Is unconditional election biblical?

[John146]

He decreed everything, from beginning to end, either through his permissive will or through causing it to happen.

And, he knows all things.

The end will be to his glory.

God is the author of sin...there you go folks. That’s not the God of the Bible.

All the rape, pornography, child molesting, murders, etc..is the will of God at work.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

God is the author of sin...there you go folks. That’s not the God of the Bible.

They say this is not the case in their confessions of faith. They say God is NOT the author of sin. To us looking at it from outside the Reformed bubble (I use the word bubble with no desire to disrespect) we see it as God being the author of sin if He decrees everything, but since they explicitly deny this very thing in their confessions, we (me, you and everyone else) should refrain from accusing the Reformed brethren for believing this, knowing they explicitly deny God is the author of sin. A fair representation and a cool head brings a much more fruitful discussion on both sides

I have no issue with anyone being Reformed, and I hope @UnitedWithChrist or no one else has no problems with me being un-Reformed (lol) and I hope we can still co-exist and work toward righteousness and preaching faith and repentance.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

God is the author of sin...there you go folks. That’s not the God of the Bible.

All the rape, pornography, child molesting, murders, etc..is the will of God at work.

In one sense, yes.

He could have failed to create mankind, or destroyed all mankind and none of those things would have existed.

In another sense, no.

God is not the author of sin. He never caused any of those things, other than allowing the humans to exist who performed the acts. However, he knew they would happen due to Adam's sin, and the resulting evil of all mankind (some of which free willers deny).

And the end of all things is greater than if he had never created mankind. In fact, God uses suffering to conform his elect into the image of Christ.

To get away from these conclusions, the dummy-god of open theism must be adopted. A god who does not know the end from the beginning, and a god who does not have exhaustive foreknowledge. Much like the gods of stone and wood that the pagans worshipped.

I trust in a Sovereign Lord who knows all things, is omnipotent, and knows what he's doing. I don't have to dumb him down to rationalize the things you mentioned in my mind, though.

God allows suffering to achieve a higher purpose, and I trust in Him without knowing the details.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

Deuteronomy 29:29
Secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those that are revealed belong to us and our descendants forever, so that we might obey all the words of this law.

Ecclesiastes 12:13
The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

They say this is not the case in their confessions of faith. They say God is NOT the author of sin. To us looking at it from outside the Reformed bubble (I use the word bubble with no desire to disrespect) we see it as God being the author of sin if He decrees everything, but since they explicitly deny this very thing in their confessions, we (me, you and everyone else) should refrain from accusing the Reformed brethren for believing this, knowing they explicitly deny God is the author of sin. A fair representation and a cool head brings a much more fruitful discussion on both sides

I have no issue with anyone being Reformed, and I hope @UnitedWithChrist or no one else has no problems with me being un-Reformed (lol) and I hope we can still co-exist and work toward righteousness and preaching faith and repentance.

I don't have issues with non-Reformed people but I have strong issues with anti-Reformed people.

Many on this forum are anti-Reformed, not simply non-Reformed.

And, they practice gross slander in order to perpetuate their hatred toward Reformed people.

By the way, the guy who heads a ministry I am involved with is charismatic, and he knows my position. When he talks to me, I listen to what he has to say. Most of it, I reject as it is not correct. Parts of it show insight.

I separate God's decree out as active versus permissive. God actively decrees certain things, and causes them to happen. God passively decrees other things, by allowing them to occur. In either case, no events occur outside of his sovereign will.

He doesn't have to cause evil. Evil people do evil. Additionally, he actually RESTRAINS evil. We see in Romans 1 that he lets loose his restraint and actually removes this restraining grace to demonstrate how bad man really is.

By the way, I doubt if free-willers would acknowledge that God restrains evil, as that is a violation of their free-will theism. However, Romans 1 indicates clearly, and states three times, that God gave them over to depraved states of mind to do evil acts.

God removes his restraining grace, and evil people do evil things. If he removed this restraining grace completely, I don't think that anyone would deny total depravity or radical corruption. They would clearly see it.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I would caution others against accepting re-definition of phrases and words.

For instance, I clearly stated what unconditional election was when I initiated the thread. These are the historical definitions and are not open to re-definition. I defined the historical differences between free-willer theology and Reformed theology clearly.

We can't have intelligent conversations when we are using phrases or words, and defining them in a different manner than they have historically been defined. You might come up with a third view, though, and label it in a different way. It really wouldn't be involved in the same discussion, though, because the ultimate question is whether God elects individuals (the Reformed view),

or whether they elect themselves (the free-willer view), which in reality means God doesn't elect whatsoever.

One of the strongest sets of verses that proves otherwise is 1 Cor 1:26ff which says that God chooses, and that the characteristics of those he chooses is that not many are wise, rich, noble, strong, etcetera. In other words, he chooses people with negative characteristics, worldy speaking, in order to confound this world and to display his power more clearly in weak vessels.

I know this is true..therefore all free-willer theologies are cast into the garbage bin in my mind.

Who can elect themselves,that's why It Is the way you say things that are confusing.I said they (mankind) has a condition to meet before they will be the elect and that condition Is the choice to choose GOD then we become GODs workmanship created In CHRIST unto good works..JESUS IS the VINE and we are the branches receiving sustenance from the VINE and displaying spiritual fruit.

Like Paul said,by the mercies of GOD present your bodies a living sacrifice meaning your bodies will show what GOD wants,nevertheless GOD Is unconditional man Is conditional.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Who can elect themselves,that's why It Is the way you say things that are confusing.I said they (mankind) has a condition to meet before they will be the elect and that condition Is the choice to choose GOD then we become GODs workmanship created In CHRIST unto good works..JESUS IS the VINE and we are the branches receiving sustenance from the VINE and displaying spiritual fruit.

Like Paul said,by the mercies of GOD present your bodies a living sacrifice meaning your bodies will show what GOD wants,nevertheless GOD Is unconditional man Is conditional.

1. The Father elects individuals from the foundation of the world.
2. The Father has given these individuals to the Son.
3. The Son earned the salvation of the elect at the Cross, and all things pertaining to it are given to Him.
4. The Holy Spirit applies these things to the elect. The first application is the regeneration of their Spirit. Their stony heart, which
cannot exercise faith and repentance, is replaced by a heart of flesh, that can exercise faith and repentance.
5. This results in faith, repentance, justification, sonship, and an eternal inheritance.
6. Ultimately, it results in glorification.

The free-willer view is different. They believe that the person dredges up faith and repentance from their stony heart. As a result, they are regenerated, receiving a heart of flesh that wants to please and love God.

So, their claim is that a fallen, unregenerate man can dredge up faith and repentance from a stony, unregenerate heart. This is a defective theology.

I am not sure where you are misunderstanding. Of course the believer is united with Christ and produces fruit. This is part of what is applied by the Holy Spirit at regeneration, which leads to faith and repentance.

The problem is that free-willers have caused Christians to think in a backwards manner. Instead of glorifying God for every aspect of their salvation, they think their free-will decision of faith and repentance, generated from a stony heart, caused them to be regenerated. The regeneration is the cause of their faith and repentance, not vice versa. And their stony heart is unable to produce faith and repentance like they claim it is.

 

[John146]

Who can elect themselves,that's why It Is the way you say things that are confusing.I said they (mankind) has a condition to meet before they will be the elect and that condition Is the choice to choose GOD then we become GODs workmanship created In CHRIST unto good works..JESUS IS the VINE and we are the branches receiving sustenance from the VINE and displaying spiritual fruit.

Like Paul said,by the mercies of GOD present your bodies a living sacrifice meaning your bodies will show what GOD wants,nevertheless GOD Is unconditional man Is conditional.

Somehow they were in Christ before the foundation of the world (even though there was no body yet), fell out of Christ and into Adam, then back into Christ upon belief.

If God chose people from the foundation of the world, then there was never a time that God’s wrath was upon them nor were they ever enemies of God.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Somehow they were in Christ before the foundation of the world (even though there was no body yet), fell out of Christ and into Adam, then back into Christ upon belief.

If God chose people from the foundation of the world, then there was never a time that God’s wrath was upon them nor were they ever enemies of God.

Wrong. Election is being marked for salvation. They are written in the Lamb's book of life at that point.

The work of Christ applied the benefits of Christ's atonement at a specific point of time, though.

Election does not mean salvation. Election means being marked out for salvation. The elect are marked out for salvation at the foundation of the world. It isn't applied until the Holy Spirit applies it. This application will ultimately result in salvation.

And all are in Adam by virtue of physical birth, just like all believers are in Christ by virtue of their spiritual birth. They enter into union with Christ when they are regenerated.

 

[John146]

Wrong. Election is being marked for salvation. They are written in the Lamb's book of life at that point.

The work of Christ applied the benefits of Christ's atonement at a specific point of time, though.

Election does not mean salvation. Election means being marked out for salvation. The elect are marked out for salvation at the foundation of the world. It isn't applied until the Holy Spirit applies it. This application will ultimately result in salvation.

And all are in Adam by virtue of physical birth, just like all believers are in Christ by virtue of their spiritual birth. They enter into union with Christ when they are regenerated.

If you were marked for salvation before the foundation of the world, then there was never a time when you were an enemy of God.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

1. The Father elects individuals from the foundation of the world.
2. The Father has given these individuals to the Son.
3. The Son earned the salvation of the elect at the Cross, and all things pertaining to it are given to Him.
4. The Holy Spirit applies these things to the elect. The first application is the regeneration of their Spirit. Their stony heart, which
cannot exercise faith and repentance, is replaced by a heart of flesh, that can exercise faith and repentance.
5. This results in faith, repentance, justification, sonship, and an eternal inheritance.
6. Ultimately, it results in glorification.

The free-willer view is different. They believe that the person dredges up faith and repentance from their stony heart. As a result, they are regenerated, receiving a heart of flesh that wants to please and love God.

So, their claim is that a fallen, unregenerate man can dredge up faith and repentance from a stony, unregenerate heart. This is a defective theology.

I am not sure where you are misunderstanding. Of course the believer is united with Christ and produces fruit. This is part of what is applied by the Holy Spirit at regeneration, which leads to faith and repentance.

The problem is that free-willers have caused Christians to think in a backwards manner. Instead of glorifying God for every aspect of their salvation, they think their free-will decision of faith and repentance, generated from a stony heart, caused them to be regenerated. The regeneration is the cause of their faith and repentance, not vice versa. And their stony heart is unable to produce faith and repentance like they claim it is.

The bible says no man can come to JESUS unless the Father who sent JESUS draws them and JESUS IS the WORD of GOD and HE brought GRACE and TRUTH but since man loves darkness how did you come to the cross?

 

[Whispered]

well the thing is we are all actually in the same boat

no one is a 'not sinner' and Jesus died for all

no matter how hard someone may try to fit the entire Bible into the TULIP thingy, it just does not get off the ground

it is one of the most ridiculous teachings we have floating around IMO

and now we have people with no blood and people making up stuff bout that smh

I don't know.

I do know what you mean. Sixty-six pages of back and forth that goes nowhere. The TULIP faithful will not budge, the Christian hopes to get through to those who follow TULIP, and we should know we never will. Those that profess TULIP , as you have seen I'm sure, and don't appear to actually know Calvinism nor Reformed Theology, are in this thread for reasons known to them.
Those who think Jesus died only for those the Father gave Him will never be convinced by the scriptures of 1st Timothy 4:10, or, John 3:16, to list just two words of God that tell us Jesus died to save whoever would believe in Him, because He took the sins of the world upon Himself on the cross.

People who adhere to TULIP's God will have to find out in the end when the one final word speaks eternally to their fate.
Perhaps, as I like to think I did not waste my time prior to now, those who are looking for the truth of God in Christ will happen upon your posts, mine, and other Christian's here and at least know not to follow TULIP, Calvinism or Reformed Theology doctrine that embraces TULIP. (What a god, TULIP did make. Creating Totally Depraved future peoples for its own sake. No free will, no capacity to choose, yet if they be elected though, dragged kicking and screaming by it into its grace and faith, the lie assures their soul they shall lose. )
Jesus died to save a people from the likes of TULIP's pagan god. Not lead them to it.
This thread bears no good fruit for me at this point. It shall be what it shall be.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

By the way, repentance and faith is a necessary fruit of salvation. It doesn't cause salvation.

But, those who claim repentance is not a necessary fruit of salvation have serious issues.

Free Grace Movement churches and Grace Evangelical Society, as well as various non-Reformed Baptists make these sort of claims. Stephen Anderson would be another one.

They claim repentance in a biblical sense is not needed. Sometimes they will claim they believe in repentance but it is mere intellectual assent. These guys false teachers.

You have said that you are acquainted with what the Primitive Baptist believe, if so, you know that we do not believe that all of the salvation scriptures pertain to eternal salvation. Salvation by Greek translation means "a deliverance". There is an eternal deliverance and there is a timely deliverance that the born again child receives while he sojourns here on earth. The natural man will not repent of breaking a spiritual law that he cannot discern until he has been born of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the new birth. When a born again child of God commits a sin he does not lose his eternal inheritance, but he loses his fellowship with God because God will not fellowship with sin. When a born again child of God is pricked in his fleshy heart by the Holy Spirit and made to feel guilty, then he repents and when God forgives him he has been delivered (saved) from the consequences of the sin to a fellowship with God again. Another scripture that we differ in our interpretation off is Matt 7:13-14 - We interpret the strait gate and narrow way that leads to life and there be few that find it, as the life has reference to that good and abundant life that God has promised his elect if they are are preaching and teaching the meat of the gospel of Jesus and following his commandments. Those who enter the wide gate are also the elect who are still babes in Christ and are going about trying to establish their own righteousness by their good works and are in need of being taught the meat of the word that the only righteousness that they have is the imputed righteousness of Christ. We believe that repentance saves (delivers) you here in time which has nothing to do with your eternal salvation. otherwise it would be eternal deliverance by the works of repentance.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Those who have rejected God’s word. That’s why he’ll has been enlarged. It was not God’s will that any man should go there.

God, by his foreknowledge knew that no man would seek him and the righteousness of all mankind was as filthy rags. That is why he choose an elect amount of people to give to Jesus for the purpose of adopting them in which Christ paid the adoption price by taking their sins upon himself and paying the debt in full. From the beginning, God knew who would go to hell.

 

[fredoheaven]

1 Corinthians 1:26-31? Study it out.

The only reason any are saved is because God predestined and elected to save whom he wills, Romans 8:26ff, Ephesians 1 &c; Romans 9. Since you've claimed the classic "anti evangelistic" accusation you may want to read and study how Paul the Calvinist saw and was confident in evangelization because God has his people, the elect, out there whom he will save; Acts 18:9-10; 2 Timothy 2:8-10.

Why you are filled with half-truths? In 1 Corinthians 1 why left the very important context following verses 18-21. Scripture of truth will not fail. Paul's preaching of the cross is not based on worldly wisdom. his main purpose of preaching the gospel is 'to save them that believe' and this will harmonize with Romans 1:16 that the power of God unto salvation is the preaching of the gospel of Christ 'to every one that believeth'. So it takes to believe or not to believe. At the same time, Paul says in v2 that the Corinth believers are sanctified called to be saints with all that in every place call upon the name of the Lord. Paul in the book of Romans 10: 9-13 correlates this passage. It speaks about "whosoever" shall call upon the name of the Lord. And the rest of mention scriptures can be explained according to its context as usual.

1 Corinthians 1:18-21 King James Version (KJV)
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.


Romans 1:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

1 Corinthians 1:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

omans 10:8-13 King James Version (KJV)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[preacher4truth]

Why you are filled with half-truths? In 1 Corinthians 1 why left the very important context following verses 18-21. .

Not only are you being disingenuous, you're being silly. Why are you filled with half truths? Why leave out 1 Corinthians 1:1-17 and it's very important context?

Not to mention you didn't even address the truths in the passage I provided. The Scripture there is very clear: God chose (elected), not man. God get's all the glory, not man. It is because of God, not because of man,k so that none would boast.

But you're still boasting, but not in God, because somehow you think you did it by believing.

Nothing in the balance of your myopic post countered anything I offered, nor did it negate any of it.

 

[preacher4truth]

If you were marked for salvation before the foundation of the world, then there was never a time when you were an enemy of God.

Not remotely true, even those marked out to be in Christ by His purpose, Ephesians 1, were, according to Ephesians 2:3 under God's wrath. Romans 5:10 is another text that shows we were enemies of God in time.

But you've stated you were never his enemy by assertion in other posts.

Scripture, that is, what God has revealed, begs to differ from your account.

 

[fredoheaven]

Not only are you being disingenuous, you're being silly. Why are you filled with half truths? Why leave out 1 Corinthians 1:1-17 and it's very important context?

Not to mention you didn't even address the truths in the passage I provided. The Scripture there is very clear: God chose (elected), not man. God get's all the glory, not man. It is because of God, not because of man,k so that none would boast.

But you're still boasting, but not in God, because somehow you think you did it by believing.

Nothing in the balance of your myopic post countered anything I offered, nor did it negate any of it.

Umm, I have used scripture, you simply ignore 'whosoever'. Nop, whose boasting? Now, we'll try to consider your other scripture citation of Romans 8:26, but we will make by the context to properly understand what the verse means.

The believers are expected to suffer just like their Saviour who suffered. There is no exception for the whole creation groans and travails in pain. So that the Holy Spirit works in the prayer life of every believer, the Holy Spirit also helpeth in spite of our infirmities. This groaning that we cannot utter which the Holy Ghost intercede because of the grief or pain. This has nothing to do with the salvation of our soul. To stretch out this has something to do with the redemption of our physical body. The rest you need somehow to explain the sense, not quote them. You know it is easy to pick scriptures but be sure to make us understand.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

Does God show favor to certain people? Yes. Noah found grace. God gives grace to the humble. Everyone knows God has shown special grace to certain men in the Bible and its His right to do so.

But does God extend favor unconditionally? He can do so, but it is not always the case

Isaiah 66:2b
These are the ones I look on with favor:
those who are humble and contrite in spirit,
and who tremble at my word.

A person who has repented is NOT boasting, by default if a man is boasting "I chose God, in my great wisdom I repented" that shows they have not repented. There is nothing to boast about, you have violated God's law, and He is giving you a way in, out of pure unmerited grace, He doesn't have to do it, but He does because of His love. It is not unconditional however, faith and repentance are required to enter the kingdom, I do not believe anyone would dispute that, knowing the Bible teaches that from cover to cover

 

[John146]

God, by his foreknowledge knew that no man would seek him and the righteousness of all mankind was as filthy rags. That is why he choose an elect amount of people to give to Jesus for the purpose of adopting them in which Christ paid the adoption price by taking their sins upon himself and paying the debt in full. From the beginning, God knew who would go to hell.

Explanation without Scripture.