Is unconditional election biblical?

[fredoheaven]

Since God offers grace TO ALL, it is arrogant to teach that He offers grace to an elect few. Since Christ died for all, grace, pardon, and salvation are offered to all without exception. That's the meaning of "WHOSOEVER".

Yep sir...

1. am happy today, and the sun shines bright,
   The clouds have been rolled away;
   For the Savior said, whosoever will
   May come with Him to stay.
   • Refrain:
     “Whosoever” surely meaneth me,
     Surely meaneth me, oh, surely meaneth me;
     “Whosoever” surely meaneth me,
     “Whosoever” meaneth me.
2. All my hopes have been raised, oh, His Name be praised,
   His glory has filled my soul;
   I’ve been lifted up, and from sin set free,
   His blood has made me whole.
3. Oh, what wonderful love, oh, what grace divine,
   That Jesus should die for me;
   I was lost in sin, for the world I pined,
   But now I am set free.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Eph 5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.


The analogy has nothing to do with the ‘Limited Atonement’ that Christ saves his own body, that he gave himself of it in the sense he only atones them. Why there is a need to atone if it was already a part of the body? What did Paul mean when he used the term “save”? By the context, this saving and giving of himself are to feed and to take care of his body, the church. This is not about the pre-salvation but a rather post-salvation experience.

But He is the savior of the body. What is His body? The church. He takes of of Hos body, the church.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

God does not offer His grace, He gives it. He doesn’t dangle it out like the Golden ring on a merry-go-round.

Genesis 6:1 Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” [/b]4[/b] The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

5Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

Moses shows us how wicked the ppl had gotten during the days of Noah. God saw the wickedness going on, the wickedness in ppl’s hearts. It was so bad that He decided to destroy them from His presence. Notice vs 8, ”But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.” Noah was no better than those who were wiped out in the flood. Also notice it didn’t say the LORD offered His favor(grace) to Noah(and also 7 others in Noah’s family) but Noah FOUND(again, not offered) favor in the eyes of the LORD.

 

[John146]

God does not offer His grace, He gives it. He doesn’t dangle it out like the Golden ring on a merry-go-round.

Genesis 6:1 Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” [/b]4[/b] The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

5Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

Moses shows us how wicked the ppl had gotten during the days of Noah. God saw the wickedness going on, the wickedness in ppl’s hearts. It was so bad that He decided to destroy them from His presence. Notice vs 8, ”But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.” Noah was no better than those who were wiped out in the flood. Also notice it didn’t say the LORD offered His favor(grace) to Noah(and also 7 others in Noah’s family) but Noah FOUND(again, not offered) in the eyes of the LORD.

Do you know why Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Do you know why Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord?

It wasn’t because he was special, that’s for sure. Favor is grace, and it’s unmerited in the Lord’s sight. If he found favor because of who and/or what he did, then it ceases to be favor(grace).

 

[notuptome]

So there is no penalty for sin? Everyone is safe?

Do you really believe that?

I stated that the blood of Christ has made atonement for sin and satisfied Gods demand for satisfaction according to the law. You have added to what I said to create a false narrative.

Everyone who submits their will to the will of God is saved. Those who resist God remain condemned. Man was made a little lower than God and must submit his will to the Father to have forgiveness of his sin. God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Gods plan to redeem sinful men is believe and receive. Hear His word.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Do you know why Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord?

Makes you wonder if God made the offer to someone else before He came to Noah. How about Abraham? Perhaps God will reveal to us how many times God offered and was rejected before coming to one who would receive.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Makes you wonder if God made the offer to someone else before He came to Noah. How about Abraham? Perhaps God will reveal to us how many times God offered and was rejected before coming to one who would receive.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

This reeks of Molinism.

 

[Grandpa]

Yap no debate...yea I know this guy when we were once a member of defunct 'KJV-only' Bible forums. Good one...

Universalism is considered heresy.

Are you all Universalists?

Or do you just not understand the implications of what you THINK the bible is saying?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Universalism is considered heresy.

Are you all Universalists?

Or do you just not understand the implications of what you THINK the bible is saying?

If the atonement is universal, so is the salvation. No one atoned for will die lost.

 

[John146]

It wasn’t because he was special, that’s for sure. Favor is grace, and it’s unmerited in the Lord’s sight. If he found favor because of who and/or what he did, then it ceases to be favor(grace).

Noah found grace because his generations were perfect and had not been corrupted by the sons of God. The promised seed line of Genesis 3:15 was being carried out through chapter 5 up to Noah.

 

[Grandpa]

I stated that the blood of Christ has made atonement for sin and satisfied Gods demand for satisfaction according to the law. You have added to what I said to create a false narrative.

Everyone who submits their will to the will of God is saved. Those who resist God remain condemned. Man was made a little lower than God and must submit his will to the Father to have forgiveness of his sin. God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Gods plan to redeem sinful men is believe and receive. Hear His word.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

No. I am not creating a false narrative. I am showing YOU the implications of what you are saying and how that is OBVIOUSLY against the rest of scripture.


The Blood of Christ has made Atonement for Sin ONLY for those who believe.

Those who are unbelievers remain condemned, just as you said.


If Christs Atonement were applied to ALL Men then No one COULD BE condemned. There would be nothing to condemn them with or for.


Do you see what I am trying to explain? I'm not trying to be mean. I'm trying to be obvious.

 

[John146]

Universalism is considered heresy.

Are you all Universalists?

Or do you just not understand the implications of what you THINK the bible is saying?

Through the blood of the cross, we were bought.

1 Corinthians 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

These false teachers who deny the Lord were bought with the blood but are lost.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

 

[notuptome]

This reeks of Molinism.

Careful its a trap. We cannot know what God has not revealed in His word. God will reveal these things to us in heaven. The question goes to the argument that Gods will cannot be resisted by men. We only have record in Gods word of those who received Gods word and went forth in faith.

Why did Abraham go forth to offer his son Isaac? Why did Abraham leave his people and go out at Gods command? Man has choices everyday.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Grandpa]

If the atonement is universal, so is the salvation. No one atoned for will die lost.

Do they not understand this?

Why is it so difficult?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Do they not understand this?

Why is it so difficult?

When we say the atonement is limited, then the number of ppl saved is limited as well. If the blood shed upon the cross was for all, then all would be saved. They honestly believe God is obligated to ‘try’ to save everybody, so that way when they reject Him, He gets off the hook.

 

[notuptome]

No. I am not creating a false narrative. I am showing YOU the implications of what you are saying and how that is OBVIOUSLY against the rest of scripture.


The Blood of Christ has made Atonement for Sin ONLY for those who believe.

Those who are unbelievers remain condemned, just as you said.


If Christs Atonement were applied to ALL Men then No one COULD BE condemned. There would be nothing to condemn them with or for.


Do you see what I am trying to explain? I'm not trying to be mean. I'm trying to be obvious.

I see you as the one who is in opposition to scripture and the character of God.

There is a difference between sufficiency and efficacious .

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Do they not understand this?

Why is it so difficult?

It was for me until He opened my eyes to His sovereignty.

 

[Grandpa]

Through the blood of the cross, we were bought.

1 Corinthians 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

These false teachers who deny the Lord were bought with the blood but are lost.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Ok. What does that change?

You think the blood of Christ is not good enough to save the Whole World and Atone for EVERY sin?

Of course it is.


But it is not applied to unbelievers.


It is also not applied and then later on un-applied. If that is what you are also implying.

 

[Grandpa]

I see you as the one who is in opposition to scripture and the character of God.

There is a difference between sufficiency and efficacious .

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I totally agree with the difference between sufficiency and efficaciousness.

The Lord Jesus sacrifice was sufficient for the Whole World.

That's what is meant by "whosoever" and the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. He IS Sufficient, to say the least.


But the efficacy of His Sacrifice is only for believers.