposeless.

No offense. I haven't posted in a while and I am not familiar with your perspective. I was just a bit confused by the wording.

There is an account of a one-eyed Egyptian Christian commanding a mountain in Egypt to move with bishop and the ruler present and it happened. In the story/tradition, if recall correctly, the Calif (or other ruler) said that he would kill all of the Christians if their patriarch did not cause a mountain to move in accordance with the words of Jesus. Simon the Cobbler maybe.

There was an actual literal fig tree that withered in one of the gospel accounts. I don't think of faith as something happening in opposition to God's will, opposed to His word. We do see the apostles and others frequently laying hands on people and commanding healing in the gospels, and a promise of healing through the elders in James.

 

[Mii]

No offense. I haven't posted in a while and I am not familiar with your perspective. I was just a bit confused by the wording.

I can be a bit vague. A lot of what I "see" is "fuzzy"...it is possible that this is the same thing as "seeing through a mirror dimly" and the following verse. I appreciate the Lord putting that in there and I use that as a sort of hopefulness when I get frustrated or confused or feel as though I might fall into error by saying anything or doing anything. You can see! Albeit dimly. 1 Cor 13:12 btw.

The issue I have with the mirror is that a mirror presents a backward image that must be realigned. It also only represents what can physically be observed. It presents a perspective that cannot be gained in any other way other than similar reversing in pools for example. It is not what is...merely a reflection of what is. An image if you will...I take that analogy pretty far sometimes.

So to me it is more functional to just think of it as static.


There are things I don't feel led to post on the Internet. All I can say is that timing is critical for certain things...particularly the miraculous.


Oh btw, as far as the story you related. I don't think you can back the Lord into a corner. That account looks like prove it or die and I find the context disturbing. It suggests that one man was able to "prove God" to another, under duress no less.

I think if you think about it you can see many issues with it. It can go into some rather dark territory, so I consider it false.

 

[presidente]

I can be a bit vague. A lot of what I "see" is "fuzzy"...it is possible that this is the same thing as "seeing through a mirror dimly" and the following verse. I appreciate the Lord putting that in there and I use that as a sort of hopefulness when I get frustrated or confused or feel as though I might fall into error by saying anything or doing anything. You can see! Albeit dimly. 1 Cor 13:12 btw.

The issue I have with the mirror is that a mirror presents a backward image that must be realigned. It also only represents what can physically be observed. It presents a perspective that cannot be gained in any other way other than similar reversing in pools for example. It is not what is...merely a reflection of what is. An image if you will...I take that analogy pretty far sometimes.

So to me it is more functional to just think of it as static.


There are things I don't feel led to post on the Internet. All I can say is that timing is critical for certain things...particularly the miraculous.


Oh btw, as far as the story you related. I don't think you can back the Lord into a corner. That account looks like prove it or die and I find the context disturbing. It suggests that one man was able to "prove God" to another, under duress no less.

I think if you think about it you can see many issues with it. It can go into some rather dark territory, so I consider it false.

I can't say it definitely happened. But I would be careful about saying it did not either. I'd actually like to see a report of geological analysis of core samples from the base of the mountain, which I believe was supposed to be a specific location. The story is similar to the story of Elijah except Elijah proposed the idea. But also Daniel explaining the dream under duress. Think about that. Daniel offered to interpret the dream when his life was in threatened in a remotely similar situation.

I also think about one of the stories I heard from Europe, and I can't remember who it was, St. so and so, maybe Boniface, who was accepted a challenge to stand where an oak dedicated to a false god was predicted to fall. The story goes it fell the opposite direction and crushed his persecutors.

I also think about Gregory who tradition says was imprisoned in Armenia in a pit for years and thought to be dead. A widow was said to have dropped food down-- maybe for years. The king probably did not like his missionary activities, but especially did not like him when he discovered Gregory's father was a part of the assassination attempt against his own father. If I remember the story right, Gregory cast a demon out of the king after he was demonized. The king was converted and became an ally to Gregory in converting Armenia. They stomped out remnants of paganism to the extent that historians and archeologists know little about Armenian paganism.

 

[Chester]

Does this person also have to believe Jesus?

I have no way of answering your question because your terms are unclear. You actually say three different things:

(1) Accepting Jesus as Saviour
(2) Believing in Jesus
(3) Believing Jesus' doctrine

Which of these is necessary to be saved? It will depend how you define each.

For myself and my understanding:
(1) Accepting Jesus as Saviour means that I acknowledge that He died and rose again as a sacrifice for all manking. This knowledge by itself does not save.

(2) Believing in Jesus - this is what saves - we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ

(3) Believing Jesus doctrine - To me this means that I believe that what Jesus taught is true and right - this by itself will not save either.

Believing Jesus and believing Jesus' doctrine is not the same thing

 

[JadenS]

I have no way of answering your question because your terms are unclear. You actually say three different things:

(1) Accepting Jesus as Saviour
(2) Believing in Jesus
(3) Believing Jesus' doctrine

Which of these is necessary to be saved? It will depend how you define each.

For myself and my understanding:
(1) Accepting Jesus as Saviour means that I acknowledge that He died and rose again as a sacrifice for all manking. This knowledge by itself does not save.

(2) Believing in Jesus - this is what saves - we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ

(3) Believing Jesus doctrine - To me this means that I believe that what Jesus taught is true and right - this by itself will not save either.

Believing Jesus and believing Jesus' doctrine is not the same thing

It is impossible to believe Jesus without believing His doctrine.

James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.

 

[Chester]

It is impossible to believe Jesus without believing His doctrine.

James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.

As I said above it depends what you mean by your words . . .

I think that there are believers in Christ who will make it to heaven, but who dismiss and do not believe and practice many of the things Jesus taught.

But is that a problem? Yes! We should believe and practice all that Jesus taught.

 

[presidente]

I think that there are believers in Christ who will make it to heaven,
.

My hope is the resurrection of the dead and the return of Christ.

 

[notuptome]

My hope is the resurrection of the dead and the return of Christ.

Which resurrection and which return?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[presidente]

Which resurrection and which return?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The rapture/resurrection event at Christ's parousia that Paul wrote of I Thessalonians.

 

[notuptome]

The rapture/resurrection event at Christ's parousia that Paul wrote of I Thessalonians.

Scripture describes more than just Christs return for the church and resurrecting believers unto eternal life. Just to say precision in what we say is important.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[know1]

I have a picture of what you are saying and I don't think you and @calibob are saying different things. I am quite correct in believing that you meditate on what the will of the father is before you pray yes? As it lines up with scripture...from your own personal understanding at the time as well as confirmation and what I call "agreement" within the body that seems to hum as a type of accountability within our own personal walk?

^that last statement it's like the body holds me accountable as a collective when I get too personally motivated.


and that you are NOT asserting a "million dollar mansion" model that was already mentioned in the thread?

Do you think it's fair to assert that "whims" are not what the mountain verse is speaking of?

I would say, in part, the condition of one's heart has a part to play in the answer.
I don't know what so many people are worried about.
Do you think, if my motives or thoughts are evil, wrong, or corrupt, God is incapable of denying me or anyone else, for that matter, their request?
I think, NOT.
Jas 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
God is not stupid.
If there is a sinful intent in the heart of the one making the request, God will not hear that person's prayer. And since He can't hear them, their prayer will go unanswered, like so many who add to such promises to make it fit their denomination's doctrines of why God says, no, or why they didn't get what they asked for.
To me, the promises speak for themselves.
"What things soever...", and "Whatsoever you desire..." means just that.
No, it is not on a whim, and neither is it a one time thing, such as, saying or praying it one time and bam, it's done.
No, it is sticking with it, and not letting it go.
Have you ever play that water game at the fair where you had to aim the water pistol at a hole to make the object rise? The one who kept the water in the hole the longest, wins.
That is what we have to do with these promise.
You pray God's promises, reminding Him of His word, over and over again, putting your all in it.
And after a few hours, days, or weeks, during the interim period of fighting the good fight of faith, you receive the promise.
By the way, verse 23 in Mark 11 has to do with speaking TO, AT, or ABOUT something or a situation.
Verse 24 has to do with asking.
But even as God said in Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:, and in Pro 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof, He has done the same in verse 23.
Christians, curse themselves into having sicknesses, without the devil's help, by their own tongue or what comes out of their own mouths.
The power of death and life in the tongue is not just a law for the Jews, it is a law for the believers as well. Just like the law of sowing and reaping.
People think these promise are just for the mansions and money, but most unwittingly curse their own lives and that of their family with bad things.

 

[know1]

Let me know when God approves of rearranging his planet. Or the next time you plan to move a mountian? Pray me up a ticket to see it. I will volunteer to take the video.

Or do you misunderstand mustard seed faith? (which you omitted) If we are completely willing and able to let go of life as we know it and become born again solely by trusting that God has a futile and nurturing place for us to grow. Our faith will be unstoppable!

Next time you plan to move a mountian, let us know please.

How could I have omitted something that was never there in the first place?
Read it for yourself. It is a direct quote.
I like, copied and pasted it.
Stop adding to scripture what isn't already there.
Again, you are trying to rewrite scripture to say what you want it to say instead of building off what is already written.
And why would I be so stupid to call someone who doubts the small stuff done in my life?
One does not call the doubters and mockers to see a miracle, but the believers.
We are told not to cast our pearls before the swine, so neither would I give you testimonies of God's work in my life.
One discerns scripture by the spirit they have in them.
We obviously do not have the same spirit.
You have yet to even tell me what faith is or how it works, much less, mustard seed faith.
We are to grow in the knowledge of Jesus, and in so doing, grow in faith, but you have regressed by mocking those who live by faith.
If you want to believe you have no say in the outcome of your prayers, that is fine for all your prayer to go unanswered, but as for me, according to my understanding of scripture and experiences, I have a choice of, and a say in, what I get or refuse to have.
It has worked for me many time over, and from what I have read, these signs follow the believers, not the doubters.

 

[presidente]

Scripture describes more than just Christs return for the church and resurrecting believers unto eternal life. Just to say precision in what we say is important.

I don't see multiple second comings in the Bible.

 

[know1]

The phrase 'Personal Savior' is not found in scripture. And 99% of the time the phrase is used without such an explanation (in my experience), adding a layer of unnecessary verbage that distracts and confuses unbelievers. There are people who treat the phrase as if it should be in the Bible, and as if people aren't saved unless they through the word 'personal' in front of Savior.

My car is my personal property. If you use a slim jim and open the door and drive it around, you can be arrested. But me believing in Jesus does not keep you from believing in Jesus.

There are many words not written in scripture, but that doesn't mean it was never inferred.
John, in chapter 1, verse 1 says, "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God..."
John never mentions Jesus by name, but it is inferring to Jesus.
This is part of simple discernment of scripture.
In order for one to receive their healing for themselves, the MUST receive the promises concerning healing for themselves, PERSONALLY.
Otherwise, healing will never come.
In like manner, if you don't receive Jesus personally, then you do not have Jesus in your heart, which translates to... you are not born again.
For it is written, "He who has the Son has life, and he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."

Mat 10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Mat 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

It is not possible for Jesus to be in you, if you fail to receive Him for yourself, personally.
No, it is not written that way specifically, but we are no longer children, unable to decipher and understand what is being said.
With a little thought, and very little discernment, it is easy to see, we receiving Jesus personally, by accepting the word of God or His promises, by faith. For we are born again BY and THROUGH the word of God.

 

[presidente]

It is not possible for Jesus to be in you, if you fail to receive Him for yourself, personally.
No, it is not written that way specifically, but we are no longer children, unable to decipher and understand what is being said.

It is not about being an adult. Adult unbeliever aren't going to understand 'Personal Savior' without some context. But many American evangelicals--especially 20 or 30 years ago before 'not a religion, but a personal relationship' became the new saying--use the phrase without explanation.

But why add the extra verbage to the gospel, wording that must sound strange to unbelievers.

 

[iamsoandso]

Jesus is the savior...don't equal...don't believe in Jesus,,,

 

[know1]

@know1 I presume that most here do not view that scripture as physical. If indeed it is permissible for us to effect the physically miraculous I am undecided. I base this off the false signs and wonders of the enemy and the fact that many in the world would love to see such things as they are consistently portrayed in fantasy films, a lot of that has to do with grave error.

Then of course you do have that power being displayed by individuals in revelation but that's the only instance as far as "a witness" in that fashion. So I certainly believe that it can and will occur, but I also believe that it is timing based and only for a particular purpose...

Who cares what most think or say?
This walk is not about what people think, say, or even what they have experienced. It's about following the leading of God's Spirit, whether that be in our daily walk or receiving revelation knowledge.
And yes, that scripture and many others are both for and effect the physical or natural world, for the kingdom of heaven RULES the kingdom of man, or the natural world.
I would not have received my many answered prayers, healings, and a few deliverances, if it didn't affect the natural world.
I have both commanded and rejected situations, only to watch them follow the words of faith that came out my mouth.
Please don't tell me you believe as the stupid Pharisees and Sadducee did, saying that which was done by Jesus was done by the prince of devils? For that is the unpardonable sin.
Christian or no Christian, your toast, if that is what you are saying.
It is a very foolish thing to say about those who walk by faith and not by sight, that they live in error, and are doing signs and wonders by the enemy.
Specifically, what kind of signs and wonders are you talking about?
The way I read it, the bible says signs follow the believers. Maybe that is why you don't see any.

 

[know1]

It is not about being an adult. Adult unbeliever aren't going to understand 'Personal Savior' without some context. But many American evangelicals--especially 20 or 30 years ago before 'not a religion, but a personal relationship' became the new saying--use the phrase without explanation.

But why add the extra verbage to the gospel, wording that must sound strange to unbelievers.

It's not adding to anything, it's deciphering, discerning, and understanding what is being said, or rather, what is written.
Stop looking at history, look at what is written and seek God for the correct understanding of His word.
Seek the truth.

 

[calibob]

How could I have omitted something that was never there in the first place?
Read it for yourself. It is a direct quote.
I like, copied and pasted it.
Stop adding to scripture what isn't already there.
Again, you are trying to rewrite scripture to say what you want it to say instead of building off what is already written.
And why would I be so stupid to call someone who doubts the small stuff done in my life?
One does not call the doubters and mockers to see a miracle, but the believers.
We are told not to cast our pearls before the swine, so neither would I give you testimonies of God's work in my life.
One discerns scripture by the spirit they have in them.
We obviously do not have the same spirit.
You have yet to even tell me what faith is or how it works, much less, mustard seed faith.
We are to grow in the knowledge of Jesus, and in so doing, grow in faith, but you have regressed by mocking those who live by faith.
If you want to believe you have no say in the outcome of your prayers, that is fine for all your prayer to go unanswered, but as for me, according to my understanding of scripture and experiences, I have a choice of, and a say in, what I get or refuse to have.
It has worked for me many time over, and from what I have read, these signs follow the believers, not the doubters.

I'm sorry I thought you were quoting Matthew.

Matthew 17:20 New International Version (NIV)

20 He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”

It's not the size of the mustard see. They are tiny but the amount of faith required to let go of life as we know it and become born again completely helpless. That's the measure of faith required. We most surrender to Gods will and give up our own will in the process. We are the vessels we are not the potter. Have you ever seen a mustard seed? It's volume of faith is not the measure. The percentage of faith is.

 

[calibob]

@know1 I only had 5 min to edit so I added the top line correction after I posted. But what I said about Matthew 17:20 is till true. I thought you were quoting from the mustard seed faith teaching. I was mistaken it was from the Curse on the fig tree. My mistake.